KOKBILLS Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 This is my reason for avoiding an early QB pick. Gailey's produced winners without franchise QB's. However, they were smart, mobile, and good leader/managers. That's Fitz. BTW, it's also some QB's in the later rounds. So how good do you think The Bills would be eventually if Gailey actually HAD a Franchise QB to work with? Like I keep saying Folks...Shoot a little higher...
KOKBILLS Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 It took Drew Brees ~30 career starts before he became DREW BREES! He was so good early on that the Chargers drafted Manning and then traded him for Rivers. Interesting... Fitz has now started 35 Games...In his last 5 Starts he was 2-3...86-156 (55%)...5 TD's to 6 INT's... You keep comparing him to one of the best QB's of All Time...Go ahead...Just be prepared to be disappointed... For the record I hope I'm wrong about Fitz...I like the guy...I just think he's WAY too up and down and the reason he had some success last year was due to Gailey and catching D's unprepared...2011 is the true test for Fitz...We'll see soon enough...
Peace Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 Fits is abotu 3% below the average NFL completion rate. That's a pass a game. Care to wonder where his passing percentage might be if Steve Johnson drops 16 fewer passes last year? Fitz is the closest thing the Bills have had to a leader in a decade. How can you all be missing that? Is he Manning or Drew Brees? Probably not. But how about a gritty Jim McMahon type who makes the entire offense better by being so smart? The Bills need defensiev help right now. QB is not a position of need.
John from Riverside Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 Come on man, that was 3 games and if you watched the games he actually was not very good in any of them. His "stats" look better then he actually played. He struggled to keep drives alive most of the game against NE and Spiller's 2nd half ST TD kept the game from being a blowout. Against the Jets he was horrendous but got an extra TD and yards down 31 points in the final minute of the game. Against Jax, he started good and then vanished in the 2nd half until he got one more garbage TD in the final minute of another blow out. If you want to play that game, then you forget that over his final 9 games after the Balt game, Fitz's QB rating was a putrid 73.48...wanna take a guess as to where that ranks over that span in the NFL? And that is over 9 games, not 3. Which do you think is a better indicator of the norm (especially considering in the 3 games you referenced he actually did not play well either, just had a decent stat line)? 9 Games following Balt game (aka how he finished the season) 174 comp, 313 att = 56% comp percentage 2023 yards 12 TD's (and 4 came in a single game against Cincy) 16 Turnovers QB Rating: 73.48 How many games do you think a team likely wins in a 9 game stretch when the QB performs like that?.....Probably not many What are the odds said team makes the playoffs?.....Slim Fitz numbers deteriorated along with an awful lot of injuries around him though should we not point that out? We lost wide receivers......the offensive line was talking injuries and they were trying to figure out the pieces at RT...... I am in "wait and see mode" with Fitz like everyone else.....I just want to see him given a fair chance: - Dont draft a friggen TE receiving threat! Give him a veteran target to throw to....based on what he did with a tall lank Nelson over the middle I think a beat tight end to throw to would do wonders for Fitz - Solidify the line.....If we are going to go with Pears then fine....if we are going to draft someone fine...if we are going to bring in a free agent fine....but lets solidify the thing....give Fitz a solid running game to keep defenses from pinning their ears back.....and give him some time to go through his progressions....ESPECIALLY when we get in the red zone - And lets at least put a defense on the field where Fitz does not feel like he has to score 6 every single posession.....I think that when a QB is trying to manage a game and they feel like they HAVE to score a touchdown on every position becase a. The defense cant stop anybody and b. The defense cant stop an opposing offense from chewing up the clock and c. The defense cant create turnovers.....then you are not taking what a defense gives you....you are FORCING IT....hence you throw picks because you start to take too many chances Let just give him a legit chance to prove himself.....lets draft a QB in the 2nd round just in case Fitz does not end up being the next Jim Kelly to groom but lets put a team around Fitz that gives him a chance for success.......instead of forcing Fitz to make a risky throw at the end of the game trying to win it lets improve in other areas so he doesn't have to.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 Fitz numbers deteriorated along with an awful lot of injuries around him though should we not point that out? We lost wide receivers......the offensive line was talking injuries and they were trying to figure out the pieces at RT...... You can point that out Alpha sure to have some Dawg-gone reason why it don't matter. He's On the Trail: Fitz sucks and can never improve. MagicalFranchiseGuy will be able to block for himself and catch his own passes. He'll also play both sides: stop the run, too, and get the ball back for himself. Football is a team sport, no matter how often one points that out somehow it's all about the QB...all the time.