/dev/null Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 You'll go 20 miles out of your way (10 out, 10 back) to save $10? So, apparently you aren't exaggerating when you state you don't put much value on your time. He's got a government job so he's got plenty of time to waste Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 just dropped over $70 filling up my truck.... ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Nothing... Just rambling. Taxes and blends get the blame here and that is just not the reason. The reason is human greed and the distribution system in place. Just commenting on how consumers need some sort of "game changer" when dealing with the petrol distribution system/network. Consumers are most at the mercy of this system. Is there anyway around it? This system and its shocks effect so many other systems IMO, this system is the main reason our economy was pushed over the precipice a few years back. Drive along a 80 mile stretch of I-57 in Illinois and it is 50-60 cents a gallon difference... And we are talking about rural counties and areas that are basically the same (not Cook county). Same gas. NOW: On the water, if you buy your gas for a boat... Say at a dock, it is standard that $1.00 to 1.50 more is charged more... I assume, for enviro reasons? How exactly does that regulatory situation work out? Different types of permits and delivery systems in place? Also: Diesel is 50 cents cheaper... And E-85 is about a buck cheaper... In "corn country", E-85 is just over 3 bucks a gallon. Because of the convenience of filling up on the water they can get away with charging more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Because of the convenience of filling up on the water they can get away with charging more. If you have ever owned a boat you know how much of a pain it is to trailer it to the gas station to fill it up. 5 gallon jugs aren't much easier either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If you have ever owned a boat you know how much of a pain it is to trailer it to the gas station to fill it up. 5 gallon jugs aren't much easier either... If you trailer your boat all the time its no big deal, but if you keep it in a slip you don't really have a choice. We had a guy at a local yacht club have gas delivered to him (he had a true yacht) by some type of tanker. When the club found out he was fined the difference. When I had a place on the water and my own dock I played with the idea of purchasing a portable tank. The people selling gas on the water sure do take advantage though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 just dropped over $70 filling up my truck.... ugh. Costs me $50 CAD to fill up a 2000 Honda Civic. So essentially 52.08 at todays FX rate. Cry me a river. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Costs me $50 CAD to fill up a 2000 Honda Civic. So essentially 52.08 at todays FX rate. Cry me a river. Cost me $40 to fill the Prius. I was shocked; it's never cost me more than $25 before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Cost me $40 to fill the Prius. I was shocked; it's never cost me more than $25 before now. My solution to the gas prices is I walk to work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 According to my friend that owns a gas station, though the rack price charged by the distributor changes daily, the station owner sets the pump price on his own after surveying what the nearby competitors are doing and where rack cost is headed. The distributor will assist the station owner in setting price if asked, but the owner has final say in retail price. I saw this one while driving last night. 3 stations all within a mile of each other. The first was priced at $4.25 and then the next two were both $3.99. I'd love to know what idiots are actually dumb enough to stop at that first place. That first place looked to be some kind of local owned place with no recognizable name on it. The other two were BP and Shell (not sure on the second, but it was definitely one of the big chains). Oh, and a couple hours later when I drove past again, that first place was up to $4.29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 I saw this one while driving last night. 3 stations all within a mile of each other. The first was priced at $4.25 and then the next two were both $3.99. I'd love to know what idiots are actually dumb enough to stop at that first place. That first place looked to be some kind of local owned place with no recognizable name on it. The other two were BP and Shell (not sure on the second, but it was definitely one of the big chains). Oh, and a couple hours later when I drove past again, that first place was up to $4.29. Depending on state laws and stuff, some gas contains ethanol and some doesn't. Here in OK, the regular gas (non-ethanol) runs about $0.10 higher than the 10% ethanol stuff for general 87 octane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Also: Diesel is 50 cents cheaper... And E-85 is about a buck cheaper... In "corn country", E-85 is just over 3 bucks a gallon. Careful now. Ethanol has 30% less energy content than oil derived gasoline. So, E85 will have (0.15 gasoline + 0.7*.85) = ~0.75 times the energy of regular, oil-derived gasoline. Energy 'factors' Oil-derived gasoline = 1.0 10% ethanol blend = 0.97 E85 = 0.75 Which means that you have to fill up E85 about 23% more frequently than E10. So at a buck cheaper (assuming regular E10 is ~ $4), you are about breaking even regarding $/mile driven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Careful now. Ethanol has 30% less energy content than oil derived gasoline. So, E85 will have (0.15 gasoline + 0.7*.85) = ~0.75 times the energy of regular, oil-derived gasoline. Energy 'factors' Oil-derived gasoline = 1.0 10% ethanol blend = 0.97 E85 = 0.75 Which means that you have to fill up E85 about 23% more frequently than E10. So at a buck cheaper (assuming regular E10 is ~ $4), you are about breaking even regarding $/mile driven. But it's renewable!