Did Ralph Already Grant Toronto An Option To Buy?

[Captain Caveman]

Waaah, I want Ralph's guarantee.

 

I can **** in a box and stamp a guaranteed sticker on it.

[GG]

1. But I thought that no NFL team loses money and that just having a franchise is a money making machine?

 

That's why the operative word was "could" If you followed the discussion surrounding Easterbrook's piece, you would know that some owners stumbled onto the Max Bialistock business model in the NFL - you can make more money by putting out drek. OTOH, if the new owners want to build a serious contender, it will cost them out of pocket for a few years until they build the base.

 

2. How do you know this? Where has it been said that Rogers Communications is unhappy with series? Last thing I heard was that they were talking about working on a deal to continue it

 

They make like the series, but the economics stink for them, and I imagine the shareholders aren't happy. If there's a next deal, it won't be as one-sided in Bills' favor.

[apuszczalowski]

Waaah, I want Ralph's guarantee.

 

I can **** in a box and stamp a guaranteed sticker on it.

Ralph has given the fans a guarantee, he has guaranteed that as long as he is alive, he will be the owner and keep them in Buffalo. After that there is no way to give the fans what they want because he can't control who has the kind of money to invest in the team and that the ones that can will guarantee they stay in Buffalo. Outside of Terry Pegula, who else in WNY has $800 million +/- to invest in buying an NFL team? Golisano? If you thought Ralph was cheap and a penny pincher, you will call his time as owner the good old free spending days, cause while Golisano owned the Sabres, it was all about breaking even. As for Pegula, he bought the Sabres and threw money around because he is a HUGE Sabres fan, haven't heard anything about him being a football fan at all. Jim kelly doesn't have anywhere near the kind of money to buy them, so he better have some GOOD investors with deep pockets. Outside of WNY, the Jacobs family would have to do some selling or re-arranging cause they can't own them if they own the Bruins, and a guy like Warren Buffett isn't going to be interested in a football team at his age

[Bills!Win!]

The bills will not be moving to toronto for 3 reasons.

 

1. That stadium in Toronto sucks

2. The fans in Canada/Toronto are the worst football fans ever

3. You would see the biggest riot/depression in America held in all of Western NY

Edited August 26, 2011 by Bills!Win!

[apuszczalowski]

That's why the operative word was "could" If you followed the discussion surrounding Easterbrook's piece, you would know that some owners stumbled onto the Max Bialistock business model in the NFL - you can make more money by putting out drek. OTOH, if the new owners want to build a serious contender, it will cost them out of pocket for a few years until they build the base.

 

 

 

They make like the series, but the economics stink for them, and I imagine the shareholders aren't happy. If there's a next deal, it won't be as one-sided in Bills' favor.

How would it cost them money out of pocket? From what I hear around this board, its impossible to not be making money, because the TV deal is enough to cover the salary cap, and that doesn't include revenue sharing if your not selling out.

[GG]

How would it cost them money out of pocket? From what I hear around this board, its impossible to not be making money, because the TV deal is enough to cover the salary cap, and that doesn't include revenue sharing if your not selling out.

 

From your posting history, it's obvious that you have selective hearing, so I can see why you hear what you want to hear and not what people say.

[dpberr]

A question. Who are the "Toronto" businessmen?

 

I don't see Scotiabank (involved in the trust that operates Rogers Corp.) being interested whatsoever in buying an NFL team when they have to contend with owning a nearly unprofitable baseball team.

[Haven Moses]

I enjoy reading this stuff.

 

I think that a lot of this revolves around tax law. What costs Ralphie more, capital gains or estate taxes?

[Got_Wood]

This isn't a comedy thread - - far from it. Could Toronto businessmen already have either an outright option to purchase the franchise or a right-of-first-refusal to match anybody else's offer to buy the franchise - - both triggered by Ralph's death? Could they have such rights either with or without having already purchased a minority ownership interest in Buffalo Bills, Inc.?

 

I would actually LIKE people to shoot this theory down if they can - - I'm not claiming it's actually happened, but I'm having difficulty seeing why it's not plausible.

 

It's easier to understand the rationale for this theory if I lay some facts out in roughly chronological order:

 

1. It's beyond dispute that the Buffalo NFL franchise is actually owned by Buffalo Bills, Inc. - - a New York Corporation. The Brady suit made ownership allegations that NFL court pleadings, including those filed in the 8th Circuit, have confirmed. I've previously posted a link to official New York State corporation records showing that Ralph Wilson is connected to that same company. If anybody wants proof I'll go back and dig up the links upon request.

