Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 The Bills demonstrated they were not going to invest in protection when they failed to engage successfully in an effort to keep Wil Wolford here. Due to the case that Mr. Ralph decided to deal with the salary cap as a businessman rather than as a sportsman, there was no way the Bills were going to handle or ignore the cap except on Mr. Ralph's terms. This thread is anchored in the past as long as its primary purpose is to pay tribute to Kelly. However, it actually deals with both the future and the seat of our current problems to the extent it focuses on the poor football and personnel management policies of Mr. Ralph. The amazing point made clear by your original post is that even outsiders like you and I could tell in 96 that Jimbo after some great and glorious service which merited the HOF in my book was done as a player. Yet, an insider, Mr. Ralph who should have known better made a handshake deal with Jimbo only he could make that said he would reward Jimbo in his next contract which never happened. The Bills have continually suffered from bad football judgments either made by or kicked off by this handshake deal which saw the Bills make killer mistake after killer mistake after it kept messing up the QB situation often by overreaching in a stupid search for a new savior. This is the story today and may well be repeated if we use the #3 for Gabbert (or possibly Newton if he falls to #3. Agreed but I believe that Gabbert will be a franchise QB and it should be with us. Newton has the talent but not the mind for QB. I don't think his arm was as bad as some here are saying it just looked bad when under constant duress like all the QBs we have had since him till now. Jim wasn't that old and there were good trainers then that could have gotten his arm up to par if need be. Ralph paid him a million to retire when he should have spent it on the line. I really hope we invest in our line this and the next few years or any QB won't make it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 24, 2011 Author Share Posted April 24, 2011 Sorry, but that is complete BS. The Bills slapped Wolford with the transition tag, meaning the Bills could match any offer Wolford accepted. The Colts offered Wolford a contract that contained a "poison pill", making it virtually impossible for the Bills to match the offer. When the Bills lost in arbitration (yes, they even tried to get the Colts offer declared illegal), they had no choice but to let Wolford go. My link Doesn't mean you can't get another one, besides they should have signed before the colts offered. Fina was average and didn't even get a sniff in free agency when we released him, bottom line is we need to get better up front or we will never get better. Hopefully Solder drops to the second and with a few years of lifting and teaching he will be our starting LT for a decade. Maybe Moffit, James Carpenter or James Brewer will be there in the fourth to solidify the right side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilsner Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Is english your first language? I feel like I'm reading a google translation. Now be nice. Generally I consider HPlarrm's posts to be well thought out and written. His grasp of the English language seems to be well above mine and many on this board. Doesn't matter whether I agree with him or not, he conveys his points well. I look forward to his posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Is english your first language? I feel like I'm reading a google translation. Que? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Sorry, but that is complete BS. The Bills slapped Wolford with the transition tag, meaning the Bills could match any offer Wolford accepted. The Colts offered Wolford a contract that contained a "poison pill", making it virtually impossible for the Bills to match the offer. When the Bills lost in arbitration (yes, they even tried to get the Colts offer declared illegal), they had no choice but to let Wolford go. My link Actually, while hindsight is 20/20 so my advice is generally correct now, where I felt the Bills fell short of doing what was necessary to sign Wolford was that if the FO had played this correctly, they would not have had to use the tag as their fallback on Wolford (and thus would never have been subject to a poison pill). My recollection of the situation was that the Bills chose not to sign Wolford well before he hit the FA market because they were reluctant to establish a contract amount for him which other Bills OL players would have used to increase their salaries. As such they played tough with Wolford which not only gave another team a chance to do something like the poison pill but also pissed Wolford off so that he was willing to sign on with another team. If you think about this in the limited fashion you have chosen to justify your claim this is complete BS (at worst it is simply partial BS due to the 20/20 issues), but if you take a fuller view and see that the problem was Mr. Ralph and Littman consistently treating this as a business problem rather than a sportsman's opportunity, intelligent managers would have done what was necessary to keep our OL as intact as possible for as long as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JinWPB Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 SORRY,...As much as Jimbo was to the Bills it was PAINFUL to watch that last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Doesn't mean you can't get another one, They did. His name was John Fina. Hindsight tells us Fina was no where near as good as Wolford, but that's why its called hindsight. In 1993, such hindsight was not available to the Bills. besides they should have signed before the colts offered. And after every draft, I hear a similar argument from the people who say the Bills should have traded down. It's just that simple and easy, right? bottom line is we need to get better up front or we will never get better. About the only thing we agree on. Hopefully Solder drops to the second and with a few years of lifting and teaching he will be our starting LT for a decade. Maybe Moffit, James Carpenter or James Brewer will be there in the fourth to solidify the right side. I take it you are making assumptions these guys will be good. I wonder how these guys will be viewed with hindsight 10 to 15 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Or we coulda just played Flutie. That forward pass is the football gods punishing Ralph for forcing RJ on the coach and the team, or Karma, whatever you wanna believe. But thinking they arent related is just being naive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 25, 2011 Author Share Posted April 25, 2011 They did. His name was John Fina. Hindsight tells us Fina was no where near as good as Wolford,I take it you are making assumptions these