GG Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Is that a fact? Collective punishment, no right to vote, white phosphorus being sprayed unbiasedly all over the place, check points everywhere, the most populated place on earth per square foot with no way out, rocket attacks, jet fighter attacks, destruction of infrastructure by tanks and bulldozers, land revocation, etc etc etc. I can go on and on. My question to you is how far out of your arse did you you pull that line of crap? Sure, Palestinian human rights aren't very good in Jordan, but what else would you expect from the US's and Israel's buddy? But the situation in Jordan doesn't even compare with that of the one in Palestine. I have been there. I know first hand about the situation in Pali/Israel. I'm speaking from actual experience, not the crap you learn on TV or the internet. I have spent time and know people in Jordan, Israel, and Palestine. Come talk to me when you've been there. You know nothing when it comes to the real life s**t in Palestine-NOTHING!!!! And the crap life that's been made in Palestine is all of their own making, or rather, Arafat's making. Ordinary Israeli Arabs had greater degrees of freedom, autonomy, economic and educational opportunity than any Arabs in Middle East. So don't preach the crappy life that was caused by Israel. At one point, a retrospective look in the mirror is warranted in why sub-Saharan Africa may soon leap the Arab world in living standards. If land for peace was the great savior, maybe you can explain about the paradise that Hamas build up in Gaza in the half decade that they've had the entire run of the place. Point is, that no matter how evil you think Israel is, the country never had a negotiating partner that it could trust. Every single "peace accord" was undermined by Arafat's fear of losing control (gee, doesn't that sound familiar in every Arab country), and his legacy on PA is still reverberating. Fix your own problems first, then ask for negotiations.
Justice Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 And the crap life that's been made in Palestine is all of their own making, or rather, Arafat's making. Ordinary Israeli Arabs had greater degrees of freedom, autonomy, economic and educational opportunity than any Arabs in Middle East. So don't preach the crappy life that was caused by Israel. At one point, a retrospective look in the mirror is warranted in why sub-Saharan Africa may soon leap the Arab world in living standards. If land for peace was the great savior, maybe you can explain about the paradise that Hamas build up in Gaza in the half decade that they've had the entire run of the place. Point is, that no matter how evil you think Israel is, the country never had a negotiating partner that it could trust. Every single "peace accord" was undermined by Arafat's fear of losing control (gee, doesn't that sound familiar in every Arab country), and his legacy on PA is still reverberating. Fix your own problems first, then ask for negotiations. 1. Have you seen the things Israel has done to Gaza in the past? How can it ever be made into a paradise when it's constantly under attack? 2. Wrong again, dude, the Israelis killed peace when they assassinated Rabin.
3rdnlng Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Okay, don't go back to the 1967 borders. Let all of Israel be Israel, but give the Palestinians the same rights that the Israelis have, including the right to vote and then we'll see who's going to run things. You like that? You can't have it both ways. Either you give us equal rights or our own state. What is Hamas going to give up? Will they renounce violence? Will they recognize Israel's right to exist? Would you negotiate with them if they didn't renounce violence and didn't recognize Israels right to exist?
