Ralph talks to the NY Daily News

[K-9]

Really, you must have short memory. Lets see 75 million from Toronto and adding no elite level free agents, 25 million under the cap when they had one and been under the cap for awhile, Russ Brandon as GM because you don't want hire (costs money)one to actually draft good players, how about letting Butler go because he was to cheap or trying to screw Wade out of his last year or letting our good players leave in free agency (Peters, Winfield, Williams etc)Driving Jim Kelly away because he could get more in the USFL, "Tom Cousineau was drafted first overall in the 1979 NFL Draft by the Buffalo Bills, who acquired the pick from the San Francisco 49ers in a trade for O.J. Simpson. Cousineau never played a game with the Bills. He instead signed with the Canadian Football League Montreal Alouettes where they offered double the money that the Bills originally offered" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cousineau

 

Do I really need to go on?

 

Please, do go on. I'm enjoying the revisionist history.

 

1.) Please revisit the Butler resignation. Butler didn't leave because RW was too cheap. Period.

 

2.) Peters was never a free agent. Winfield, Pat Williams, and Clements didn't leave because RW was cheap. They left because they didn't want to be here and, secondly, because the GM and coaches at the time made the decision. Can't hang that on Ralph. I know it would have been better to make Clements the best paid DB in history. Right.

 

3.) Kelly didn't go to the USFL because of more money. He went because the Bills sucked, especially on OLine. Why no mention that RW made him the one of the highest paid QBs in the league when he came to Buffalo in 1986?

 

4.) I'm very well aware of the Cousineau situation. It was less about money than it was feeling disrespected. But, again, no mention that RW signed Cousineau to a contract that made him the highest paid defensive player in football upon his return to the NFL. All that said, you gotta like what they parlayed Cousineau into. Then again, maybe not.

 

As for the Toronto deal and the 75m. Please list all the FAs that the Bills should have signed and then convince me they wanted to be in Buffalo in the first place. Also, please tell me why anyone would expect the Bills to throw good money after FAs when they were recently burned for doing just that. Dockery, record contract; Langston Walker, 25mil.

 

As for the Bills' and being under the cap. So what? Does spending at or near the cap make you a better team? Please research the numbers before answering. As for a cash to cap accounting method, ask the Steelers how that works for them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[clancynut]

Spend a little time at SabreSpace.com and read their forum, especially posters named DeLuca, Ghost of Dwight Drane and PA Sabres Fan. I think the honeymoon lasted all of 20 minutes with those 3.

 

PTR

 

You mean there was a honeymoon with those three?

[K-9]

Can any of you (or Ralph) explain how the economic woes of the Buffalo area have caused or resulted in Ralph's inability to put a playoff caliber team on the field for over a decade? What, exactly, is the connection? Wilson has been doing very well in Buffalo despite the local economy--yet he's still trying to pretend otherwise in the press. It's bizarre, and a bit sad.

 

Also, Ralph's vote against the last CBA has been spun in an infinite number of ways by his sycophants here. Yet the revenue sharing of that CBA provided an unprecedented windfall in corporate welfare for low revenue teams. The amount was more than double the previous amount. My guess is Ralph was worried that, given the Bills yearly high profit margin, he would be shut out of the free money.

 

Another tired (and false) claim is that Ralph could have "made a lot more money" moving the team. How? Where--Baltimore? Cleveland? Indy? Someone above even suggested.....LA! Talk about clueless.

 

Ralph has already admitted he messed things up the past decade--why doubt him?

 

1.) RW never said that the economic conditions in Buffalo have resulted in the Bills not making the playoffs since last century. He's simply said all along that Buffalo's economy puts them at a disadvantage economically and competitively. It does. That's the reality. Still he says they'll "be all right" and he points the finger at bad decisions being the reason they're not winning.