* (*Fertilizer and topsoil not included.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 But it's renewable!* (*Fertilizer and topsoil not included.) I Googled "ethanol studies" and this is what I got. http://www.google.com/search?q=ethanol+studies&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7ADBF_en Look at the different opinions. I'm of the opinion that the more ethanol we can use the better off we will be. Less food means less people. Less people means less energy needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 My solution to the gas prices is I walk to work Likewise. Between the price of gas and the headache of rush hour traffic, I just don't get the people that commute upwards of an hour or more.... I know not everyone can get to a situation where they can walk depending on a variety of factors but... It's real nice. More expensive housing but I make it up quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Just spin it... got to love this one: if the banks are causing high commodity prices, then they need to do a better marketing job to the public so as not to get blame.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Speaking facts here... Today they raised the margins for Oil futures trading by 25% today..... In other words, if you are a speculator it costs a lot more for you to speculate on the price of oil than it did before.. In just about all circumstances, this shakes out the speculators in a fundamentally weak market. So what happened? Well... Oil is up for the day. So much for the argument that this market is driven by unjustified speculation. I traded commodities for years, and to see a market go up on the day of the announcement of margin increases pretty much strengthens the argument that these oil prices are justified where they are. Does that mean they wont drop later? No. It could, but for now, the market strongly believes that these prices are where they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 But it's renewable!* (*Fertilizer and topsoil not included.) Aaah yes. Most 'well to wheels' or lifecycle analysis conclude that corn-based ethanol is at best marginally net positive in energy. i.e. all the inputs towards making corn based ethanol (energy for fertilizer, agriculture, processing, production etc) take almost the same energy as is received when that ethanol is burnt in an automobile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Speaking facts here... Today they raised the margins for Oil futures trading by 25% today..... In other words, if you are a speculator it costs a lot more for you to speculate on the price of oil than it did before.. In just about all circumstances, this shakes out the speculators in a fundamentally weak market. So what happened? Well... Oil is up for the day. So much for the argument that this market is driven by unjustified speculation. I traded commodities for years, and to see a market go up on the day of the announcement of margin increases pretty much strengthens the argument that these oil prices are justified where they are. Does that mean they wont drop later? No. It could, but for now, the market strongly believes that these prices are where they should be. Some more facts... 1. Futures markets are more volatile now. Last week's drop exceeded the value on margin. The exchange is looking for a little more protection. 2. With a fixed margin amount, as the value of contracts increases because price is increasing, the margin as a % of value decreases--creating more leverage for all traders. So, when margin was $6,750/contract and oil was $80/ barrel, margin was 8.44% of the total value of a wti contract (1,000 barrels per). With oil at $100, the old margin as a % of value fell to 6.75%. The new margin value raises the % cost back to 8.44% with a $100 price. 3. Don't confuse speculators with investors. My argument is that new instruments (ETFs) have increased the demand for futures contracts that make up the value of the ETF. The USO ETF isn't going to leave the futures market--margin has almost no impact on the demand for ETF futures-related investments. These are passively managed funds. The managers are required to buy a set number of contracts. Margin has a slight impact on the ETF's return. ETFs and swaps are where the demand for futures contracts is being driven, not your so-called traditional speculators who directly participate in the futures markets. 4. The majority of the players in oil now are big banks, pension funds, hedge funds, and I think they have sufficient capital for the additional margin. The days of the individual futures trader speculating and/or making market postions is over. The market has changed since you traded, in case you didn't notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Some more facts... 