Toronto to make a pitch for a NFL team

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Don't know how they can seriously even ask for a team when they can't fill the Rogers Center for one game a year.

Well firstly, the Bills suck and have sucked since before they started their series in Toronto.

 

Secondly, the Bills are not their team.

 

Thirdly, the opponents have not been terribly attractive gate attractions.

 

Fourthly, the tickets are obscenely overpriced.

 

PFT's Florio opined this and I think it's pretty accurate (because WNY and Southern Ontario are really one market…didn't the Bills recently say that 25% of ticket buyers at The Ralph are from Ontario?):

 

"Of course, this implies that a full and complete move by the Bills, instead of a shared arrangement with Buffalo, would be welcomed. It's safe to say, however, that the folks in Toronto don't want to be perceived as politicking to pilfer the Bills from Buffalo. That said, the ultimate unspoken goal could be to pressure the Bills to protect their regionalized turf by moving to Toronto in order to keep another NFL team from moving in next door."

 

I would HATE to see the Bills move. But I think people saying that Toronto would be a failed NFL market are just wishful thinking.

Edited May 5, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan

[billsfreak]

Not sure it will happen, they have trouble selling tickets for one regular season game a year. In addition to that, the owners of the teams in the CFL tried to fight the Bills playing one game a year there, so adding an NFL team full time might off the most popular team in that league.

Edited May 5, 2011 by billsfreak

[Hplarrm]

not happenning......the best toronto can hope for is a second regular season game when the NFL regular season increases to 18 games. the Bills would never allow another team in their territory.

What you are saying does not strike me as correct because I think there is one rule which overrides all the rest: The NFL will do things to make more money!

 

I think many folks are missing the boat on their predictions because their thinking seems to be driven by a conclusion that the customer is determined by ticket buyers. Ticket sales are an important source of income, but the real money the NFL team owners get comes from the TV networks.

 

The customer is always right if you want your business to be successful and in the case of the NFL the customer are the billions of eyeballs which the TV networks collect billions of dollars to offer to sell them soap, beer and cars.

 

My sense is that the dollars say:

 

1. The NFL will put a franchise in Toronto in order to get better use of the millions of eyeballs in GTA. I think it is a mistake to conclude just because Toronto had trouble selling tickets which were set exorbitantly high charge, because the real deal in not simply the # from ticket sales, the real money is whether they can get enough eyeballs to sell to advertisers.

 

2. The ultimate value of the Bills is not found in ticket sales but in being able to rell and sale a good story which attracts millions of viewers to be sold things. The Bills ticket sales while not a non-factor and NFL owners are happy to take the money, as am original AFL franchise the team helps tell a story which the nets and the NFL want to sell to viewers in places like Mexico City, Tokyo and even in China. The best thing for keeping the team here is that Buffalo Bill is an iconic American name with history which can make new teams in market centers around the globe that when they join the league they are joining history. Also, if the Bills were to move the many depressing images of this heartbroken town does not make for good sales to new municipal markets.

 

3. Based on what is happening in the real world with hockey it is certainly the case that two major league teams can survive in both cities. In fact, the natural rivalry between the two cities guarantees two sell-outs and lots of buzz about the rivalry. Like McDonalds and Burger King where actually each franchise does better when they are in close proximity to each other, I do not think it is correct from a marketing standpoint to view this as only one team can survive.

 

4. The Bills are actually at great advantage vis a vis Toronto as we have asserted our rights to the market but this does not mean Toronto cannot happen it simply means the Bills will get paid handsomely for sharing the market.

 

No one know for sure what will happen including me, but there is a fair case to be made that a Toronto franchise would mean big bucks for the Bills team owner.

[Maddog69]

Well firstly, the Bills suck and have sucked since before they started their series in Toronto.

 

Secondly, the Bills are not their team.

 

Thirdly, the opponents have not been terribly attractive gate attractions.

 

Fourthly, the tickets are obscenely overpriced.