 

2.) You seem misinformed about why RW voted against the last CBA. Please provide a link to that portion of the last CBA that specifically defines the qualifiers for supplemental revenue sharing. Also, please expound on the ramifications of a high revenue team, like Dallas, generating say 30m in stadium naming rights. I'll start. Since the salary caps and floors are based on revenues generated by ALL teams, the player expenses for lower revenue teams just increased. Unprecedented windfall revenue shares, indeed. Bottom line is that NOWHERE in published team valuations and accompanying team financial data (Forbes is the one I use) are these record revenue shares reflected. The gap between high revenue teams and low revenue teams has GROWN since the last CBA and all that revenue sharing. But RW was just worried about missing out. Right.

 

3.) If team A spends 34% of total revenues on player expenses and team B spends 62% of total revenues on player expenses who has the advantage? If team A has 143m in operating income and team B has 28m in operating income, who has the advantage? Please weigh those ramifications of ALL REVENUES INCREASING PLAYER EXPENSES FOR ALL TEAMS as indicated above.

 

Your disdain for RW and his "cheapness" is well chronicled here. But please make an effort to do some honest research into why he feels the way he does. And why many in the media, not to mention around the league, have come around to his concerns.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Lurker]

The point is we aren't leaving just like them.

Who's "them?"

 

Ralph is just making excuses not to invest in the team.

 

Revenue/cash flow is the great un-equalizer when it comes to "investing" in an NFL team. The differential between the Cowboys/Skins and Bills/Lions is huge, giving those teams a major advantage when dangling signing bonus money in front of FAs or front loading contracts. They can write a check from petty cash, rather than dipping into the owners' pocket.

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_NFL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html

 

Cash flow is a much more important metric than operating income, as any Goldman Sachs banker will tell you. Jerry Jones and Wonder Boy Snyder realized this long ago...causing the Pete Rozelle NFL model to become less and less relevant with each passing season.

 

If it wasn't for the Toronto deal, the Bills revenue ranking would probably be among the bottom-5 franchises. A smart front office can help compensate for that, but that's been a scarce commodity at OBD since John Butler left. That's on Ralph, but the cluster fluk that TD left behind is still being felt.

[K-9]

... Revenue/cash flow is the great un-equalizer when it comes to "investing" in an NFL team. The differential between the Cowboys/Skins and Bills/Lions is huge, giving those teams a major advantage when dangling signing bonus money in front of FAs or front loading contracts. They can write a check from petty cash, rather than dipping into the owners' pocket.

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_NFL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html

 

Cash flow is a much more important metric than operating income, as any Goldman Sachs banker will tell you. Jerry Jones and Wonder Boy Snyder realized this long ago...causing the Pete Rozelle NFL model to become less and less relevant with each passing season.

 

If it wasn't for the Toronto deal, the Bills revenue ranking would probably be among the bottom-5 franchises. A smart front office can help compensate for that, but that's been a scarce commodity at OBD since John Butler left. That's on Ralph, but the cluster fluk that TD left behind is still being felt.

 

I agree with all of this. But I have a hypothetical in light of the economic realities of the league:

 

Regarding that "smart front office." How would that compensate for a low revenue ranking? What if the Bills were one of the most successful winning teams since Butler left? What if we'd one multiple SBs? How would that have generated the huge corporate support so important to the high revenue teams?

 

I don't think it would have increased revenues much. Big corporations would not have flocked to WNY. Winning SBs is nice but it won't help cash flow much at all, IMO.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[RTW2012]

Spend a little time at SabreSpace.com and read their forum, especially posters named DeLuca, Ghost of Dwight Drane and PA Sabres Fan. I think the honeymoon lasted all of 20 minutes with those 3.

 

PTR

Your statement was "It's the ugly side of being from Buffalo. We want everything and when we get it we complain that it wasn't gift wrapped." Are you really saying that a couple of chuckleheads on a message board speak for all of us?

 

Is this the same way that "we" run coaches out of town?

[Montana Mike]

Good post. Should be required reading for everyone who's so quick to bash him. They know nothing of the man they're bashing. RW is too humble a man to mention his charitable works over the years but if we knew more about even half of them we'd be embarrassed.

 

But there would still be those who would label him a "cheap philanthropist."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BuffaloRebound]

 

3.) If team A spends 34% of total revenues on player expenses and team B spends 62% of total revenues on player expenses who has the advantage? If team A has 143m in operating income and team B has 28m in operating income, who has the advantage? Please weigh those ramifications of ALL REVENUES INCREASING PLAYER EXPENSES FOR ALL TEAMS as indicated above.

