Merriman / Moats....

[Bangarang]

Really? I'm not even going to respond to that comment.

 

Shawne Merriman last 4 years. 44 tackles, 4 sacks, 0 INT, 0 FF,

Arthur Moats last year - 33 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 0 INT, 1 FF

 

If Merriman was 100% healthy, do you think the Chargers would've let him go and would've signed in Buffalo? I don't think so. So if Merriman was 100% healthy, he STILL wouldn't be the best OLB on our team because he most likely wouldn't even BE on this team.

 

Just so we clear, are you saying that Merriman has not proven to be a dominant LB in the NFL? I'm not saying that he's been dominant recently because he obviously hasn't. But he's obviously had significant injuries that he's tried to play through. I don't know why when you bring up his last 3 (not 4) years you act as though he's been 100% or even close to it. You fail to mention that in those 3 years, he only played in 18 games due to injuries. Moats' highest potential doesn't even come close to the domination that Merriman once had in the league. If Merriman can get remotely healthy, I don't see why you wouldn't go with him over Moats.

[Max997]

this is the question ive been asking since all the Miller talk started....Moats was the Bills best defensive player last year after Williams and not that i think they can count on Merriman but after signing him and having Moats on other side where exactly does Miller fit? plus they still have Batten who the Bills seemed to be very high on

 

i think its going to be Gabbert...all signs pointed to Spiller last year and all signs are starting to point towards Gabbert this year

[K-9]

Really? I'm not even going to respond to that comment.

 

Shawne Merriman last 4 years. 44 tackles, 4 sacks, 0 INT, 0 FF,

Arthur Moats last year - 33 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 0 INT, 1 FF

 

If Merriman was 100% healthy, do you think the Chargers would've let him go and would've signed in Buffalo? I don't think so. So if Merriman was 100% healthy, he STILL wouldn't be the best OLB on our team because he most likely wouldn't even BE on this team.

 

Of course Merriman wasn't 100% healthy. That fact made it easy for SD to make the decision to waive him. The question is, is he healthy now? We'll see.

 

But your stat comparison is ludicrous since Merriman has been out of action for most of the last three seasons. But, if you insist on comparing the numbers over the last FOUR years like you did above, then please add his 2007 stats:

 

68 tackles, 12.5 sacks, 2 FF

 

Or, if you wish to take a ludicrous stat comparison even further, how about comparing Merriman's rookie year to Moats' rookie year so we can get a better idea of where they were at the same stages of their careers?

 

See how ridiculous stat comparisons can be?

 

Bottom line is if Merriman can come back at HALF of his previous productivity, he's STILL a better OLB than Moats. Especially in run and pass defense. Two areas that Moats has shown no ability as of yet.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DreReed83]

Just so we clear, are you saying that Merriman has not proven to be a dominant LB in the NFL? I'm not saying that he's been dominant recently because he obviously hasn't. But he's obviously had significant injuries that he's tried to play through. I don't know why when you bring up his last 3 (not 4) years you act as though he's been 100% or even close to it. You fail to mention that in those 3 years, he only played in 18 games due to injuries. Moats' highest potential doesn't even come close to the domination that Merriman once had in the league. If Merriman can get remotely healthy, I don't see why you wouldn't go with him over Moats.

 

I DON'T GIVE A SHT WHAT HE DID 5,6, OR 7 YEARS AGO. I just don't CARE. Great. What good is that going to do us NOW? Keep bringing up his past. Was he dominant? Yes. What's he done the last 2 years? NOTHING.

 

I never said he wasn't once dominant did I? He was, but I just really dont give a sht about what he did with the Chargers.

 

What's Merriman done NOW? Keep bringing up Merriman's number from 6 or 7 years ago cuz I don't care. All I care about is what they can do for us NOW and who is a better option for us NOW. NOW being the key word. Not 5 years ago. Not 6 or 7 years ago. NOW. Key Word: NOW. N-O-W. NOW.

 

Merriman ONCE had in this league. NO MORE. If Merriman can get 100% better and play like he did 6 years ago? Of course. BUT that's not the case NOW is he. Key word. NOW.

[Pete]

Moats & Merriman have 8 games between them as major parts of the Bills defense, all coming in Moats rookie season.

Exactly. I like Moats and think he might be a solid player for us. But our linebackers were abysmal last year and there are no guarantees Merriman and Moats are the answer. That is putting a lot of faith that Merriman can overcome a severe injury. And how much of his performance was steroid based? He was great 4 years ago. It has been awhile since I have seen Merriman show that kind of ability. And it is quite the assumption to think Moats will be the pass rusher we are desperate for and solve our rush defense problems.

 

As far as Kelsay- the Bills see something in him I don't see- just like Aaron Maybin, Derek Dockery, Cornell Green etc. We continually let good players walk and overpay for mediocre players. Kelsay is decent depth, but hardly someone I would pay like they are a cornerstone of the franchise.

