PDaDdy Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 I think you are right on and this is a closer comparison. I can't stand the J. Russel comparisons myself. I dont't see them as much anymore butt back a while ago everywhere i went i would see comments claiming Newton is basically Russel 2.0 They aren't even close to the same style of QB. It's almost as if some people just see a tall black QB and think back to J. Russel without even actually comparing them on how they play the game. I personally don't care what color our QB (or any other player) is going to be as long as he is WINNING!!! I have said the same things. Great point. I saw that comparison too. I was thinking what is this guy smoking? Newton is a more athletic Tim Tebow. That comparison is dead on. Russell? Seriously?
KD in CA Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 It's the product of college football and the NCAA system. At the college level you can give a supremely athletically gifted QB the ball and tell him to go win games for you while others that aren't so ridiculously athletic don't have the option of taking off and running for 15 - 50 yards. Coaches are not preparing them to play in the NFL. Coaches are preparing them to win on Saturday. Team wins on Saturday and the school gets notoriety, financial compensation, coaches get to keep their jobs, etc. Egg-xactly. Success in college and success in the pros are two different animals and one does not necessarily follow the other. People that are easily distracted by bright, shiny objects (OMG -- greatest athlete ever!!!!) usually don't bother to understand the difference.
DrDawkinstein Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Egg-xactly. Success in college and success in the pros are two different animals and one does not necessarily follow the other. People that are easily distracted by bright, shiny objects (OMG -- greatest athlete ever!!!!) usually don't bother to understand the difference. And people also dont understand that just because a player was asked/told/coached to play a certain way in a certain system, does NOT mean they cant or wont be successful in an NFL system. It just means that they have some work to do to come up to speed.
1gap2gap Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 So noooooow I understand the reason for suggesting that Cam should be the same style of QB as Ben Rothlesburger. I knew there must be some racist meaning to that statement!!! Look in the mirror and I think you will see the only racist on this board.
PDaDdy Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 And people also dont understand that just because a player was asked/told/coached to play a certain way in a certain system, does NOT mean they cant or wont be successful in an NFL system. It just means that they have some work to do to come up to speed. Also true. The new wave of athletic QBs come with a lot more risk as you don't see them in pro settings or throwing nearly as often.
Zulu Cthulhu Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 I'm not getting into this race debate again after it was beat to death earlier this month. But as far as the Wonderlic test goes, I have a question. If the SI report is correct, and all these anonymous quotes from coaches, scouts, and GMs are true, then why do they still administer the test at all? If the exam score doesn't correlate to football success, as so many of you point out, it 's totally pointless to keep giving it to kids. Yet year after year it's still administered.
purple haze Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) I think their wonderlic scores are what lend support to the belief that Gabbert may be quicker at learning an NFL playbook/reads. That belief started well before the wonderlic scores became public. And there was no accurate basis for it then and there still isn't. They are (Wonderlic tests) actually quite useful at gauging intelligence / mental capacity. Cam is slightly below average intelligence. Blaine isn't. Dumb people generally have more obstacles to overcome but can do it with drive, effort, and hard work. That's why they have the sit down interviews - to see what else a player can bring to the table. To call someone below average intelligence isn't racist, its stating a fact. No matter what type of test people take intelligence doesn't change. Personalities might, but not smarts. I disagree. Change the information on the test and see how they do. Memorization of random knowledge doesn't make one intelligent at all. If you can tell me what shape X is = to or any other equation so what? Gabbert got 40 or so on the test and he has low pocket awareness. How does knowing the value of a shape help with that problem? Or the fact that his throws down the field lack accuracy? And how does that tell us how one would navigate through life in general? It's great that people do well on the test, but it's just a test with info that someone thinks is important for whatever reason. I can make up a test that you might not do well on. Wouldn't make you less intelligent. There could be reasons you didn't do well, from you might not be a good test taker, to you weren't exposed to some of the information within the test for whatever reason, to you didn't prepare well enough. I happen to have two college degrees and was accepted into a 2nd Master's program not long ago. SAT and GRE scores? Far from great; In fact they were bad when compared to the national average at those times. Had my scores been released to the public I'm sure many people would have said, "unintelligent". However, that wouldn't necessarily make it true. One doesn't know someone's intelligence unless they are around the person. That would give one a truer indication. Edited March 25, 2011 by purple haze
LabattBlue Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 I'm really hoping that Gabbert and Newton get passing grades(worthy of #3 pick) from the Bills and that one of them is available at #3. Not getting our franchise QB ASAP will only serve to continue this endless mediocrity(and that is being kind).