 

Your disdain for RW and his "cheapness" is well chronicled here. But please make an effort to do some honest research into why he feels the way he does. And why many in the media, not to mention around the league, have come around to his concerns.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

The only advantage is that Jones and Snyder can line their pockets more. There are plenty of guys like a Kyle Williams that would rather play in a low-key, blue-collar city instead of NYC, DC and Dallas. Hard to argue that Ralph's main focus the last 10+ years hasn't been increasing the bottom line instead of putting a winner on the field... putting a marketing guy in charge, selling a home game to Toronto.

[PromoTheRobot]

Your statement was "It's the ugly side of being from Buffalo. We want everything and when we get it we complain that it wasn't gift wrapped." Are you really saying that a couple of chuckleheads on a message board speak for all of us?

 

Is this the same way that "we" run coaches out of town?

If you spend any time on Buffalo fan boards you see this mindset emerge. I don't have the time and energy to search and link every post on SabreSpace but there is definitely a segment of fans who find fault in everything. Maybe it's the "nothing-good-ever-happens-to-Buffalo-so-there-must-be-a-catch" syndrome. Then there is "the-owner-is-billionaire-so-why-do-I-have-to pay?" attitude. I also love the "owner-has-done-nothing-to-show-me-he's-committed-to-winning-so-I-refuse-to-support-this-team-until-they-win-a-cup." mindset. And let's not forget the "we-are-the-greatest-fans-in-the-world-so-anything-less-than-a-championship-is-an-insult-to-us." motto, a classic!

 

PTR

[BuffaloRebound]

Who's "them?"

 

 

 

Revenue/cash flow is the great un-equalizer when it comes to "investing" in an NFL team. The differential between the Cowboys/Skins and Bills/Lions is huge, giving those teams a major advantage when dangling signing bonus money in front of FAs or front loading contracts. They can write a check from petty cash, rather than dipping into the owners' pocket.

 

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/football-valuations-10_NFL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html

 

Cash flow is a much more important metric than operating income, as any Goldman Sachs banker will tell you. Jerry Jones and Wonder Boy Snyder realized this long ago...causing the Pete Rozelle NFL model to become less and less relevant with each passing season.

 

If it wasn't for the Toronto deal, the Bills revenue ranking would probably be among the bottom-5 franchises. A smart front office can help compensate for that, but that's been a scarce commodity at OBD since John Butler left. That's on Ralph, but the cluster fluk that TD left behind is still being felt.

 

Don't really understand the Cash Flow argument. If anything, teams like the Bills who spend under the cap have more cash flows than operating income and teams like the Cowboys who invest in billion dollar stadiums have more operating income than cash flows.

[RTW2012]

If you spend any time on Buffalo fan boards you see this mindset emerge. I don't have the time and energy to search and link every post on SabreSpace but there is definitely a segment of fans who find fault in everything. Maybe it's the "nothing-good-ever-happens-to-Buffalo-so-there-must-be-a-catch" syndrome. Then there is "the-owner-is-billionaire-so-why-do-I-have-to pay?" attitude. I also love the "owner-has-done-nothing-to-show-me-he's-committed-to-winning-so-I-refuse-to-support-this-team-until-they-win-a-cup." mindset. And let's not forget the "we-are-the-greatest-fans-in-the-world-so-anything-less-than-a-championship-is-an-insult-to-us." motto, a classic!

 

PTR

 

None of which has to do with your original statement that all Buffalo fans "want everything and when we get it we complain that it wasn't gift wrapped."

 

Yes, I know there are segments of Buffalo fans, for the Sabres and the Bills, that are never satisfied. Still, it shouldn't be characterized as an exclusively Buffalo thing, nor does it apply to all of us.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Ummmmm, because it is a duplicate posted 10 hours after mine?

Sorry must have missed it, thanks for adding me to yours.

[Beerball]

Sorry must have missed it, thanks for adding me to yours.

Dude, I didn't merge them, but no big deal.