Justice Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 What is Hamas going to give up? Will they renounce violence? Will they recognize Israel's right to exist? Would you negotiate with them if they didn't renounce violence and didn't recognize Israels right to exist? You ask me those questions as if I am a part of or support Hamas. I don't, listen, if they go back to the 67 borders unconditionally, then there will be no more Hamas. Hamas is a symbol of resistance of the occupation, if there is no occupation, there is nothing to resist. Hamas would be finished. As long as Palestinians allow Israel to look like Northern Ireland, rather than the apartheid South Africa, or, in the immortal words of John Lennon, "go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow." 1. Every single person is responsible for their choices. Nobody is forcing these Palestinian kids to go to Madrassas, or join terrorist outfits. Much the same as nobody is forcing any American teen to join a street gang. The people who join these groups make a choice every day to stay. They make a choice every day to do whatever they are told. In making these choices, they know damn well that there will be reprisals for whatever actions they take. They known damn well that they are putting Palestinian civilians in danger every single time they attack Israeli civilians. If they are too dumb do understand that, then why should anyone feel sorry for them? 2. There are plenty of people who have chosen to leave these terrorist groups, much the same as their have been plenty of American kids who choose to leave street gangs. If everything was preordained and nobody had a choice, then these people wouldn't exist. However, they do exist. It is possible to leave, reject violence, etc. 3. It is possible for the average Palestinian to realize that what they are doing, Hamas, etc. isn't f'ing working, has never worked, and will never work. It is possible for them to change their tactics from those that fail, to those that succeed. And that's the real point here: it's not just the dishonor that these people bring upon themselves and their people, it's the failure and doom they bring to their cause, that makes people like me say WTF? Sure, I understand that I would be the first to pick up a weapon and defend my country from an invader. I did already. I also understand that if, by some miracle, the US Army was defeated in the field by a foreign enemy, there's a good chance I would end up being a partisan. Here's the difference: if, after 5 years, I realized that what I was doing wasn't working, I wouldn't keep doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. That's because: I am not an idiot. I don't understand signing up for losing, and continuing to lose. I would realize, and so would a lot of other people, that it's time to change tactics. Tactics mean "what we do", not "what we do, that must be based on closing with and engaging the enemy". I think we can agree that Israel is not, and never will be as powerful as the British Empire was. Yet, somehow, Ghandi successfully defeated them. How? He changed the tactics. The strategy "force the British to leave India", never changed. At no time did he change the strategy to coexist or compromise with Britain. Nope, the only thing he changed was the tactics. The Indians had revolted violently for 150 years, with no success. Not even close. In contrast, Ghandi was able to bring about his campaigns goals, once the real campaign began, in just over 20. So what is the lesson from history that b.harami98 and Palestinians have failed to learn? Google awaits. When you complete that activity, you will realize that the only rational conclusions that can be drawn are: "Palestinians have their leaders to blame for not changing tactics years ago". "Apparently Palestinians etc. have become addicted to the fear, not respect, they have been able to create in others. However, just like US gang leaders, there's no future in fear, and sooner or later you end up with a bullet in your head, a fitting end to a wasted and therefore worthless life". "There will never be any monuments to Abdullah the suicide bomber, and even if there are, they won't last long. In contrast, if the tactical change is conducted properly, there will be monuments to Abdullah, the non-violent civil disobedience protester that was killed by the Israelis, those monuments will be respected by the rest of the world, and here's the kicker: Israel too" "If Israel is the oppressor Palestinians say they are, then they have to make sure that they are seen that way, by more than the leftist idiots in this country who are looking for an excuse. You have to prove it to rational Americans, every day, all the time, for years. Only then will you succeed in changing our policy." As long as Palestinians allow Israel to look like Northern Ireland, and not the old South Africa, or, in the immortal words of John Lennon, "go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone, anyhow." I can't believe no one has ever tried a peaceful method of protest in Palestine. You're so smart.
3rdnlng Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Okay, don't go back to the 1967 borders. Let all of Israel be Israel, but give the Palestinians the same rights that the Israelis have, including the right to vote and then we'll see who's going to run things. You like that? You can't have it both ways. Either you give us equal rights or our own state. You stated earlier that I asked you those questions as if you were part of Hamas. It sounds as if you are deeply invested in the Palistinian cause. Again, would you even negotiate with a party that won't renounce violence against you and won't even recognize your right to exist? You seem to have a knack for avoiding answering that. When answering remember Hamas represents the Palistinians in the Gaza Strip because they were voted in by the Palistinians in the Gaza Strip.
Justice Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 You stated earlier that I asked you those questions as if you were part of Hamas. It sounds as if you are deeply invested in the Palistinian cause. Again, would you even negotiate with a party that won't renounce violence against you and won't even recognize your right to exist? You seem to have a knack for avoiding answering that. When answering remember Hamas represents the Palistinians in the Gaza Strip because they were voted in by the Palistinians in the Gaza Strip. Could it be I'm a Palestinian??? The problem here is you equate Palestinian with terrorist or Hamas. To answer your question, I would negotiate with Hamas, because a return to the 1967 borders will ultimately render Hamas as useless. On the flip side, the Palestinians will be negotiating with a country that hasn't renounced violence, or recognize our right to exist.