Maddog69 Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 You are just now catching on to this board! and the word is borderline not boarder like Unless you own a rooming house and one of your Boarders is a racist.
Rob's House Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Google wonderlic and see how many NFL people as well as sportswriters comment on how the test doesnt predict success and is largely not used. Its just not used in any way you have described it. Favre scored a 22, Big Ben a 23, so they must be idiots who have no chance to succeed? ? SI just did a piece on how there is no correlation btwn the wonderlic and success. btw Eli manning scored 10 points higher than Peyton, who only scored a 28......the same score as mark sanchez and lower than JP Losman, Rex Grossman and a host of other scrubs. ITs about football, there have been plenty of guys who arent booksmart but can read a defense. Thats why coaches want one on one interviews. To talk football. A 40 time isn't a great indicator either, but if a guy runs a 4.8 you might reconsider giving him big money to play CB.
djfarr00 Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 WOW! You don't put much stock at all in the wonderlick test being the end all be all of a mans intelligence do you? Do you realize that some of the guys are trained and coached up on the wonderlick???? The same article I read also spoke to WR and DBs traditionally having HORRIBLE wonderlick scores because nobody cares what they score. It's not that every WR and DB in the NFL is an idiot. It's that it is not important so they don't put any effort into it. That being said isn't it just the tiniest bit possible that perhaps athletic QBs in general don't get coached up on or care too much about the wonderlick since their supreme athletic gifts will get them where they need to go on draft day? To my recollection Tebow didn't impress any Mensa members with his wonderlick score but nobody ever said he was "dumb". Hrmmmmm. I believe that intelligence testing is valid - using Wonderlic or some other form of IQ test and that people are limited in the jobs that they can do successfully by many things (effort, motivation, ethics, and intelligence being a few). You wouldn't want Vince Young trying to repair the space shuttle would you? Its no secret that you can prepare and in some cases beat the Wonderlic test - so your results are higher than they should be. Regarding your last paragraph - Actually, I don't think its possible. With all the hype (real and perceived) associated with Wonderlic test scores and all the dollars associated with being a top 5 pick, I believe all players are coached on the Wonderlic. See Vince Young and his taking the test multiple times. Facts are facts. Half the population is below average at something. The original post that I responded to tried to tie Newton comparisons to racist behavior. I don't think that's true unless you believe black people are less intelligent that white people - which would in fact make you racist. My comment back was simply stating that he tests out to be dumb and that's where some of negativity is centered around. BTW, Tebow hasn't impressed anyone in NFL yet either
PDaDdy Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 BTW, Tebow hasn't impressed anyone in NFL yet either I beg to differ on that. Due to his hard work and die hard attitude he has impressed me. He has taken his physical skills and dedicated himself to playing QB at the pro level where athleticism alone won't get it done.
Rob's House Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 I believe that intelligence testing is valid - using Wonderlic or some other form of IQ test and that people are limited in the jobs that they can do successfully by many things (effort, motivation, ethics, and intelligence being a few). You wouldn't want Vince Young trying to repair the space shuttle would you? Its no secret that you can prepare and in some cases beat the Wonderlic test - so your results are higher than they should be. Regarding your last paragraph - Actually, I don't think its possible. With all the hype (real and perceived) associated with Wonderlic test scores and all the dollars associated with being a top 5 pick, I believe all players are coached on the Wonderlic. See Vince Young and his taking the test multiple times. Facts are facts. Half the population is below average at something. The original post that I responded to tried to tie Newton comparisons to racist behavior. I don't think that's true unless you believe black people are less intelligent that white people - which would in fact make you racist. My comment back was simply stating that he tests out to be dumb and that's where some of negativity is centered around. BTW, Tebow hasn't impressed anyone in NFL yet either Does believing black people tend to be more athletically gifted than white people make you a racist?