[Mr. WEO]

1.) RW never said that the economic conditions in Buffalo have resulted in the Bills not making the playoffs since last century. He's simply said all along that Buffalo's economy puts them at a disadvantage economically and competitively. It does. That's the reality. Still he says they'll "be all right" and he points the finger at bad decisions being the reason they're not winning.

 

You are playing with words. I'll play along though--how, exactly, does Buffalo's economy put the team at a competitive disadvantage? All your nonsense below seeks to hide the fact that the Bills take in tens of millions in profits no matter the economy--of course Ralph will always be "all right". You have said correctly yourself--bad decisions have doomed this franchise. These have absolutely nothing to do with the economy, which is my point.

 

 

2.) You seem misinformed about why RW voted against the last CBA. Please provide a link to that portion of the last CBA that specifically defines the qualifiers for supplemental revenue sharing. Also, please expound on the ramifications of a high revenue team, like Dallas, generating say 30m in stadium naming rights. I'll start. Since the salary caps and floors are based on revenues generated by ALL teams, the player expenses for lower revenue teams just increased. Unprecedented windfall revenue shares, indeed. Bottom line is that NOWHERE in published team valuations and accompanying team financial data (Forbes is the one I use) are these record revenue shares reflected. The gap between high revenue teams and low revenue teams has GROWN since the last CBA and all that revenue sharing. But RW was just worried about missing out. Right.

 

I stand corrected, Ralph voted against the CBA because, as he famously stated, he didn't understand it. Fair enough, but he gets no points for prescience there. Anyway, the only figure Wilson had to worry about after the last CBA was not the salary cap (which is an imaginary number for him), but the salary floor. The increase in the floor over the course of that CBA was a tiny fraction of the revenue the Bills generated--and had no negative effect on the operating margin of the Bills over that period. It was significantly higher than under the period before the 2006 CBA.

 

Ralph knew that Jones in particular made no attempt to hide his contempt for owners with no debt obligations and high relative profit margins who claimed they were hurting financially. Since he didn't know the conditions to qualify for more of other owners' money, and fearing he made too much to qualify, he voted against the revenue sharing deal/CBA.

 

3.) If team A spends 34% of total revenues on player expenses and team B spends 62% of total revenues on player expenses who has the advantage? If team A has 143m in operating income and team B has 28m in operating income, who has the advantage? Please weigh those ramifications of ALL REVENUES INCREASING PLAYER EXPENSES FOR ALL TEAMS as indicated above.

 

Your disdain for RW and his "cheapness" is well chronicled here. But please make an effort to do some honest research into why he feels the way he does. And why many in the media, not to mention around the league, have come around to his concerns.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If team B spends 62% of total revenues on player expenses (and well under the cap) and has no massive debt to service, team B has a lot of money left over at the end of the year to do with it whatever the owner pleases.

 

"honest research"? Please. How are the Cowboys and the Redskins (or the Texans, for that matter) doing with their massive "competitive advantage"? How many SB appearances for these two in the past 15 years? None?? How can that be?? Who are the big name free agents the patriots are always throwing money at with their huge financial competitive advantage?

 

The same guys who moan about "problems" of the poor "small market teams" (Steelers? Packers? Indy?) are the same guys who mock Jones and Snyder for blowing big money on staff and players.

 

My "disdain" isn't for Ralph's "cheapness" (nice try), but for his ineptitude. You have conceded as much yourself in your above post. This "Buffalo's economy negatively affects the Bills ability to compete" (I assume we both mean "winning") is nonsense.

[Rockinon]

If you spend any time on Buffalo fan boards you see this mindset emerge. I don't have the time and energy to search and link every post on SabreSpace but there is definitely a segment of fans who find fault in everything. Maybe it's the "nothing-good-ever-happens-to-Buffalo-so-there-must-be-a-catch" syndrome. Then there is "the-owner-is-billionaire-so-why-do-I-have-to pay?" attitude. I also love the "owner-has-done-nothing-to-show-me-he's-committed-to-winning-so-I-refuse-to-support-this-team-until-they-win-a-cup." mindset. And let's not forget the "we-are-the-greatest-fans-in-the-world-so-anything-less-than-a-championship-is-an-insult-to-us." motto, a classic!