 

2. The NFL Constitution and Bylaws (as amended through 2006 which is the most recent version I've been able to find online), establishes a few more facts:

 

(a) The "Home Territory" of the Buffalo franchise, as that term is defined in Article IV, Section 4.1, at page 14/292 of the Constitution and Bylaws, extends for 75 miles in every direction from the corporate limits of the City of Buffalo. This "Home Territory" therefore includes Toronto.

 

(b) The Constitution and Bylaws, at Article IV, section 4.2© at page 15/292, prohibits any other NFL club from playing a game within the home territory of the Buffalo franchise unless the Buffalo team is a participant in the game.

 

© Notwithstanding the above, per Article III, section 3.1(B) at page 5/292, a new Toronto team could be admitted into the league if 24 of the 32 team owners vote in favor of doing so.

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

 

3. On August 29, 2005 Hurricane Katrina hits New Orleans, damaging the Superdome and creating speculation about the future of the Saints franchise in New Orleans.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina

 

4. "Early in September 2006 Canada ’s two most important sports entities began the process that might one day create one of the largest sports ownership groups in North America ..."

 

There are people with money, or access to money, in Toronto who have wanted, for a long time, to buy an NFL team and have it play games in Toronto. See this October 12, 2007 posting of an article apparently originally written by Howard Bloom for Sports Business News - it gives some background about several Toronto businessmen and their interest in bringing the NFL to Toronto:

 

http://sportsbiznews.blogspot.com/2007/10/nfl-expansion-to-canada-will-not.html

 

5. According to SI's Peter King, an otherwise unidentified Canadian consortium made an offer to buy the Saints for a billion dollars that was turned down by the Saints' ownership. A Toronto newspaper speculates, in an article published on September 25, 2006, that the consortium was probably a group from Toronto.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/archives/article843833.ece

 

6. In an interview with the Buffalo Evening News that took place no later than June 17, 2007, Ralph Wilson confirmed for the umpteenth time that the team will be sold upon his death. He also said that he would not leave the team to his wife. Perhaps significantly in my view, this is the very last time that I can find any public comments by Ralph Wilson where he was willing to say much of anything specific about what would happen to the team after his death. I have seen lots of articles saying the team will be sold after Ralph's death to the highest bidder, but NEVER with quotation marks indicating that Ralph actually said the words "to the highest bidder." I think that's significant, because IF Toronto businessmen already own an option to purchase or a right-of-first-refusal the team WOULD be sold AFTER Ralph's death - - just not necessarily as the result of a bidding process. As far as I can tell, all the articles reporting that the team will be sold to the highest bidder are just assuming that there will be a bidding process because that's the most common way for assets to be sold after someone's death. But I don't see why an outstanding option to buy or right-of-first-refusal would be inconsistent with the exact phrasing of any statement RW has made at any time since the 5 year Toronto Series was announced.

 

"Also out of the question, according to Wilson, is the prospect of selling part of the team to a Western New Yorker while he’s still alive in order to perhaps give that person an advantage in eventually taking over the club. “That’s absolutely out,” he said."

 

http://www.nflgridirongab.com/2007/06/17/ralph-wilson-says-he-wont-sell-the-bills/

 

7. "In October 2007, Bills owner Ralph Wilson petitioned NFL owners to allow his team to play one “home” game per year (over five years) in Canada."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bills_Toronto_Series

 

[Editorial note - - I don't consider Wikipedia very authoritative but I could not immediately find anything else specifying this date in the chronology]

 

8. The 5 year Bills in Toronto Series deal was announced by Ralph Wilson and Ted Rogers on February 2, 2008. The deal runs through and includes the 2012 season. "The deal with the Bills wouldn't preclude Rogers and Tanenbaum from making bids to buy and relocate other NFL franchises if they go up for sale."

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bills/2008-02-06-toronto_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

 

9. Here's Erie County Executive Collins' press conference after the announcement:

 

youtube.com/watch?v=jB14wCG6KxM

 

10. Here's the Bills' stadium lease with Erie County. It expires on July 31, 2013. So the last regular season games it covers are the ones played in the 2012 NFL season.