3rdnlng Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Could it be I'm a Palestinian??? The problem here is you equate Palestinian with terrorist or Hamas. To answer your question, I would negotiate with Hamas, because a return to the 1967 borders will ultimately render Hamas as useless. On the flip side, the Palestinians will be negotiating with a country that hasn't renounced violence, or recognize our right to exist. I don't equate Palistinian with terrorist or Hamas. Remember Jews can be Palistinian too. I do equate Hamas with terrorism. Hamas is the ruling party in Gaza and was actually voted in. Regardless I'd be very skeptical of making an agreement with any party that doesn't believe that I have the right to exist. It would be too easy for them to go back on their word.
chicot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) I don't equate Palistinian with terrorist or Hamas. Remember Jews can be Palistinian too. I do equate Hamas with terrorism. Hamas is the ruling party in Gaza and was actually voted in. Regardless I'd be very skeptical of making an agreement with any party that doesn't believe that I have the right to exist. It would be too easy for them to go back on their word. This whole "right to exist" argument is stupid and nonsensical. So what if they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really think that sets things in stone for now and evermore? What is to stop future generations from going back on that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and, in practice, that is virtually the same thing. Israel exists. Don't expect the Palestinians who lost everything in it's creation to like it as well. As far as I'm concerned Israel has no right to exist in it's current form, anymore than apartheid South Africa had any right to exist. Israeli law states that a Jew from anywhere in the world has the absolute right to emigrate and settle there, whereas Palestinians who can trace their ancestry back to that land for generations are denied the same right. That is racism pure and simple and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is not. The only fair solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a binational state with equal rights for all it's citizens. The 2-state solution is dead - the Israelis have ensured that by continually taking more and more land. The truly ironic thing is that it is Israeli policy that will inevitable lead to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Edited May 16, 2011 by chicot
3rdnlng Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 This whole "right to exist" argument is stupid and nonsensical. So what if they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really that sets things in stone for now and evermore? What is to stop future generations from going back on that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and, in practice, that is virtually the same thing. Israel exists. Don't expect the Palestinians who lost everything in it's creation to like it as well. As far as I'm concerned Israel has no right to exist in it's current form, anymore than apartheid South Africa had any right to exist. Israeli law states that a Jew from anywhere in the world has the absolute right to emigrate and settle there, whereas Palestinians who can trace their ancestry back to that land for generations are denied the same right. That is racism pure and simple and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is not. The only fair solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a binational state with equal rights for all it's citizens. The 2-state solution is dead - the Israelis have ensured that by continually taking more and more land. The truly ironic thing is that is Israeli policy that will inevitable lead to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=220567
chicot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=220567 Care to elaborate a bit or is that the sum total of your "reply"?
3rdnlng Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Care to elaborate a bit or is that the sum total of your "reply"? Don't have time now but will later. I'm here to have an honest factual civil discussion. If that's what you want, then I'm sure we will be discussing this.
chicot Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Don't have time now but will later. I'm here to have an honest factual civil discussion. If that's what you want, then I'm sure we will be discussing this. Ok. Fair enough.
Justice Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 This whole "right to exist" argument is stupid and nonsensical. So what if they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really that sets things in stone for now and evermore? What is to stop future generations from going back on that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and, in practice, that is virtually the same thing. Israel exists. Don't expect the Palestinians who lost everything in it's creation to like it as well. As far as I'm concerned Israel has no right to exist in it's current form, anymore than apartheid South Africa had any right to exist. Israeli law states that a Jew from anywhere in the world has the absolute right to emigrate and settle there, whereas Palestinians who can trace their ancestry back to that land for generations are denied the same right. That is racism pure and simple and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is not. The only fair solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a binational state with equal rights for all it's citizens. The 2-state solution is dead - the Israelis have ensured that by continually taking more and more land. The truly ironic thing is that is Israeli policy that will inevitable lead to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Wow, I'm impressed, it's hard to find someone that knows a little something about the situation in Palestine that they haven't heard on local news.