guys will be good. I wonder how these guys will be viewed with hindsight 10 to 15 years from now. Fina stunk as I already stated and after a few not 10 to 15 years you upgrade, when a player isnt cutting it, you draft a new one. Will those guys be good? who knows, but see above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Actually, while hindsight is 20/20 so my advice is generally correct now, No, your advice is still not "generally correct now". where I felt the Bills fell short of doing what was necessary to sign Wolford was that if the FO had played this correctly, they would not have had to use the tag as their fallback on Wolford (and thus would never have been subject to a poison pill). You are over simplifying what was a complex problem. Wolford was only 1 piece of the problem at the time. My recollection of the situation was that the Bills chose not to sign Wolford well before he hit the FA market because they were reluctant to establish a contract amount for him which other Bills OL players would have used to increase their salaries. Would be a nice recollection except the Bills signed Glenn Parker (the starting RG at the time) to an extension which made him the highest paid OL during the same off season (and prior to Wolford leaving for Indy). Seems kind of dubious to say the were playing hard ball with Wolford because they were afraid of escalating salaries along the OL, when in reality they were willing to (and did) make their RG the teams highest paid OL. If you think about this in the limited fashion you have chosen to justify your claim this is complete BS (at worst it is simply partial BS due to the 20/20 issues), but if you take a fuller view and see that the problem was Mr. Ralph and Littman consistently treating this as a business problem rather than a sportsman's opportunity, intelligent managers would have done what was necessary to keep our OL as intact as possible for as long as possible. I hate to disagree with you, but if anybody is looking at the Wolford situation with a limited view, it's you. Your hindsight "analysis" of the situation is it at best questionable and at worst, comical. Your "analysis" ignores the reality and circumstances surrounding the team at that time. 1993 was the first year of free agency as we know it today. - The Bills had 11 players qualifying for free agency including Wolford, Jeff Wright, and Shane Conlan. - The transition tag not only allowed the Bills to match any offer, it also meant the Bills had to offer and pay Wolford 120% of his old contract or the average of the 10 highest paid players at that position (which ever was highest). 1993 was also the first year of the salary cap (34 million if IIRC). - Kelly was being paid 3+ million a year alone. (stop and think about that. 1 player is eating up 10% of the available cap) - Thurman, Bruce, and Bennett were also receiving very sizable salaries during this time period. - Penalties for surpassing the salary cap included fines, suspension of players, loss of players, and/or loss of draft picks (but the decision making was all about business, right?) Glenn Parker was made the teams highest paid OL John Butler was the GM (if Butler was known for anything, he wasn't shy about spending money on players) The reason the Bills were contesting the Colts offer was due to the "poison pill". If it wasn't for that clause, the Bills would have matched the Colts offer. FYI: Because of Wolford's contract, the following year, the NFL banned those types of contracts (the overall financial payout had to be the same for both teams) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPhan Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Jim Kelly should have stayed through the 99 season and "homerun throw up" wouldn't have happened and we would have beat the Rams in the superbowl. I remember back in 96 thinking that Jim was getting old and needed to move on, however in retrospect had we focused on the offensive line he could have kept playing on like Elway and Marino did and would have finished his career with a ring. Granted he was becoming more immobile but if we had two probowl tackles and then Kent Hull would have stayed Kelly would have had all the time in the world to make plays. We had a great defense with Hansen, Washington, Bruce, Sam Cowart, Winfield and then Eric Moulds, Peerless price on offense with Riemersma and the running game still serviceable it could have been easily worked out. So hopefully when we get our next franchise QB we will keep him as long as possible like Peyton Manning who is still in his prime and is going into his 13th year, one more than Jim's pro career. You are forgetting the two seasons Kelly played in the USFL for the Houston Gamblers. He played in the run and shoot and got sacked like 50 or more times each season. So he actually played 14 years of pro football, and he really was pretty much done after that forgettable playoff loss to the Jaguars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Were talking about 1996 here man...19 freaking 96...I dont even know if I had internet back then...let it go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Were talking about 1996 here man...19 freaking 96...I dont even know if I had internet back then...let it go I did, dialup AOL. But didn't find D&C/TBD until 98 or 99. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 he got his bell rung in his last playoff game and it was clear he was not the player he had been. He picked the appropriate time to retire. He was our greatest quarterback. Actually if you ever saw him break legs after an interception and if you knew that Paterno recruited him as a linebacker, having on the kick return game against Tennessee might not have been a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Doesn't mean you can't get another one, besides they should have signed before the colts offered. Fina was average and didn't even get a sniff in free agency when we released him, bottom line is we need to get better up front or we will never get better. Hopefully Solder drops to the second and with a few years of lifting and teaching he will be our starting LT for a decade. Maybe Moffit, James Carpenter or James Brewer will be there in the fourth to solidify the right side. Fina had just finished his rookie year & was drafted #1 to start, not sit on the bench. They didn't plan on him being average. As far as your statement on Fina & free agency-you're wrong-you have revised history. When Fina's 1st contract ended, the Bills had to put the franchise tag on him for fear of losing him-the Jets are at least 1 team that wanted him. He ended up playing 10 seasons for the Bills, then when he was released after 10 seasons, hardly a disgrace, he signed with Arizona. If he "didn't get a sniff" how did he end up with Arizona? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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