 

http://www.erie.gov/billslease/stadium.phtml

 

11. Whoever owns the Bills franchise (either before or after Ralph Wilson's death), can exercise an escape clause by paying a fee to buy out the remaining term of the stadium lease if they choose to do so.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2003/03/03/story2.html?page=1

 

 

12. On or about December 3, 2008, shortly before the Bills play the first regular season game in the Toronto Series, and shortly after the death of Ted Rogers, ESPN.com reports - -

 

" Rogers Communications was the creation of Ted Rogers, who as a law student built his holdings in an FM radio station into a wireless and cable empire that employs 24,000 and is worth an estimated $18 billion. Rogers Communications already owns the Blue Jays, the Rogers Centre and the Argonauts of the Canadian Football League. The death of Rogers, at 75, on Tuesday -- five days before the first NFL regular-season game was to be played in his building -- might not have a big impact on a potential move by the Bills.

 

Phil Lind, the Rogers vice chairman and a huge Cleveland Browns fan, is said to be the driving force behind the push for the NFL. Rogers has the diversity and the cash flow to spend the $1 billion it would take to buy the franchise. Certainly, the $78 million U.S. price tag to effectively lease those eight games is a powerful sign of interest."

 

13. The same December 3, 2008 ESPN.com report also stated:

 

"Buffalo fans have been nervous since the Bills signed an offseason deal worth $78 million with Rogers Communications that will take the Bills to Toronto for eight games, three of them preseason contests, over a span of five years. There were rumors that the deal included a right-of-first-refusal clause when the team is sold, but that hasn't been confirmed."

 

[Editorial note - - I would love to see somebody ask RW if anybody already has a right-of-first-refusal or option to buy the franchise and get a direct, responsive answer]

 

14. Although there are valid reasons to doubt his credibility, some time between January, 2011 and May 11, 2011 Doug Ford, a Toronto councilman, claimed in an interview, when discussing the seating limitations of the Rogers Center, that "he has spoken with officials at Rogers communication about digging down to add an additional 15,000 seats. The renovations wouldn’t cost taxpayers a dime and furthermore, he added, thousands of jobs would be created.

 

“(The NFL) can’t keep ignoring a market this size,” Ford said.

 

And what about scarce turnout when the Buffalo Bills occasionally play in town?

 

“If we had our own team,” Ford told the Score, “we’d treat it like it’s our own and build up a fan base.”

 

There is a “big difference.”

 

http://www.thestar.com/mobile/NEWS/article/987073

 

[editorial note - this guy might just be a shill but I included his comments here because I had not seen the idea to expand the Rogers Center posted here before - - maybe I just missed it and I don't know how plausible "digging down" is]

 

15. There is some precedent for an NFL owner granting someone an option to buy the franchise at a future date. There may be other examples, but it's undeniable that a former owner of the New England Patriots once did this. See paragraphs 71-74 (under the heading "The Murray Option") of this otherwise long and complex court opinion:

 

http://openjurist.org/34/f3d/1091/sullivan-ii-v-national-football-league

 

Somebody please convince me that there's no possible way that anyone in Toronto already has a right-of-first-refusal or outright option to buy the Buffalo NFL franchise upon Ralph Wilson's death, because I want the Bills to stay in Buffalo.

 

Thanks, that's a great summary of the events that have occurred. Oddly, it is starting to feel more and more like this move is inevitable. Toronto will eventually get a team, and I can't see any other franchise outside of Buffalo being the one that gets selected. The pieces just fit a little too perfectly. Unfortunately for Bills fans, everyone has to sit and wait until Ralph Wilson passes away.

[bigdogtim]

You do not accumulate the amount of wealth Ralph Wilson has without good and trusted financial advisors. Presumably there is some sort of sophisticated estate planning scheme in place to maximize the amount of wealth retained by the family upon his passing. This does not make him uncaring, but prudent.

 

While we all wish and hope that he has the best interests of our region at heart, at the end of the day, business is business and family is family. I am sure that he is as proud of his business accomplishments as each of us are of our own, but as any good business consultant will tell you, you are your own best client and the one who always should get paid first. To expect any less of him is wishful thinking. After all, would you take anything away from your family to give to me, or any other TSW poster?

[Red_Tory]

The bills will not be moving to toronto for 3 reasons.

 

1. That stadium in Toronto sucks

2. The fans in Canada/Toronto are the worst football fans ever

3. You would see the biggest riot/depression in America held in all of Western NY

 

 

 

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response?

 

How can you guys allow such an unfair sweeping generalization of a group that make up %15-%20 of each home gate (and I strongly suspect an even higher % if it's broken down by premium expensive seats and coroporate luxury boxes)??????

 

I've got to say I have had enough.

 

I was always that guy who would always tell any friends up here that no way, I dont want the Bills to move to TO, in fact likely would be so opposed to that, that Id end up rooting for a different team.