 

PTR

:lol:

[birdog1960]

372-421-8. that's all you need to know. if that's success, i shudder to see failure.

[Rockinon]

 

 

My "disdain" isn't for Ralph's "cheapness" (nice try), but for his ineptitude. You have conceded as much yourself in your above post. This "Buffalo's economy negatively affects the Bills ability to compete" (I assume we both mean "winning") is nonsense.

 

If you have so much disdain, go find another team. You are talking about the same guy that literally had a hand in making the NFL what it is today. The same owner that brought us 4 strait superbowl appearances. The same guy who didn't want the last CBA. For someone who is soooooooo inept he, sure has pretty damned good vision. I don't see you running an NFL franchise and seriously, what makes you think you are even qualified to make such statements? I get that you are frustrated, but you sir don't have a clue.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Rockinon

[birdog1960]

If you have so much disdain, go find another team. You are talking about the same guy that literally had a hand in making the NFL what it is today. The same owner that brought us 4 strait superbowl appearances. The same guy who didn't want the last CBA. For someone who is soooooooo inept he, sure has pretty damned good vision. I don't see you running an NFL franchise and seriously, what makes you think you are even qualified to make such statements? I get that you are frustrated, but you sir don't have a clue.

and all this vision gave the fans exactly what?: a perennial loser save a few "strait" trips to the super bowl well over a decade ago. the Bills were arguably worse back when buffalo had a relatively robust population and economy. this has more to do with wilson than the small market issue.

[K-9]

You are playing with words. I'll play along though--how, exactly, does Buffalo's economy put the team at a competitive disadvantage? All your nonsense below seeks to hide the fact that the Bills take in tens of millions in profits no matter the economy--of course Ralph will always be "all right". You have said correctly yourself--bad decisions have doomed this franchise. These have absolutely nothing to do with the economy, which is my point.

 

Buffalo's economy puts the at a disadvantage because it lacks the corporate dollars that other markets have. That's a simple reality. Everybody in the world knows that except those so entrenched in their views that they'd have to embarrass themselves by admitting it.

 

I stand corrected, Ralph voted against the CBA because, as he famously stated, he didn't understand it. Fair enough, but he gets no points for prescience there. Anyway, the only figure Wilson had to worry about after the last CBA was not the salary cap (which is an imaginary number for him), but the salary floor. The increase in the floor over the course of that CBA was a tiny fraction of the revenue the Bills generated--and had no negative effect on the operating margin of the Bills over that period. It was significantly higher than under the period before the 2006 CBA.

 

The floor is not the only figure teams have to worry about regardless of whether or not they spend to the cap. I could spend hours outlining many of the other figures teams worry about but that's not the point. Prescient or not, RW did the responsible thing by not agreeing to something before he understood it. Given how much you and others mocked him at the time, it's understandable that you have a hard time admitting that now.

 

Ralph knew that Jones in particular made no attempt to hide his contempt for owners with no debt obligations and high relative profit margins who claimed they were hurting financially. Since he didn't know the conditions to qualify for more of other owners' money, and fearing he made too much to qualify, he voted against the revenue sharing deal/CBA.

 

This is nothing more than made-up nonsense to support your specious argument.

 

If team B spends 62% of total revenues on player expenses (and well under the cap) and has no massive debt to service, team B has a lot of money left over at the end of the year to do with it whatever the owner pleases.

 

So, because the Bills don't owe on a stadium everything is just icing on the cake and RW just banks everything he makes because of that. Again, I could spend hours outlining the other things teams pay for but I'll just leave you with this: Even though Jones has a ton of debt service on a new stadium (his choice by the way), he still has far more left over at the end of the day than RW. 420m in revenues vs. 228. 143m in operating income vs. 28m. Both teams spent the same 143m on player expenses. You do the math.

 

"honest research"? Please. How are the Cowboys and the Redskins (or the Texans, for that matter) doing with their massive "competitive advantage"? How many SB appearances for these two in the past 15 years? None?? How can that be?? Who are the big name free agents the patriots are always throwing money at with their huge financial competitive advantage?