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 22, 2011 Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Fitz numbers deteriorated along with an awful lot of injuries around him though should we not point that out? We lost wide receivers......the offensive line was talking injuries and they were trying to figure out the pieces at RT...... I am in "wait and see mode" with Fitz like everyone else.....I just want to see him given a fair chance: - Dont draft a friggen TE receiving threat! Give him a veteran target to throw to....based on what he did with a tall lank Nelson over the middle I think a beat tight end to throw to would do wonders for Fitz - Solidify the line.....If we are going to go with Pears then fine....if we are going to draft someone fine...if we are going to bring in a free agent fine....but lets solidify the thing....give Fitz a solid running game to keep defenses from pinning their ears back.....and give him some time to go through his progressions....ESPECIALLY when we get in the red zone - And lets at least put a defense on the field where Fitz does not feel like he has to score 6 every single posession.....I think that when a QB is trying to manage a game and they feel like they HAVE to score a touchdown on every position becase a. The defense cant stop anybody and b. The defense cant stop an opposing offense from chewing up the clock and c. The defense cant create turnovers.....then you are not taking what a defense gives you....you are FORCING IT....hence you throw picks because you start to take too many chances Let just give him a legit chance to prove himself.....lets draft a QB in the 2nd round just in case Fitz does not end up being the next Jim Kelly to groom but lets put a team around Fitz that gives him a chance for success.......instead of forcing Fitz to make a risky throw at the end of the game trying to win it lets improve in other areas so he doesn't have to. I am confused? What do you mean deteriorated? That means it was good at some point...I showed you the final 9 games...you say his play deteriorated during those 9 games because of circumstances impyling that it was good prior to those 9 games. I find that interesting since he in the 4 games before that...NE, Jets, Jax, and then Balt...he was awful against the Jets, not very good against NE and Jax, and then the Balt game. So what are you basing this on? One game against Balt? A game we LOST where Fitz was both a key reason we almost pulled off the upset and at the same time a key reason why we lost because his 2 bad INT's in the 3rd gave away our double digit lead for good. So how can you say his game deteriorated over the 9 weeks when it was almost identical to his level of play in just about every game he has ever played in his career, including the prior 4 games? Edited April 23, 2011 by Alphadawg7
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Alpha.....your on the one track and not listening to what I am trying to say.....so we will just agree to diagree
Alphadawg7 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) You can point that out Alpha sure to have some Dawg-gone reason why it don't matter. He's On the Trail: Fitz sucks and can never improve. MagicalFranchiseGuy will be able to block for himself and catch his own passes. He'll also play both sides: stop the run, too, and get the ball back for himself. Football is a team sport, no matter how often one points that out somehow it's all about the QB...all the time. News Flash: You do realize that when Fitz is making a throw our defense is not on the field right? Seriously, why do people keep bringing this up to defend Fitz when the big problem people have with him is how inconsistent he is with his accuracy? If you want to bring it up to defend our record, then fine. But enough about this as some kind of defense of Fitz's accuracy issues which are rooted in his mechanics and marginal arm strength that causes him to put everything he has on a ball to deliver it. Just like when you swing as hard as you can in golf...when you connect you seem like you have more power than you do and its a thing of beauty...but it severely decreases your ability to hit the ball accurately. Fitz has the same problem...he doesnt have natural zip, and you can literally see his whole delivery change when he is trying to hit a small window on a timing route, an out pattern, or down field. The guy is a great teammate and leader no doubt. But its not our D or anything else that make him inaccurate. He has always struggled with accuracy because of how he throws the ball and his mechanics. And unfortunately, the things plaguing his accuracy are actually difficult to over come, especially at this stage of his career. But go ahead and scream 23 TD's one more time because I am sure that will fix all his issues and he will be the second coming of Jimbo like some people seem to see in him. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Fitz be a top 10 QB...I just don't think his ability will allow him to be much better than he was this year and that won't be good enough to make this team a serious contender again. Edited April 23, 2011 by Alphadawg7
NoSaint Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Fits is abotu 3% below the average NFL completion rate. That's a pass a game. Care to wonder where his passing percentage might be if Steve Johnson drops 16 fewer passes last year? Fitz is the closest thing the Bills have had to a leader in a decade. How can you all be missing that? Is he Manning or Drew Brees? Probably not. But how about a gritty Jim McMahon type who makes the entire offense better by being so smart? The Bills need defensiev help right now. QB is not a position of need. I like fitz, I really do but I don't see a ring with him. I also want to point out the bills had less drops than almost any of the teams with better % brees, Brady, manning all had more dropped balls. I just feel like anyone making comparisons to the top tier guys hasn't watched a top tier guy for 16, or 32 straight games since Kelly. There's a huge difference between fitz and them.