Haven Moses Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Once again....Jim Kelly had a horrible Wonderlich test score.
djfarr00 Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Once again....Jim Kelly had a horrible Wonderlich test score. Jim Kelly isn't very bright. He was a great QB though Wonderlic doesn't measure success, it measures intelligence. Does believing black people tend to be more athletically gifted than white people make you a racist? nope..probably more of a realist I beg to differ on that. Due to his hard work and die hard attitude he has impressed me. He has taken his physical skills and dedicated himself to playing QB at the pro level where athleticism alone won't get it done. Sorry, I didn't realize you were in the NFL. Is this Clay Mathews?
Dexter Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Kelly and Marino each got 15. Cam just trounced 'em. Vince Young came with the Wonderlic RED FLAG = TOO DUMB. Cam doesn't. Cam's score is absolutely above where the "concern" would start, under 20, and as we can document, plenty of under 20 QBs did quite well, and Big Ben at 23 is "statistically insignificant" from Cam's 21. Indeed, Cam has never had a problem getting in trouble with cops, but Big Ben has... Like Big Ben, Cam is super tough, plays with pain, and still can avoid the rush and launch a strike downfield. Cheating at UF doesn't require being SUPER DUMB. Rather, it is just part of the UF program which includes THE SUPER DUMB, like 2011 Combine dummy Carl Johnson, who just CHOMPED the Wonderlic for a 6... If you are really good in football, there is a place on the Gators for you, regardless... CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP
Rob's House Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 nope..probably more of a realist Way to stay consistent.
Hplarrm Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 I'm not getting into this race debate again after it was beat to death earlier this month. But as far as the Wonderlic test goes, I have a question. If the SI report is correct, and all these anonymous quotes from coaches, scouts, and GMs are true, then why do they still administer the test at all? If the exam score doesn't correlate to football success, as so many of you point out, it 's totally pointless to keep giving it to kids. Yet year after year it's still administered. Ironically, I think the fact that everyone uses Wonderlic is more likely a demonstration in the real world that standardized testing simply has real limits in it usefulness for accurately assessing players. The NFL is such a competitive league on the field that even someone as successful as Belicheat was deemed it necessary to quite transparently break the rules to get any advantage he could over the opposing team. If a standardized test was so great a tool for player assessment, one can rest assured that one would consistently see teams trying out some new fangled standardized test (the Hyperlic or the doublebackflipalic as they sought an even better test for assessing players. Instead, I think the Wonderlic hits the outside of the envelope in terms of what atandardized testing can tell you (which likely is not much as there are simply no absolute correlation between Wonderlic scores and success in the NFL- if there were then Tom Brady and RoboQB would be near the top of the Wonderlic scores and Fitzpatrick would score in the middle or slightly above average if you felt good about him that day). Overall. even when the Wonderlic does tell you something like Fitzy is bright, well he went to Harvard so no surprise here and Vince Young is as dumb as a stump. You really need a standardized test to tell you this. Then why is it so widely used? Part of the answer is found in merely being able to ask the question. It is widely used because everyone else is using it. Why not take readily available info and use it when the other guy is using it? The actual question is how are others using it and the answer is that it seems to be used to confirm pre-existing notions (whether intelligent notions or not and this is where the racism issue comes in). It also provides a similar standard for comparing QB in different years (he is another Jim Kelly, dumb as a stump but boy can he run an offense) which is a stock in trade of draft assessment. The real answer is that standardized testing is a pretty dead letter in terms of assessing players as it does not appear to be worth the time to change the discriminatory practice which defines the CBA.
NewEra Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Newton is a lot like Tebow. That's the comparison that should be made. Except that cam has a better arm and a throwing motion that is NFL ready. Tebow had to modify his throwing motion a great deal.
jumbalaya Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 thanks was talking and typing the older i get the harder i find it to get some of the right words / phrases out. everyone knows what you mean but sometimes it just sounds odd. too much pot in my youth if that is possible.
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