Reorganizing The Scouting Department

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Hey y'all! I reckon most of us would agree that the Buddy Nix master plan is building the Bills through the draft. I'm on board with that approach. Letting Modrak go and promoting Whaley were good first steps toward improving our long term draft results. But why stop there? If we're really committed to drafting the very best players in the future, we need to scout young players differently than the other 31 teams. We need to think outside the box as we reorganize the scouting department.

 

Rather then sending scouts all over the country, why not focus our small market resources on the places where we are most likely to find the best talent? Buddy is known for having a keen eye for talent, and he has consistently drafted players from the Southeast because that must be where he thinks the best talent is. Spiller, Troup, Carrington, Dareus, Sheppard, Searcy and Hairston all are from or played a lot of their games in the Southeast. Everybody knew those early round draftees were good players, but what about the late round guys that you have to scour the bushes to find? Well 7th round gems Levi Brown and man mountain Michael Jasper played on the same high school team. Guess where - - Mt. Juliet High School in Tennessee.

 

So let's not waste time and money scouting out west for the likes of Trent Edwards and Marshawn Lynch and Erik Flowers. Let's scout deep instead of wide, and send our scouts where the talent is. Let's send some scouts to the best high schools in the Southeast and identify the best players there as early as possible. Buddy has connections to college coaches in the Southeast - - maybe he can identify the feeder schools like Mt. Juliet that supply the southern college leagues with the best high character talent.

 

If we identify the best talent earlier, we can follow their college careers longer, get to know their strengths and weaknesses better, and ultimately make better draft day decisions. And if the courts radically change the structure of the NFL and allow teams to sign players without age restrictions, maybe we can sign the next Peyton Manning before the other 31 teams find him. The Lakers won three consecutive NBA championships in part because they drafted Kobe Bryant right out of high school, and he developed into a league MVP. Who's to say we can't find our next franchise QB the same way?

 

Buddy Nix says that the draft is like all 32 NFL teams trying to rob the same train. How are we going to be better train robbers than the other 31 teams if we don't get to the train first? Let's rob it as it leaves the station in the Southeast, and let the other guys try to rob it years later out west.

 

Go Bills!!!

[K-9]

Few stones are unturned when it comes to identifying top talent in high schools and colleges. As members of BLESTO, the Bills share a treasure trove of information on players from all over the country before they even have to send one of their scouts to personally take a look. As members of BLESTO the Bills are also obligated to share information on players they've scouted with other BLESTO members. It's difficult to keep a good prospect a secret. It just doesn't happen.

 

I think Buddy and Co. are pretty good at seeing things in lesser known players that perhaps other teams don't and they're not afraid to take a flyer on a player they feel they can develop. Jasper is a good case in point.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

As members of BLESTO, the Bills share a treasure trove of information on players from all over the country before they even have to send one of their scouts to personally take a look. As members of BLESTO the Bills are also obligated to share information on players they've scouted with other BLESTO members.

How are we supposed to be better train robbers than the other 31 teams if we have to share our information about the train with them? That heifer don't hunt!

 

Go Bills!!

[Scraps]

Few stones are unturned when it comes to identifying top talent in high schools and colleges. As members of BLESTO, the Bills share a treasure trove of information on players from all over the country before they even have to send one of their scouts to personally take a look. As members of BLESTO the Bills are also obligated to share information on players they've scouted with other BLESTO members. It's difficult to keep a good prospect a secret. It just doesn't happen.

I think Buddy and Co. are pretty good at seeing things in lesser known players that perhaps other teams don't and they're not afraid to take a flyer on a player they feel they can develop. Jasper is a good case in point.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

As illustrated by Olof Pilar.

[Ennjay]

Geez, where to begin . . .

 

We're going to conserve our limited resources by having our college scouts skip most of the country so they can watch high school games in the southeast?

 

We're going to ignore the fact that even college freshmen haven't matured enough (physically) in most cases to make a difference in the NFL, so we'll get a situation like the NBA used to have for most of its kiddies (not the superstars): draftees would sign a rookie contract with someone and then leave via free agency just when they're ready to contribute?

 

And by the way, the Lakers didn't draft Kobe out of high school. The Charlotte Hornets did, and then immediately took Vlade Divac in a trade for his rights even-up.