 

PFT's Florio opined this and I think it's pretty accurate (because WNY and Southern Ontario are really one market…didn't the Bills recently say that 25% of ticket buyers at The Ralph are from Ontario?):

 

"Of course, this implies that a full and complete move by the Bills, instead of a shared arrangement with Buffalo, would be welcomed. It's safe to say, however, that the folks in Toronto don't want to be perceived as politicking to pilfer the Bills from Buffalo. That said, the ultimate unspoken goal could be to pressure the Bills to protect their regionalized turf by moving to Toronto in order to keep another NFL team from moving in next door."

 

I would HATE to see the Bills move. But I think people saying that Toronto would be a failed NFL market are just wishful thinking.

Regardless of whether it is the Bills or another team moving to Toronto, I wholeheartedly believe they will fail. Toronto does not suuport the Blue Jays in MLB. They don't support the Raptors of the NBA. The only team they support overwhelmingly is the Leafs, but that is because Hockey is the Candian national pastime. I think the NFL would flop in Toronto and the team would be looking to move in 7-10 years at most.

[KollegeStudnet]

Truth...I want a pony, but like Toronto having an NFL team--I wouldn't have a clue on how to take care of it!

Edited May 5, 2011 by KollegeStudnet

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Regardless of whether it is the Bills or another team moving to Toronto, I wholeheartedly believe they will fail. Toronto does not suuport the Blue Jays in MLB. They don't support the Raptors of the NBA. The only team they support overwhelmingly is the Leafs, but that is because Hockey is the Candian national pastime. I think the NFL would flop in Toronto and the team would be looking to move in 7-10 years at most.

I hope you're right, Maddog.

 

But a failed Toronto NFL franchise is one thing.

 

That's a separate and secondary issue to the NFL actually placing a team in Toronto in the first place.

 

In spite of what Hplarrm is saying, there's also a scenario where a team is placed in Toronto, does damage to the Bills financially, and then subsequently fails itself.

 

Rather than ever see a team in Toronto and hope that it somehow boosts revenue for the Bills, I'd prefer never to see an NFL team up there.

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

Well firstly, the Bills suck and have sucked since before they started their series in Toronto.

 

Secondly, the Bills are not their team.

 

Thirdly, the opponents have not been terribly attractive gate attractions.

 

Fourthly, the tickets are obscenely overpriced.

 

PFT's Florio opined this and I think it's pretty accurate (because WNY and Southern Ontario are really one market…didn't the Bills recently say that 25% of ticket buyers at The Ralph are from Ontario?):

 

"Of course, this implies that a full and complete move by the Bills, instead of a shared arrangement with Buffalo, would be welcomed. It's safe to say, however, that the folks in Toronto don't want to be perceived as politicking to pilfer the Bills from Buffalo. That said, the ultimate unspoken goal could be to pressure the Bills to protect their regionalized turf by moving to Toronto in order to keep another NFL team from moving in next door."

 

I would HATE to see the Bills move. But I think people saying that Toronto would be a failed NFL market are just wishful thinking.

Do the Bills have to be in downtown Toronto or just somewhere in Southern Ontario? A stadium somewhere in the Hamilton area could serve both markets. Yes, we would all hate this but we may not have a choice. L.A. is a huge vacuum that could suck the Bills right out of WNY and then what do you have? If the Bills were still the Bills and playing 35 miles away in Canada I can see myself still being a fan assuming ticket prices aren't in the stratosphere.

 

PTR

[Cloverbank]

Build a new stadium in Niagara Falls, either on the Canadian or US side. Fans could walk across the Rainbow Bridge. If it were in Canada people could tailgate on the US side. There is no lack of parking space behind the casino.

 

PTR

 

 

agree with premise .... question is where would the $$$ come from? Whether this was built on US or Canadian side ( hope for US side though), could this be a joint venture between local governments and then approach Senecas for naming rights $$$?

Just spit balling.

[Captain Hindsight]

Not sure it will happen, they have trouble selling tickets for one regular season game a year. In addition to that, the owners of the teams in the CFL tried to fight the Bills playing one game a year there, so adding an NFL team full time might off the most popular team in that league.