Speedy G Posted April 23, 2011 Author Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) The bottom line is that Fitz is stepping up and leading! Even if Fitz isnt the answer, a newbie can learn how to play QB in this league from Fitz (i.e...how to prepare, study film, learn opponents tendencies, etc.). The defense needs to be improved so whoever is QB can count on them to get the ball back if a drive fails force turnovers and even score points! I think defensive stud at #3, QB at #34, then more defense with O-line sprinkled somewhere in there. The 1st 3 picks need to produce at least 2 starters and the rest need to be quality depth. Year 2 for this staff should show marked improvement, especially on the defensive side, I think Wandstadt will have a huge impact. He has alot more experience than George Edwards and could take his place in an instant, but logically they will work together well because Chan is the glue. All in all, this draft is critical for this team if they want to get out of the basement, because if you want to run with the big dogs, you gotta come off the porch ! they've been porch dwellers for way to long, C'mon Buddy, show us the baby !!! Edited April 23, 2011 by Speedy G
Alphadawg7 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Alpha.....your on the one track and not listening to what I am trying to say.....so we will just agree to diagree On the one track? Funny, I am in all kinds of threads on all kinds of topics, yet I am "on the one track" because I won't change my mind about Fitz's struggles this year? So should I say you are "on the one track" because you always defend him? I guess everyone on this board who doesn't change his opinion on any given topic is "on the one track". The funny part, is that all the same people who say things like that are also all the same people in all kinds of QB threads defending Fitz over and over again. Funny how they dont get labeled for being "on the one track" though... I simply asked you a logical question in response to what you literally said about how his play "deteriorated" implying that it was previously good. You said it, not me, and I simply was asking how you could say it deteriorated when his level of play the rest of the year very much resembled his play in 3 of his other 4 games. But like you said...we can just agree to disagree, no biggie.
Doc Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 It's either sink or swim with Fitz this year. All of the guys coming out have major question marks, so reaching for one early wouldn't be smart. Give Fitz the full prep time as the starter and get him some more help like a RT and a TE.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 It's either sink or swim with Fitz this year. All of the guys coming out have major question marks, so reaching for one early wouldn't be smart. Give Fitz the full prep time as the starter and get him some more help like a RT and a TE. I agree, all of the QB's have a degree of risk, but honestly, that's just about every QB every year come draft time. That being said, I would much prefer to go D at #3 (or trade back and pick up extra needed picks) and take a QB in the 2nd, especially because I think Mallet could fall to us there and he is the guy I think is the best passer in the draft.
KOKBILLS Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 It's either sink or swim with Fitz this year. All of the guys coming out have major question marks, so reaching for one early wouldn't be smart. Give Fitz the full prep time as the starter and get him some more help like a RT and a TE. So the question is...How are Bills Fans going to feel if Fitz does not cut it, we still don't have a QB behind him, and we win just enough to have zero chance at Andrew Luck?...Remember...If Fitz falls off in 2011 there is almost zero chance he'll be around in 2012...And this is The Buffalo Bills we're talking about here...Preparing for the worst case situation should be S.O.P... And if that happens I'm guessing ALL the Fitz backers would give their left arm for Gabbert at that point... Not saying that will happen...Just saying...
Doc Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I agree, all of the QB's have a degree of risk, but honestly, that's just about every QB every year come draft time. That being said, I would much prefer to go D at #3 (or trade back and pick up extra needed picks) and take a QB in the 2nd, especially because I think Mallet could fall to us there and he is the guy I think is the best passer in the draft. I'd consider a QB at 34, but Mallet has major character concerns. So the question is...How are Bills Fans going to feel if Fitz does not cut it, we still don't have a QB behind him, and we win just enough to have zero chance at Andrew Luck?...Remember...If Fitz falls off in 2011 there is almost zero chance he'll be around in 2012...And this is The Buffalo Bills we're talking about here...Preparing for the worst case situation should be S.O.P... And if that happens I'm guessing ALL the Fitz backers would give their left arm for Gabbert at that point... Not saying that will happen...Just saying... If Fitz doesn't cut it and Gabbert looks good, sure it will sting. But that remains to be seen.
Speedy G Posted April 23, 2011 Author Posted April 23, 2011 I agree, all of the QB's have a degree of risk, but honestly, that's just about every QB every year come draft time. That being said, I would much prefer to go D at #3 (or trade back and pick up extra needed picks) and take a QB in the 2nd, especially because I think Mallet could fall to us there and he is the guy I think is the best passer in the draft. Kelly wasn't the most morally responsible adult but he could toss the pill, so if Mallet is there and they think he's the bee's knee's, pull the trigger!