 

But the general anti-Toronto, anti-Canadian attitude is just too much for me. In case you hadn't taken a few moments to think this over, it's not as if the types of business people who could attract an NFL team to Toronto are consulting extensively with Canadian based Bills fans to ask if we think the team should be relocated to Toronto. Hello.

 

Email was sent around late last week planning for the 3 group trips we usually take to Buffalo. About 8-12 of us have been going for years. We grab a bunch of others, have a great time, and end up with a modest cheque to hand over to the Rotary Club each year.

 

Not this year for me. I forwarded the above post to the email group up here, and expressed that I was no longer a part. I will be a Canadian football fan who sucks, and keep my money up here. About five of the old school fellows agree - we will be gathering instead at a local pub (Wild Wings - St. Laurent location) to cheer on this ridiculously awful football team, because as much as id like ot be able to just pick a new team, this is my team and has been since I was a little kid.

 

I will be putting the money aside for when Toronto (4th largest market in North America) gets its NFL team. If it's the Bills, so be it - in my view you will have brought this on yourselves because of your unwillingness to cooperate with your Canadian fan base.

 

Enjoy professional Lacrosse.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[Delete This Account]

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response?

 

How can you guys allow such an unfair sweeping generalization of a group that make up %15-%20 of each home gate (and I strongly suspect an even higher % if it's broken down by premium expensive seats and coroporate luxury boxes)??????

 

I've got to say I have had enough.

 

I was always that guy who would always tell any friends up here that no way, I dont want the Bills to move to TO, in fact likely would be so opposed to that, that Id end up rooting for a different team.

 

But the general anti-Toronto, anti-Canadian attitude is just too much for me. In case you hadn't taken a few moments to think this over, it's not as if the types of business people who could attract an NFL team to Toronto are consulting extensively with Canadian based Bills fans to ask if we think the team should be relocated to Toronto. Hello.

 

Email was sent around late last week planning for the 3 group trips we usually take to Buffalo. About 8-12 of us have been going for years. We grab a bunch of others, have a great time, and end up with a modest cheque to hand over to the Rotary Club each year.

 

Not this year for me. I forwarded the above post to the email group up here, and expressed that I was no longer a part. I will be a Canadian football fan who sucks, and keep my money up here. About five of the old school fellows agree - we will be gathering instead at a local pub (Wild Wings - St. Laurent location) to cheer on this ridiculously awful football team, because as much as id like ot be able to just pick a new team, this is my team and has been since I was a little kid.

 

I will be putting the money aside for when Toronto (4th largest market in North America) gets its NFL team. If it's the Bills, so be it - in my view you will have brought this on yourselves because of your unwillingness to cooperate with your Canadian fan base.

 

Enjoy professional Lacrosse.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

you doth protest a little too much. though i agree there is a hamhanded and questionable anti-canadian undercurrent among a few thick yahoos on this board, the post in question was fair.

 

the rogers centre is a bad facility for football.

 

fans at Bills-in-Toronto games have had a habit of sitting on their hands, and rooting for the opposing team. it's a sterile, lifeless environment that is nothing like the atmosphere at Ralph WIlson Stadium. c'mon, you say you've attended games here, you have to admit that there's a vast difference between the two sites.

 

and you don't think Western New Yorkers won't be upset if the Bills relocate. look, i'm not sure about rioting, but things won't be pretty.

 

as you can't resist from taking a shot in regards to pro lacrosse, i'll provide my own retort in regards to professional hockey. the Maple Leafs haven't been and still aren't very good. so, good luck with that, eh?

 

jw

Edited August 28, 2011 by john wawrow

[dave mcbride]

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response?

 

How can you guys allow such an unfair sweeping generalization of a group that make up %15-%20 of each home gate (and I strongly suspect an even higher % if it's broken down by premium expensive seats and coroporate luxury boxes)??????

 

I've got to say I have had enough.

 

I was always that guy who would always tell any friends up here that no way, I dont want the Bills to move to TO, in fact likely would be so opposed to that, that Id end up rooting for a different team.

 

But the general anti-Toronto, anti-Canadian attitude is just too much for me. In case you hadn't taken a few moments to think this over, it's not as if the types of business people who could attract an NFL team to Toronto are consulting extensively with Canadian based Bills fans to ask if we think the team should be relocated to Toronto. Hello.

 

Email was sent around late last week planning for the 3 group trips we usually take to Buffalo. About 8-12 of us have been going for years. We grab a bunch of others, have a great time, and end up with a modest cheque to hand over to the Rotary Club each year.