Thats what I've been thinking this whole time. The Toronto Argos will fight this tooth and nail, the Bills aren't going to Toronto and the NFL won't intrude on the Bills Market. Thats financial disaster for two teams

[PromoTheRobot]

agree with premise .... question is where would the $$$ come from? Whether this was built on US or Canadian side ( hope for US side though), could this be a joint venture between local governments and then approach Senecas for naming rights $$$?

Just spit balling.

I think in this day and age it would have to be privately financed. But an NFL-quality stadium in the Falls (either side) would be a good economic opportunity for events outside of the NFL as well. It would have to be more than just a stadium. It would need to be an event and entertainment complex that includes a convention-sized hotel with all the amenities.

 

PTR

[Kipers Hair]

Any franchise in TO has an uphill battle - just like the Raptors - Players will not want to play there - Canadian taxes will kill them. I know you can argue they are successful in baseball - but 50% of the culture is not American based - it's carribean...hockey - hell 50% of them are canadien. No way I see a toronto based franchise being any good on the field...

[Slayers]

Build a new stadium in Niagara Falls, either on the Canadian or US side. Fans could walk across the Rainbow Bridge. If it were in Canada people could tailgate on the US side. There is no lack of parking space behind the casino.

 

PTR

 

You cannot move the Bills across the border 75% of Bills fans would not be able to enter Canada and since its not hockey they will not get enough Canadian fans to make up for it

[Doc]

The stadium cost, plus purchasing a team, plus the international relocation fee would put the price tag of such a move in the $2B range. Not gonna happen.

[CodeMonkey]

You cannot move the Bills across the border 75% of Bills fans would not be able to enter Canada and since its not hockey they will not get enough Canadian fans to make up for it

Why? Are 75% of Bills fans wanted for some kind of crime that would keep them from crossing the border?

 

The stadium cost, plus purchasing a team, plus the international relocation fee would put the price tag of such a move in the $2B range. Not gonna happen.

Can you explain what this is in the context of a NFL team please and who it gets paid to?

Edited May 5, 2011 by CodeMonkey

[Mr. WEO]

I think in this day and age it would have to be privately financed. But an NFL-quality stadium in the Falls (either side) would be a good economic opportunity for events outside of the NFL as well. It would have to be more than just a stadium. It would need to be an event and entertainment complex that includes a convention-sized hotel with all the amenities.

 

PTR

There are already plenty of empty hotel rooms around the Falls.

[PromoTheRobot]

There are already plenty of empty hotel rooms around the Falls.

Because the place is a crap hole. Consider this a major improvement.

 

PTR

 

You cannot move the Bills across the border 75% of Bills fans would not be able to enter Canada and since its not hockey they will not get enough Canadian fans to make up for it

Do 75% of Bills fans have DUI's??

 

PTR

[Doc]

Why? Are 75% of Bills fans wanted for some kind of crime that would keep them from crossing the border?

 

 

Can you explain what this is in the context of a NFL team please and who it gets paid to?

If an existing team moves, there is a relocation fee of several hundred million dollars. Moving a team out of the country reportedly costs even more. And it gets paid to the NFL, a la a new owner paying an expansion fee.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

If an existing team moves, there is a relocation fee of several hundred million dollars. Moving a team out of the country reportedly costs even more. And it gets paid to the NFL, a la a new owner paying an expansion fee.

The Constitution and Bylaws of the NFL govern territorial rights for existing franchises. That document typically gets amended at the annual league meetings every year. The most recent version I have been able to find on-line is the 2006 revision. You can read it at this link (if you have a couple days of free time):

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

 

See Article IV (starts at page 12), entitled "Territorial Rights." It defines the "Home Territory" of the Bills as the geographic area within 75 miles in every direction from the corporate limits of the City of Buffalo.

 

I don't claim to be familiar with the entire Constitution and Bylaws document, but it spells out the rights of each franchise within its "Home Territory."