KOKBILLS Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I'd consider a QB at 34, but Mallet has major character concerns. If Fitz doesn't cut it and Gabbert looks good, sure it will sting. But that remains to be seen. I should say too with all my support for Gabbert I'm about 100% sure they are going to take Miller... I guess it would not seem as bad to me if we had not been feeling the sting of similar choices for years now...I just feel like, at this point...Who knows how Gabbert will play as a Buffalo Bills QB?...I really have no idea...But chances are, with the luck of this Franchise, if we pass on him he's gonna be the next Montana...
JESSEFEFFER Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I like fitz, I really do but I don't see a ring with him. I also want to point out the bills had less drops than almost any of the teams with better % brees, Brady, manning all had more dropped balls. I just feel like anyone making comparisons to the top tier guys hasn't watched a top tier guy for 16, or 32 straight games since Kelly. There's a huge difference between fitz and them. Fitzpatrick's 2010 numbers are better than Jay Cutler's 2010 season and VERY similar to Eli Manning's average for the last 4 seasons. Are these two "franchise" caliber, in your opinion? They were drafted in the 1st round, they have big contracts, and Eli managed to lead his team to a Super Bowl win. Just wondering because some would say yes and others would not. If you look at Manning's game by game numbers you'll see them bounce around also. Part of that is the reality of playing outdoors in the northeast during November and December. With regard to Fitz, the late season decline you cite is heavily the result of the Minnesota and New England games. The other seven were not that bad. As a matter of fact, the Bills were the Lindell missed OT field goal and the SJ OT drop from winning six of the seven. Were the 2010 Bills capable of having a 6 and 3 stretch with substandard QB play? I say no.
RuntheDamnBall Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 My question about this is where are Lee Evans, Shawn Nelson, and C.J. Spiller? How does this show on their part? I know people have things to do, but it seems like all of these other guys are the ones making the effort. I'd imagine they are home emptying the old hundred dollar bills out of the bathtub and filling it up with fresh ones, playing video games and eating Chee-tos®. I mean, if they're not at Ryan Fitzpatrick's house, they're obviously not working hard and can pretty much be branded as poor teammates if not outright criminals. No, I said he was laughing about Fitz...And then I said "experts..." The quotations were purposeful...And he may not be an expert on QB's...But he sure as hell is an expert on how to Defend against them...Don't let his act fool you....The guy knows Football...He's not an idiot...He just acts like one sometimes...And I would definitely take his opinion over a lot of Bills Fans...Not all, but a lot... Sanders is an idiot, bar none, and he's the worst kind - an idiot who thinks everything he says is either brilliant or hilarious. You can't dispute a fact.
NoSaint Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) Fitzpatrick's 2010 numbers are better than Jay Cutler's 2010 season and VERY similar to Eli Manning's average for the last 4 seasons. Are these two "franchise" caliber, in your opinion? They were drafted in the 1st round, they have big contracts, and Eli managed to lead his team to a Super Bowl win. Just wondering because some would say yes and others would not. If you look at Manning's game by game numbers you'll see them bounce around also. Part of that is the reality of playing outdoors in the northeast during November and December. With regard to Fitz, the late season decline you cite is heavily the result of the Minnesota and New England games. The other seven were not that bad. As a matter of fact, the Bills were the Lindell missed OT field goal and the SJ OT drop from winning six of the seven. Were the 2010 Bills capable of having a 6 and 3 stretch with substandard QB play? I say no. Those are precisely the comparisons fitz fans should be using right now. I consider both those guys as benchmarks for the second tier. just using some names for benchmarks, without formally ranking 1-20 1st - brees, manning, Brady, big ben, rivers, Rogers... Vick wants to be here. He's probably just below the cut from my call. 2nd- Eli, cutler, romo, and I'd say young guys like Matt Ryan, flacco, even Josh Freeman who played phenomenally last year. Entrenched starters, with a good team I could see them with rings, but on an average team probably not. Consistency issues in a lot of them (ie inconsistent or don't have a long term resume like the guys above). Young guys showing signs of the taking the next step. A guy lilkehassleback is probably the bottom cusp of this and descending. A guy like Bradford is with him moving the opposite way. A guy like Sanchez is sitting here, trying to decide which way to go. 3rd - I think fitz is a good bet for this area, lower end starter to elite backup. Journeymen. Hes probably sitting in the top cusp of this, hoping he can end up in that top 10-15 qbs of the second tier. Can trust a team to them but will likely not get more than a season or two at the helm because of physical or mental limitations. Also guys that never took that next step- David garrard, kyle orton, kitna, gradkowski, jeff garcia, even a Trent dilfer (with his ring) would be the meaty part of this to throw out names over the last few years. These guys can make noise but aren't going to have you knocking on the door every year, even with good teams. They, when placed on a superbowl team, are the limiting factor. Like I said, he's probably the high end of this tier. A strong, winning season would put him at the bottom of tier two, instead of the top of tier 3 for me. Edited April 23, 2011 by NoSaint
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