 

Not this year for me. I forwarded the above post to the email group up here, and expressed that I was no longer a part. I will be a Canadian football fan who sucks, and keep my money up here. About five of the old school fellows agree - we will be gathering instead at a local pub (Wild Wings - St. Laurent location) to cheer on this ridiculously awful football team, because as much as id like ot be able to just pick a new team, this is my team and has been since I was a little kid.

 

I will be putting the money aside for when Toronto (4th largest market in North America) gets its NFL team. If it's the Bills, so be it - in my view you will have brought this on yourselves because of your unwillingness to cooperate with your Canadian fan base.

 

Enjoy professional Lacrosse.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

You're seriously going to give up Bills tickets because of what one anonymous person said on an internet message board?!?

Edited August 28, 2011 by dave mcbride

[BillyBaroo]

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response?

 

How can you guys allow such an unfair sweeping generalization of a group that make up %15-%20 of each home gate (and I strongly suspect an even higher % if it's broken down by premium expensive seats and coroporate luxury boxes)??????

 

I've got to say I have had enough.

 

I was always that guy who would always tell any friends up here that no way, I dont want the Bills to move to TO, in fact likely would be so opposed to that, that Id end up rooting for a different team.

 

But the general anti-Toronto, anti-Canadian attitude is just too much for me. In case you hadn't taken a few moments to think this over, it's not as if the types of business people who could attract an NFL team to Toronto are consulting extensively with Canadian based Bills fans to ask if we think the team should be relocated to Toronto. Hello.

 

Email was sent around late last week planning for the 3 group trips we usually take to Buffalo. About 8-12 of us have been going for years. We grab a bunch of others, have a great time, and end up with a modest cheque to hand over to the Rotary Club each year.

 

Not this year for me. I forwarded the above post to the email group up here, and expressed that I was no longer a part. I will be a Canadian football fan who sucks, and keep my money up here. About five of the old school fellows agree - we will be gathering instead at a local pub (Wild Wings - St. Laurent location) to cheer on this ridiculously awful football team, because as much as id like ot be able to just pick a new team, this is my team and has been since I was a little kid.

 

I will be putting the money aside for when Toronto (4th largest market in North America) gets its NFL team. If it's the Bills, so be it - in my view you will have brought this on yourselves because of your unwillingness to cooperate with your Canadian fan base.

 

Enjoy professional Lacrosse.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

I for one hope you come back to the games - I have always admired how tough the Canadians were to drive that far, take time to buy their hamburgers across the border because of some silly regulation on Canadian beef, and of course to make sure all of their citizens have access to health care. My experience is that we are welcoming at the games, we need all the fans we can get and you don't really want to root for the Rough Riders anyways

[Red_Tory]

JW - I dont think I protest enough. Obviously the Bills are convinced there is no problem - but in your own post, where you point out that Rogers Centre often has fans of visiting teams in the seats is the best argument yet for my case.

 

Rogers Centre is clearly not ideal for the NFL. It's not even good for baseball, no question. In fairness it was also designed in the mid 80's, and the focus was on the concept of a retractable roof. About 10 mins after SkyDome opened we started to see a new era of old school style parks in Baltimore and Arlington. unfortunate timing.

 

On the other hand NFL isnt really a 'bums in the seats' driven leaugue.

 

As for the fan base in TO - things are different than when I grew up. I could watch either the Bills here on tv, or the Lions or Browns. Now all that's changed. Expanded coverage makes it much easier to be a fan of the team of ones choosing. We can interact with fans of other teams quite easily. news about teams is readil available. It's easy to be a fan now.

 

TO fans will never be the raise the roof off the stadium types - but they do show up, and they do support the team purchasing merchandise etc. If the seats at Rogers Centre arent filled with Bills fans - thats on the organization. It's not like we are born with an obligation to cheer for the Bills.

 

And i certainly wont miss also the constant digs at the Maple Leafs.

 

Dave - of course not. But the experience for me has been going downhill pretty steadily since Flutie and 9/11. I am just saying, its a free country and based on the quality of my last few experiences, its time for me to move along to something else. It used to be a great road trip. And its purely a Buffalo thing. I still can enjoy a Tigers or Indians baseball game - even wearing a Jays cap, no one treats me like ive brought the plague with me.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[Malazan]

Internet is serious business.

Edited August 28, 2011 by jeremy2020

[dave mcbride]

JW - I dont think I protest enough. Obviously the Bills are convinced there is no problem - but in your own post, where you point out that Rogers Centre often has fans of visiting teams in the seats is the best argument yet for my case.