[Coach Tuesday]

For years I've been suggesting that the Bills (and other small market teams) employ more of a Moneyball approach. It's not just scouting, although I like your ideas with that. There are other areas where the Bills could get a lot more bang for their buck, to help make up for their inability to compete with the cash resources of the Snyders and Jones.

 

For example:

 

1) Strength and conditioning - why not spend a bit more to buy the best trainers and equipment money can buy? No matter how expensive it is, it's not going to be nearly as much as acquiring high cost free agents. If the Bills were to increase their S&C allocation by $500,000, I'm guessing it would pay for itself right away by reducing injuries (which result in sunk payroll costs), and winning games (higher overall revenue).

 

2) Coaching - again, good coaches aren't cheap - but the highest-paid coaches are still a hell of a lot cheaper than players. I never understood this aspect of Ralph's "philosophy" (if you want to label cheapness an ethos). Ralph doesn't like paying coaches top-dollar. It's stupid, because he ends up wasting money on expensive free agents and draft picks who don't develop properly in part because of the mickey mouse coaching regimes he hires.

 

3) Scheme - this one is more complex and debatable. But basically, Moneyball says, do the opposite of what the majority is doing, because the majority sets the market. If everyone else is running a 3-4, then linebackers and NTs are gonig to be very expensive. So run a 4-3 - not only will player costs be cheaper, but you'll have the advantage of throwing a different look at offenses than they're used to seeing every week. I'm oversimplifying there, but you get the idea - there is something to changing the scheme due to economics.

[Green Lightning]

 

3) Scheme - this one is more complex and debatable. But basically, Moneyball says, do the opposite of what the majority is doing, because the majority sets the market. If everyone else is running a 3-4, then linebackers and NTs are gonig to be very expensive. So run a 4-3 - not only will player costs be cheaper, but you'll have the advantage of throwing a different look at offenses than they're used to seeing every week. I'm oversimplifying there, but you get the idea - there is something to changing the scheme due to economics.

 

 

We just ran a 4-3 for ten years and we sucked. There's a reason why teams like a 3-4 - it works. Besides, we're running a hybrid. I also liked Moneyball, but the team that most exemplifies the concept is the Oakland A's, and they winn a lot of games but now championships. The Red Sox and Cheatriots use aspects of the concept but they drop a ton of green behind it to get to the top.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Geez, where to begin . . .

 

We're going to conserve our limited resources by having our college scouts skip most of the country so they can watch high school games in the southeast?

 

We're going to ignore the fact that even college freshmen haven't matured enough (physically) in most cases to make a difference in the NFL, so we'll get a situation like the NBA used to have for most of its kiddies (not the superstars): draftees would sign a rookie contract with someone and then leave via free agency just when they're ready to contribute?

 

And by the way, the Lakers didn't draft Kobe out of high school. The Charlotte Hornets did, and then immediately took Vlade Divac in a trade for his rights even-up.

At least we seem to agree that we have limited resources. Trips to the South cost less than trips out west - - it's just closer. With the way the cost of gas is rising who knows how much it would cost to scout out west in a few years. How much more do you want to spend for season tickets so we can scout guys like Edwards, Lynch and Flowers?

 

But more importantly, if we spend more time following the amateur career of a player, we will be in better position to pick the next superstar like Kobe instead of the "kiddies" that don't amount to anything. The NBA is a physical game, too. If a high school player's skills are so ugly that they'd need to sneak up on a water fountain to get a drink - - stop scoutin' 'em and focus your limited resources elsewhere.

 

You may be right about the Kobe going to the Lakers via trade - - but it sorta proves my point. What did the Charlotte Hornets amount to - - Kobe has three championship rings and has played on the Lakers for years. Dontcha think the Hornets wish they had kept Kobe?

[K-9]

For years I've been suggesting that the Bills (and other small market teams) employ more of a Moneyball approach. It's not just scouting, although I like your ideas with that. There are other areas where the Bills could get a lot more bang for their buck, to help make up for their inability to compete with the cash resources of the Snyders and Jones.

 

For example:

 

1) Strength and conditioning - why not spend a bit more to buy the best trainers and equipment money can buy? No matter how expensive it is, it's not going to be nearly as much as acquiring high cost free agents. If the Bills were to increase their S&C allocation by $500,000, I'm guessing it would pay for itself right away by reducing injuries (which result in sunk payroll costs), and winning games (higher overall revenue).