 

And like my original post stated- Kyle Williams is the only player on defense that earned his starting position IMO. Every other position can be upgraded and there should be open competition. May the best player win

[Matt in KC]

I DON'T GIVE A SHT WHAT HE DID 5,6, OR 7 YEARS AGO. I just don't CARE. Great. What good is that going to do us NOW? Keep bringing up his past. Was he dominant? Yes. What's he done the last 2 years? NOTHING.

 

I never said he wasn't once dominant did I? He was, but I just really dont give a sht about what he did with the Chargers.

 

What's Merriman done NOW? Keep bringing up Merriman's number from 6 or 7 years ago cuz I don't care. All I care about is what they can do for us NOW and who is a better option for us NOW. NOW being the key word. Not 5 years ago. Not 6 or 7 years ago. NOW. Key Word: NOW. N-O-W. NOW.

 

Merriman ONCE had in this league. NO MORE. If Merriman can get 100% better and play like he did 6 years ago? Of course. BUT that's not the case NOW is he. Key word. NOW.

 

You've kind of changed your focus since post #36 in this thread when you asked the question bolded below, which others have been responding to.

Merriman? What has he done? Merriman had 4 sacks in his last 4 years. Moats has 2 sacks in his last 4 games. Not to mention that Moats is probably healthier AND younger. And you'd start Merriman?

 

Who has a higher upside and more potential? Moats.

Moats is clearly doing more for the Bills now, if by now you mean last season.

 

I don't think Merriman is returning to his old form (or better). I personally think there's artound a 50% chnce he returns to 75% of his peak performance. For Moats, I think there's a 25% percent chance he gets to that level or better (75% of Merriman's peak). I interpret all these probabilities as Merriman having the better upside potential.

 

That said, I'd want both to play enough that we'd know who's the better player and make sure they're on the field when the games count.

[Meark]

Simple solution to this question.. Draft Dareous.. we need DE's more than we need LB's.. The #3 pick should only be a DE or a QB..

 

I still have high hopes on Moats.. I mean he did end Brett Favre's games started streak.. as shown in my avatar.

[KOKBILLS]

this is the question ive been asking since all the Miller talk started....Moats was the Bills best defensive player last year after Williams and not that i think they can count on Merriman but after signing him and having Moats on other side where exactly does Miller fit? plus they still have Batten who the Bills seemed to be very high on

 

i think its going to be Gabbert...all signs pointed to Spiller last year and all signs are starting to point towards Gabbert this year

 

I think Miller is a heck of a Prospect and if The Bills take him they'll find a way to fit him in...Gailey hinted they may even look at moving him inside (next to Poz when he's re-signed I imagine), then have him Rush the Passer on 3rd Down...

 

That being said, I STILL think Miller is an awfully tough sell to Ralph who is on record wanting a Franchise QB...I think far too many Bills Fans are overlooking the Ralph factor in this pick...The Owner wants a Franchise QB...Period...He's on record...

 

So I'm guessing the conversation could go something like this...Nix is going to go to Ralph and say, "Miller is our guy because he can rush the Passer. He may be the next Derrick Thomas" And Ralph is going to say "That's what Modrak's Scouting Department said about Maybin a few years back. He was supposed to be the next Jason Taylor...What about the QB Buddy?" And Nix says something like..."Well, we really like Gabbert but we think it's too high for him here at #3, we need a Starter, and we need an OLB who can Rush the Passer." So Ralph says "We need a Franchise QB more though...We have Moats, Merriman, and we still have Maybin...You do what you think is best...But if Gabbert turns out to be the QB we so greatly need it's not going to go over too well and you know it...I think we should take the QB..." And Buddy takes the QB...

 

It's just a guess...But I can see it going down that way...We'll see though...IF the Bills take Miller it does tell me Nix is completely in charge and Ralph has definitely taken a backseat...

[stony]

Really? I'm not even going to respond to that comment.

 

Shawne Merriman last 4 years. 44 tackles, 4 sacks, 0 INT, 0 FF,

Arthur Moats last year - 33 tackles, 2.5 sacks, 0 INT, 1 FF

 

If Merriman was 100% healthy, do you think the Chargers would've let him go and would've signed in Buffalo? I don't think so. So if Merriman was 100% healthy, he STILL wouldn't be the best OLB on our team because he most likely wouldn't even BE on this team.

 

That's a stupid way of quantifying his production. It's like saying Quinn averaged 6 sacks over the past two season of football. We all know Merriman didn't play hardly any football over the past two seasons.

 

Also, if you think he's earned a starting spot unconditionally because of his 4 game resume, well, that's scary considering we might be drafting another OLB in the first few rounds.

[EldaBillsFan]

Moat can easily move on the inside...and kelsey moved back to DE

[VanCity]

I think that the poster stating that we can't have enough good players is right. The fact does remain that we are loaded up at the position, but talent and health is a question mark. Miller brings both. If Dareus falls to us though, he fills a position of greater need. Based on all assessments, his ceiling is not as high, but you know you are getting a beast regardless.