 

Rogers Centre is clearly not ideal for the NFL. It's not even good for baseball, no question. In fairness it was also designed in the mid 80's, and the focus was on the concept of a retractable roof. About 10 mins after SkyDome opened we started to see a new era of old school style parks in Baltimore and Arlington. unfortunate timing.

 

On the other hand NFL isnt really a 'bums in the seats' driven leaugue.

 

As for the fan base in TO - things are different than when I grew up. I could watch either the Bills here on tv, or the Lions or Browns. Now all that's changed. Expanded coverage makes it much easier to be a fan of the team of ones choosing. We can interact with fans of other teams quite easily. news about teams is readil available. It's easy to be a fan now.

 

TO fans will never be the raise the roof off the stadium types - but they do show up, and they do support the team purchasing merchandise etc. If the seats at Rogers Centre arent filled with Bills fans - thats on the organization. It's not like we are born with an obligation to cheer for the Bills.

 

And i certainly wont miss also the constant digs at the Maple Leafs.

 

Dave - of course not. But the experience for me has been going downhill pretty steadily since Flutie and 9/11. I am just saying, its a free country and based on the quality of my last few experiences, its time for me to move along to something else. It used to be a great road trip. And its purely a Buffalo thing. I still can enjoy a Tigers or Indians baseball game - even wearing a Jays cap, no one treats me like ive brought the plague with me.

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

Chris: Fair point, and it's too bad that the yahoo element is so pronounced at the Ralph. I haven't been to a game in ages (I live in NYC now), so I have no idea. Incidentally, I was in Toronto for work two years ago and got to see a couple of Yankees/Jays games (including a Halliday three-hit shutout). The weather was beautiful and I was with friends, but the atmosphere was poor. I imagine it was different in the early 90s. It's too bad because the Jays aren't a bad team. They're usually at least solid, although it's of course a brutal division. Put them in the NL, and they'd be a perennial playoff contender.

Edited August 28, 2011 by dave mcbride

[Red_Tory]

Chris: Fair point, and it's too bad that the yahoo element is so pronounced at the Ralph. I haven't been to a game in ages (I live in NYC now), so I have no idea. Incidentally, I was in Toronto for work two years ago and got to see a couple of Yankees/Jays games (including a Halliday three-hit shutout). The weather was beautiful and I was with friends, but the atmosphere was poor. I imagine it was different in the early 90s. It's too bad because the Jays aren't a bad team. They're usually at least solid, although it's of course a brutal division. Put them in the NL, and they'd be a perennial playoff contender.

 

 

I am a hige Jays fan. I'd like to be able to tell you the atmosphere was a lot better back in the day, but really the only difference would be attributable to the fact that from '89 when it opened, until the strike, it was sold out almost every night.

 

Its also fun when the Evil Empire or the Champions of all New England visit town - their fans tend to take over the stadium, and good natured interaction can be counted on. Makes the experience fun.

 

TO is just not a basbeall town. Fans will come out, but basically it has to be viewed as the in thing to do. I like the direction the organization is moving in, and think the team will be competitive in 2013.

 

But look, it's not a football town either. However it is a huge market, most of it filled with people with more money than brains, and i say that in a good natured way. A lot of these people need a 'home team' to support. The clear natural fit to fill that need are the Bills in Buffalo.

[bklnpete]

Maybe you should try sleeping before you're dead. A switch to decaf maybe?

[RunTheBall]

Why does TBD allow posts like this, or even this topic in general - its needlessly divisive and totally unproductive. Better yet, how does a communiy full of active posters allow such an ignorant comment without some kind of response?

 

Ok, let me get this straight. A few yahoos on an anonymous internet fan site make some mild anti-canadian comments. This offends you to such a degree that you forward that message to some friends and use that as an excuse not to come to games anymore. Sounds like you were leaning that way anyway (long drive, border isn't as easy to cross, whatever..) and found this a convenient target to vent about your perceived status as a second class Bills fan.

 

Look, we all suck. We have invested way too much emotion, time, and cash into a clearly inferior product for way too long for rational people. If you want to take your Loonies and go home because some anonymous internet tough guy hurt your feelings, so be it. You may be Canadian, but you are a Bills fan, and you can't suck anymore than the rest of us do. You are the Chris Kelsay to our Freddie Jackson, but you are still a Bills fan. So buck up little camper, everything is going to be ok. We are still going to suck, and you are still going to make the team because you are a high motor, never give up fan.

 

RTB