 

2) Coaching - again, good coaches aren't cheap - but the highest-paid coaches are still a hell of a lot cheaper than players. I never understood this aspect of Ralph's "philosophy" (if you want to label cheapness an ethos). Ralph doesn't like paying coaches top-dollar. It's stupid, because he ends up wasting money on expensive free agents and draft picks who don't develop properly in part because of the mickey mouse coaching regimes he hires.

 

3) Scheme - this one is more complex and debatable. But basically, Moneyball says, do the opposite of what the majority is doing, because the majority sets the market. If everyone else is running a 3-4, then linebackers and NTs are gonig to be very expensive. So run a 4-3 - not only will player costs be cheaper, but you'll have the advantage of throwing a different look at offenses than they're used to seeing every week. I'm oversimplifying there, but you get the idea - there is something to changing the scheme due to economics.

 

1.) How does the Bills budget for S&C, including equipment and facilities compare to other NFL teams?

 

2.) Ralph doesn't pay for UNPROVEN coaches. But Rauch, Saban II, and Levy are all examples of coaches being paid at or near the top of the scale. If your argument is "but he didn't hire Cowher, Shanahan, etc, so he is cheap" then it's a weak and misinformed argument. In fact it's an entirely different matter.

 

3.) Yes, you are.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

As illustrated by Olof Pilar.

 

OK, you got me there. But Olaf Pilar is the exception to the rule. He would have been one of the greatest to ever play the game. But I can't fault a guy whose lifelong dream was to captain his own North Atlantic cod fishing boat. More power to him, I say.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited May 11, 2011 by K-9

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Moneyball says, do the opposite of what the majority is doing, because the majority sets the market.

Wasn't it Einstein who said that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again in the same way and expecting a different result? How many years have we been wasting scouting resources out west and getting roughly the same 7-9 results? Let the other 31 teams scout out west. We should scout high schools in the Southeast instead and be better train robbers.

 

Go Bills!!

[Scraps]

We just ran a 4-3 for ten years and we sucked. There's a reason why teams like a 3-4 - it works. Besides, we're running a hybrid. I also liked Moneyball, but the team that most exemplifies the concept is the Oakland A's, and they winn a lot of games but now championships. The Red Sox and Cheatriots use aspects of the concept but they drop a ton of green behind it to get to the top.

 

Plenty of teams have won with the 4-3. If you don't have the right talent, your scheme doesn't matter. When you draft the Donte Whitners of the world over Haloti Ngatas, the Aaron Maybins over the Brian Orakpos or draft John McCargos, it doesn't matter what your scheme is, you are going to suck.

[K-9]

Wasn't it Einstein who said that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again in the same way and expecting a different result? How many years have we been wasting scouting resources out west and getting roughly the same 7-9 results? Let the other 31 teams scout out west. We should scout high schools in the Southeast instead and be better train robbers.

 

Go Bills!!

 

Are you under the impression that our regional scouts live in Buffalo and are dispatched to their regions each week, come home, file reports and go out again? I mean no disrespect but you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the NFL conducts it's scouting operations. The Bills' resources are no more limited than anyone else in this regard.

 

As to the idea that the Bills limit themselves to one region of the country, please tell me you're just joking. It makes no sense.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[John from Riverside]

I would like to steal other NFL teams best scouts......

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Are you under the impression that our regional scouts live in Buffalo and are dispatched to their regions each week, come home, file reports and go out again? I mean no disrespect but you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the NFL conducts it's scouting operations. The Bills' resources are no more limited than anyone else in this regard.

 

As to the idea that the Bills limit themselves to one region of the country, please tell me you're just joking. It makes no sense.

 

GO BILLS!!!

In my OP I gave lots of examples of the players that Buddy Nix drafted from the Southeast. I happen to think that Buddy has a keen eye for talent. What sort of return have we gotten out of the last two drafts for whatever money we spent on scouting out west (regardless of where the scout's home base is)? Even our best undrafted free agents have frequently been from the Southeast. Jabari Greer was undrafted out of Tennessee and he's gone on to start in the Super Bowl.

 

The people in our scouting department work hard, but they're busier than a one-eyed cat watching three mouse holes because they're spread too thin. We should focus where the best young talent is, and get there early. That isn't out west.

 

Go Bills!!

[K-9]

I would like to steal other NFL teams best scouts......

 

What teams did you have in mind, John? There's a chance we share information with them anyway.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Coach Tuesday]

1.) How does the Bills budget for S&C, including equipment and facilities compare to other NFL teams?