 

Perhaps the Cowboys, Redskins, and Texans make even worse personnel decisions than the Bills. I don't know. But those teams can recover much faster financially from their mistakes. That's an advantage. Another is that they have more to spend on more talented FAs. Small market teams have less leeway to make those kind of mistakes. I don't see how that's hard to understand.

 

The same guys who moan about "problems" of the poor "small market teams" (Steelers? Packers? Indy?) are the same guys who mock Jones and Snyder for blowing big money on staff and players.

 

I don't mock Jones and Snyder for spending their money the way they want to. The fact is that other teams aren't as free to spend big money on staff and players. The same guys who moan about RW being too cheap to spend big money on staff and players can't seem to grasp that simple fact.

 

My "disdain" isn't for Ralph's "cheapness" (nice try), but for his ineptitude. You have conceded as much yourself in your above post. This "Buffalo's economy negatively affects the Bills ability to compete" (I assume we both mean "winning") is nonsense.

 

It would be more honest of you if you said your disdain for RW isn't confined to his cheapness. Your body of work relative to RW's cheapness has been well established. You've railed on it incessantly over the years.

 

As for ineptitude, yes I concede that. And so does RW. Unless admitting you've made mistakes isn't a concession.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited May 16, 2011 by K-9

[Albany,n.y.]

Please, do go on. I'm enjoying the revisionist history.

 

1.) Please revisit the Butler resignation. Butler didn't leave because RW was too cheap. Period.

 

2.) Peters was never a free agent. Winfield, Pat Williams, and Clements didn't leave because RW was cheap. They left because they didn't want to be here and, secondly, because the GM and coaches at the time made the decision. Can't hang that on Ralph. I know it would have been better to make Clements the best paid DB in history. Right.

 

3.) Kelly didn't go to the USFL because of more money. He went because the Bills sucked, especially on OLine. Why no mention that RW made him the one of the highest paid QBs in the league when he came to Buffalo in 1986?

 

4.) I'm very well aware of the Cousineau situation. It was less about money than it was feeling disrespected. But, again, no mention that RW signed Cousineau to a contract that made him the highest paid defensive player in football upon his return to the NFL. All that said, you gotta like what they parlayed Cousineau into. Then again, maybe not.

 

As for the Toronto deal and the 75m. Please list all the FAs that the Bills should have signed and then convince me they wanted to be in Buffalo in the first place. Also, please tell me why anyone would expect the Bills to throw good money after FAs when they were recently burned for doing just that. Dockery, record contract; Langston Walker, 25mil.

 

As for the Bills' and being under the cap. So what? Does spending at or near the cap make you a better team? Please research the numbers before answering. As for a cash to cap accounting method, ask the Steelers how that works for them.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think you're doing a little revising yourself:

 

Pat Williams desperately wanted to re-sign with the Bills. Unfortunately, Bills management didn't feel at 32 going on 33, he had enough left in him to give him a long term, big $ contract. Although that wasn't being cheap, it was looking at a heavy guy getting old & misjudging how much longer he could play at a high level.

 

The Bills did not suck when Kelly was drafted prior to the 2003 season. In fact, before Joe Ferguson hit the wall, they started the season 5-2. The main reasons Kelly signed with the USFL were because he got more money, he could choose where to play & he would be able to start from day 1, something the Bills weren't going to let him do because Joe Ferguson was still entrenched as the starter.

There are a lot of revisionist stories, but the fact that Kelly was at 1 Bills Drive, seriously negotiating the Bills rookie contract when the secretary came in & Kelly took the USFL call telling him not to sign anything, shows that Kelly was a lot closer to signing in 2003 than the revisionists care to remember.

 

The Bills never signed Tom Cousineau with the expectation of paying him that contract. They had already worked out a deal with Cleveland to trade him & only signed him because the deal was already worked out. The Bills never wanted Cousineau at the price Houston was willing to pay, but at the same time, they couldn't let him go for nothing. The Cleveland deal worked out well for the Bills, but please don't revise it to look like the Bills were willing to make him the highest paid defensive player in the NFL.

 

Just keeping it real.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Albany,n.y.