1. Futures markets are more volatile now. Last week's drop exceeded the value on margin. The exchange is looking for a little more protection. 2. With a fixed margin amount, as the value of contracts increases because price is increasing, the margin as a % of value decreases--creating more leverage for all traders. So, when margin was $6,750/contract and oil was $80/ barrel, margin was 8.44% of the total value of a wti contract (1,000 barrels per). With oil at $100, the old margin as a % of value fell to 6.75%. The new margin value raises the % cost back to 8.44% with a $100 price. 3. Don't confuse speculators with investors. My argument is that new instruments (ETFs) have increased the demand for futures contracts that make up the value of the ETF. The USO ETF isn't going to leave the futures market--margin has almost no impact on the demand for ETF futures-related investments. These are passively managed funds. The managers are required to buy a set number of contracts. Margin has a slight impact on the ETF's return. ETFs and swaps are where the demand for futures contracts is being driven, not your so-called traditional speculators who directly participate in the futures markets. 4. The majority of the players in oil now are big banks, pension funds, hedge funds, and I think they have sufficient capital for the additional margin. The days of the individual futures trader speculating and/or making market postions is over. The market has changed since you traded, in case you didn't notice. You can come up with all the numbers that you want to try to justify your argument, but I know through experience that in the vast majority of cases, when margins are increased, the weak speculative positions get shaken out. The fact that there was a 25% increase in Oil futures margins and the front month crude contract still ended up over 1% on the day speaks volumes on what traders believe is a fair price. Your position regarding the price of oil and how the margin is the same as if the price of oil were at $80 is a bunch of Baloney that comes from someone who has no experience in this field. This argument could of been made for the silver market margin increases, and look what happened there. Investors understood that silver was a momentum move that added alot of froth on the price of silver. Once margins were increased, the hot money came out of the market and prices corrected to a more reasonable price. The point that I am making here is that $100 a barrel oil is a fair market price, and todays market move justified the price. Speaking through experience, margin increases is usually a great trigger for correcting markets. Considering oil already corrected between 10-15% heading into this margin increase, its highly likely that weak speculative money for the most part was already shaken out. Oh, and oil is not more volatile that it has been. The least volatile year that I have seen since 2003 had been 2010, other than that, oil is doing what it has been doing. Also, I do not believe that the exchange is looking for more "protection", they'll get their money, they always do. This was something that came from up above. I'm pretty damn sure it was from an adminstrative official looking to lower gasoline prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TPS Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 You can come up with all the numbers that you want to try to justify your argument, but I know through experience that in the vast majority of cases, when margins are increased, the weak speculative positions get shaken out. The fact that there was a 25% increase in Oil futures margins and the front month crude contract still ended up over 1% on the day speaks volumes on what traders believe is a fair price. Your position regarding the price of oil and how the margin is the same as if the price of oil were at $80 is a bunch of Baloney that comes from someone who has no experience in this field. This argument could of been made for the silver market margin increases, and look what happened there. Investors understood that silver was a momentum move that added alot of froth on the price of silver. Once margins were increased, the hot money came out of the market and prices corrected to a more reasonable price. The point that I am making here is that $100 a barrel oil is a fair market price, and todays market move justified the price. Speaking through experience, margin increases is usually a great trigger for correcting markets. Considering oil already corrected between 10-15% heading into this margin increase, its highly likely that weak speculative money for the most part was already shaken out. Oh, and oil is not more volatile that it has been. The least volatile year that I have seen since 2003 had been 2010, other than that, oil is doing what it has been doing. Also, I do not believe that the exchange is looking for more "protection", they'll get their money, they always do. This was something that came from up above. I'm pretty damn sure it was from an adminstrative official looking to lower gasoline prices. I don't think it's a fair comparison to say that a margin change in oil should have the same effect as it had in silver. I would agree that $100 is closer to "a fair price" than $112.... Once again, a change in margin won't shake out futures contracts tied to ETfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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