 

Just my opinion, but I don't see why any owner of the Bills (current or future) would be required to pay any type of relocation fee to have the Bills play in any stadium that is located within 75 miles (as the crow flies) from any part of the City of Buffalo. Seems like there is a compelling argument that if the Bills play in the Rogers Center, or any future stadium built on Canadian soil that is also within 75 miles of any part of Buffalo, the Bills are still playing in the same "Home Territory" that they have always played in.

 

Again, just my opinion, but this seems to give any Toronto bidders a bit of an advantage in any future bidding war for the Bills' franchise. Somebody who wants to buy the Bills and move them anywhere that is more thsn 75 miles outside the Buffalo city limits will be required to pay a franchise relocation fee. A Toronto bidder who wants the team to play in the Rogers Center, or any future new stadium within 75 miles of Buffalo, won't have to pay that fee if I am interpreting the document correctly.

 

Anybody have a logical rationale for a different interpretation of the Constitution and Bylaws document?

 

I don't know if the "Territorial Rights" provision has been amended since 2006, but it seems unlikely. It appears to have survived from 1970 through 2006 intact.

 

I would hate to see the Bills move, but the NFL Constitution and Bylaws document seems to govern any current or future team owner's rights with respect to franchise territory.

[Doc]

The Constitution and Bylaws of the NFL govern territorial rights for existing franchises. That document typically gets amended at the annual league meetings every year. The most recent version I have been able to find on-line is the 2006 revision. You can read it at this link (if you have a couple days of free time):

 

http://static.nfl.com/static/content//public/static/html/careers/pdf/co_.pdf

 

See Article IV (starts at page 12), entitled "Territorial Rights." It defines the "Home Territory" of the Bills as the geographic area within 75 miles in every direction from the corporate limits of the City of Buffalo.

 

I don't claim to be familiar with the entire Constitution and Bylaws document, but it spells out the rights of each franchise within its "Home Territory."

 

Just my opinion, but I don't see why any owner of the Bills (current or future) would be required to pay any type of relocation fee to have the Bills play in any stadium that is located within 75 miles (as the crow flies) from any part of the City of Buffalo. Seems like there is a compelling argument that if the Bills play in the Rogers Center, or any future stadium built on Canadian soil that is also within 75 miles of any part of Buffalo, the Bills are still playing in the same "Home Territory" that they have always played in.

 

Again, just my opinion, but this seems to give any Toronto bidders a bit of an advantage in any future bidding war for the Bills' franchise. Somebody who wants to buy the Bills and move them anywhere that is more thsn 75 miles outside the Buffalo city limits will be required to pay a franchise relocation fee. A Toronto bidder who wants the team to play in the Rogers Center, or any future new stadium within 75 miles of Buffalo, won't have to pay that fee if I am interpreting the document correctly.

 

Anybody have a logical rationale for a different interpretation of the Constitution and Bylaws document?

 

I don't know if the "Territorial Rights" provision has been amended since 2006, but it seems unlikely. It appears to have survived from 1970 through 2006 intact.

 

I would hate to see the Bills move, but the NFL Constitution and Bylaws document seems to govern any current or future team owner's rights with respect to franchise territory.

I was actually referring to the situation where either the Jags or Saints (since the Bills weren't mentioned) get purchased and moved to Toronto. But as you mention above (I was going to mention this earlier, but didn't have the time to look up the Constitution and Bylaws), Toronto is within the territory of the Buffalo Bills and no other team can be moved there. Unless the bylaws have been changed.

 

As for giving an advantage to a team that is looking to buy the Bills and move it to Toronto, not really. A buyer will be there to buy the Bills and keep the team in Buffalo, like how Golisano sold the Sabres to Pegula and eschewed the higher bidders who meant to move the team elsewhere. The NFL doesn't want the bad press of steering the sale of the team to an owner/group that wants to move the team, when there is at least someone else willing to buy the team and keep it in Buffalo.

[BuffaloRebound]

If the Bills moving to Toronto means more money for Jones, Snyder and the rest of the corporate d-bag owners, there's probably not much that could stop it. Who would've thought there'd be a lockout when the League is doing better than it ever has?