 

2.) Ralph doesn't pay for UNPROVEN coaches. But Rauch, Saban II, and Levy are all examples of coaches being paid at or near the top of the scale. If your argument is "but he didn't hire Cowher, Shanahan, etc, so he is cheap" then it's a weak and misinformed argument. In fact it's an entirely different matter.

 

3.) Yes, you are.

 

Your tone pisses me off, because I laid out a well-reasoned, creative argument and you seem eager to snidely crap on it, PTR style. Having said that,

 

1) I don't know, but that isn't my point - I'm guessing the Bills aren't spending MORE than the league average, and I'm advocating they overspend here.

 

2) Not just talking about HCs - assistants are a huge part of this. Show me where Ralph has spent top dollar on assistant coaches. I don't see it.

 

3) Yes, as I said. Is that all you have to say about it?

[Scraps]

That Andrew Luck guy can't play. He plays out West. :wallbash:

Edited May 11, 2011 by Scraps

[Mr. WEO]

At least we seem to agree that we have limited resources. Trips to the South cost less than trips out west - - it's just closer. With the way the cost of gas is rising who knows how much it would cost to scout out west in a few years. How much more do you want to spend for season tickets so we can scout guys like Edwards, Lynch and Flowers?

 

 

The South is closer than the west.....

 

 

Holy cow.

 

 

In my OP I gave lots of examples of the players that Buddy Nix drafted from the Southeast. I happen to think that Buddy has a keen eye for talent. What sort of return have we gotten out of the last two drafts for whatever money we spent on scouting out west (regardless of where the scout's home base is)? Even our best undrafted free agents have frequently been from the Southeast. Jabari Greer was undrafted out of Tennessee and he's gone on to start in the Super Bowl.

 

The people in our scouting department work hard, but they're busier than a one-eyed cat watching three mouse holes because they're spread too thin. We should focus where the best young talent is, and get there early. That isn't out west.

 

Go Bills!!

What "sort of return" did we get out of the draft picks you mentioned from last year? What about Byrd, Levitre, Corner, Poz? All starters at one point already.

 

No talent "out west", huh?

 

Wow. This is all sorts of crazy.

[K-9]

Your tone pisses me off, because I laid out a well-reasoned, creative argument and you seem eager to snidely crap on it, PTR style. Having said that,

 

1) I don't know, but that isn't my point - I'm guessing the Bills aren't spending MORE than the league average, and I'm advocating they overspend here.

 

2) Not just talking about HCs - assistants are a huge part of this. Show me where Ralph has spent top dollar on assistant coaches. I don't see it.

 

3) Yes, as I said. Is that all you have to say about it?

 

Sorry my tone pisses you off. Two dimensional text can often come across that way. I'm not crapping on anything here. Just asking for more information. But given YOUR tone is often negative and craps on most things Bills related, it's no surprise you're defensive.

 

1.) Why would you just assume the Bills aren't spending more than the league average? History suggests the Bills are ahead of the curve when it comes to dedicating facilities to better their players. The Bills were one of the first teams to construct a fieldhouse that allowed for full scale practices in all weather. It was a state of the art facility. This doesn't jive with your theory that the Bills are just "too cheap."

 

2.) I think it stands to reason that since RW has paid top dollar in the past for HCs and those HCs were free to hire whatever assistants they wished, that perhaps they too, were on the higher end of the pay scale. But, for at least ONE example, I offer Ted Marchibroda, one of the highest paid assistants in the league when he was with the Bills. I think it's disingenuous to shift the discussion to assistant coaches all of a sudden though.

 

3.) Yeah, that's basically all I have to say to the notion of scheme choice being driven by economics. Allow me to oversimplify this time: If EVERY team in the league ran a 34, LBs would STILL be the easiest position, athlete wise, to fill. DLmen would still be at a premium because they are harder to find and develop. On a side note, I would add that's it's FAR less about scheme than it is about players. Ask any coach.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited May 11, 2011 by K-9

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

At least we seem to agree that we have limited resources. Trips to the South cost less than trips out west - - it's just closer. With the way the cost of gas is rising who knows how much it would cost to scout out west in a few years. How much more do you want to spend for season tickets so we can scout guys like Edwards, Lynch and Flowers?

You keep naming these 3 as though they are the only 3 players to ever play in the NFL from the West, or that they are somehow indicative of the talent level of players from the West. Also, it's not like players from the South are infallible.