GG Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 This whole "right to exist" argument is stupid and nonsensical. So what if they recognize Israel's right to exist? Do you really think that sets things in stone for now and evermore? What is to stop future generations from going back on that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Hamas have offered an indefinite truce and, in practice, that is virtually the same thing. Israel exists. Don't expect the Palestinians who lost everything in it's creation to like it as well. As far as I'm concerned Israel has no right to exist in it's current form, anymore than apartheid South Africa had any right to exist. Israeli law states that a Jew from anywhere in the world has the absolute right to emigrate and settle there, whereas Palestinians who can trace their ancestry back to that land for generations are denied the same right. That is racism pure and simple and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is not. The only fair solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a binational state with equal rights for all it's citizens. The 2-state solution is dead - the Israelis have ensured that by continually taking more and more land. The truly ironic thing is that it is Israeli policy that will inevitable lead to the end of Israel as a Jewish state. Well, isn't it nice to apply your standard on what qualifies a Jewish state? Isn't the definition of giving preference to Jews in a Jewish state the whole point of it being a Jewish state? You may disagree with the entire concept of a nation state being founded on the basis of being tied to a particular religion, but it is not against international law to have religion codified into a sovereign constitution. The apartheid argument is a tired one, as that can be applied to any agreived party that lost its land/property to a military conflict. The Jewish state was created under the auspices of international law, and ever since its founding people want a do over. Yet, the standard that the polite society the world wants Israel to live by somehow do not apply to anyone else (especially to the same members of that polite society). And Israel is a multicultural state right now, where people have to live by its laws. But at the end of the day it is a Jewish state. If you don't like it, please start a petition at the Vatican & Riyad asking that all religious nation states should be abolished. When you're successful with the big fish, maybe then you can adress Israel.
Justice Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Well then if this is the case then it's alright by me that they pull off all these atrocities. Never mind the fact that occupying a land is illegal. Well, isn't it nice to apply your standard on what qualifies a Jewish state? Isn't the definition of giving preference to Jews in a Jewish state the whole point of it being a Jewish state? You may disagree with the entire concept of a nation state being founded on the basis of being tied to a particular religion, but it is not against international law to have religion codified into a sovereign constitution. The apartheid argument is a tired one, as that can be applied to any agreived party that lost its land/property to a military conflict. The Jewish state was created under the auspices of international law, and ever since its founding people want a do over. Yet, the standard that the polite society the world wants Israel to live by somehow do not apply to anyone else (especially to the same members of that polite society). And Israel is a multicultural state right now, where people have to live by its laws. But at the end of the day it is a Jewish state. If you don't like it, please start a petition at the Vatican & Riyad asking that all religious nation states should be abolished. When you're successful with the big fish, maybe then you can adress Israel. Edited May 17, 2011 by b.harami98
GG Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Well then if this is the case then it's alright by me that they pull off all these atrocities. Never mind the fact that occupying a land is illegal. I'm quite certain that by any reasonable measure, Israel's "atrocities" pale to any other country that's been threatened by its neighbors throughout its existence. Maybe they can learn a thing or two from Assad on how to deal with the opposition.
Justice Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Threat? What threat? Israel has one of the mightiest military's in the world going up against what exactly? See, that's the thing about you Israel lovers, you sure know how to play the role of victim. Even when you're the oppressor. Whatta joke! I ain't fallin' for it! Threat? What threat? Israel has one of the mightiest military's in the world going up against what exactly? See, that's the thing about you Israel lovers, you sure know how to play the role of victim. Even when you're the oppressor. Whatta joke! I ain't fallin' for it!
GG Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Threat? What threat? Israel has one of the mightiest military's in the world going up against what exactly? See, that's the thing about you Israel lovers, you sure know how to play the role of victim. Even when you're the oppressor. Whatta joke! I ain't fallin' for it! Threat? What threat? Israel has one of the mightiest military's in the world going up against what exactly? See, that's the thing about you Israel lovers, you sure know how to play the role of victim. Even when you're the oppressor. Whatta joke! I ain't fallin' for it! For someone who claims to understand the region, you're certainly clueless about its history. Even saying twice won't make your point more valid.
Justice Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Technical difficulties, I guess. Do you care to elaborate on that comment you made about me not knowing anything about the region? So what are you saying? That Israel doesn't play the role if victim? Or that the Palestinian people aren't oppressed?
Adam Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Why is there so much outrage in the Islamic world over every perceived insult? An a-hole in Florida burns the Koran and Muslims half way around the world riot and kill UN troops. Iran burns the Bible and Christians say "that's stupid". That outrage, coupled with certain interpretations of Islamic teachings is what is causing the vast amount of terrorism in the world. Although there may be some Hindu terrorism, any Buddhist or Christian terrorism is virtually non existent. To clarify that further much more violent crime or terrorism is done in the name of Islam than in the name of all other religions put together. You act like Islamic terrorism is an isolated thing. It's not "a crazy group of killers" but a whole lot of crazy groups of killers. As long as good, peaceful Muslims keep telling themselves that it is just a select few and not speak out in outrage against these acts is as long as they will all be suspect by some. The killings were done by idiots who claim to be muslims. They were looking for something to blame it on.
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