[Bangarang]

Moat can easily move on the inside...and kelsey moved back to DE

 

Chan started Moats off as an ILB and was absolutely terrible.

[NewEra]

Miller is not an ILB.

 

And Quinn is not an OLB. Urlacher wasn't an ILB. Rod Woodson wasn't a safety. He's a football player. Like the rest. Just a hunch, but if asked to play ILB, Miller would be one heck of an ILB. Given our current Hybrid scheme, I get the feeling that he would be playing both ILB (on rushing downs) and OLB on passing downs, mixing in some coverage. Some may say that if he's gonna play ILB, then he shouldn't be taken #3. Patrick Willis, Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher would be worth the #3 pick, not sure why Miller wouldn't be, if he has a chance to turn out like them. Of course, "if" he turns out like them, but the same applies to anyone taken #3. He's a versatile LB, exactly what this team needs. But to say he's "not" and ILB when he hasn't even been drafted yet, if off base in my book. He hasn't played ILB, truth, but that doesnt mean we can't put him there from time to time and he won't succeed. One of the reasons I do want us to draft him, is because I feel he has all the tools to succeed at ILB as well as OLB. Playing a hybrid scheme, it's nice to have guys that can play different positions. I think he can. Only time will tell though.

 

I would. Starting the last 4 games and getting 2 sacks, 1 FF in 4 of those games as a rookie is pretty good IMO. He's earned it.

 

 

 

Not at 3 (unless Dareus is there).

I too, think moats will be one of our starting OLBs, especially if we dont draft miller or Quinn. If we do draft one, it's gonna be "best man wins" between him and Merriman, or maybe someone else, if they light it up in training camp (hopefully we have one). The comment that irks me, is that moats deserves the starting spot because he "earned" it. He earned it because he played well in 4 games? Please. Let's see how they come in and play when the lockout is over, then lets decide who's "earned" it.

[EldaBillsFan]

And Quinn is not an OLB. Urlacher wasn't an ILB. Rod Woodson wasn't a safety. He's a football player. Like the rest. Just a hunch, but if asked to play ILB, Miller would be one heck of an ILB. Given our current Hybrid scheme, I get the feeling that he would be playing both ILB (on rushing downs) and OLB on passing downs, mixing in some coverage. Some may say that if he's gonna play ILB, then he shouldn't be taken #3. Patrick Willis, Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher would be worth the #3 pick, not sure why Miller wouldn't be, if he has a chance to turn out like them. Of course, "if" he turns out like them, but the same applies to anyone taken #3. He's a versatile LB, exactly what this team needs. But to say he's "not" and ILB when he hasn't even been drafted yet, if off base in my book. He hasn't played ILB, truth, but that doesnt mean we can't put him there from time to time and he won't succeed. One of the reasons I do want us to draft him, is because I feel he has all the tools to succeed at ILB as well as OLB. Playing a hybrid scheme, it's nice to have guys that can play different positions. I think he can. Only time will tell though.

 

exactly

[yungmack]

 

i think its going to be Gabbert...all signs pointed to Spiller last year and all signs are starting to point towards Gabbert this year

The reason that all signs pointed to Spiller last year was because Nix clearly stated what he was looking for, a "water spider" running back. This year he's been harping on defense, in particular getting a run-stuffer. How you conclude that means the Bills are going to draft Gabbert is beyond me.

[Kipers Hair]

Love the conjecture - but if we take a guy at 3 to move him to an unnatural position, it only substantiates the opinions many have with this organization. It would be like taking peterson with the idea to convert to a safety...at 15, OK, at 3 - no F-ing way. At 3, I would rather see them roll dice on Fairly to replace Stroud than Miller to move all over the place...one thing for sure, we will ruin his career.

[NewEra]

First off the Bills FO has repeatedly said Batten IS going to play inside, so he's not an OLB. The idea that you think Miller would be inside on rushing downs is ludicrous. A 240lb rushing specialist will play MLB on rushing downs? If we draft him you'll see it at some point, Miller is miserable against the run in traffic. There's a zero percent chance that is happening.

Because you've seen him play the run from the ILB position to make that statement? Playing the run from the joker slot and from the ILB spot are 2 different things. From the ILB spot he isn't lined up vs a LT off the snap. It allows you to flow to the ball rather than going head up with an OL. There will be plays where you go head up playing ILB, but you have more freedom in general. His speed can make a difference vs the run if he's slotted at ILB, and I'm fairley certain there will be times hes asked to man it. ILB are also needed to cover, and he's shown that he isn't a fish out of water when in coverage, IMO, it will eventually be ONE of his strengths.

[Bangarang]

The reason that all signs pointed to Spiller last year was because Nix clearly stated what he was looking for, a "water spider" running back. This year he's been harping on defense, in particular getting a run-stuffer. How you conclude that means the Bills are going to draft Gabbert is beyond me.

 

For all the talk about drafting defense, there's been just as much talk about drafting a QB. Since Newton is likely going #1, that leaves Gabbert. If Dareus is taken #2, that only leaves a few options that I think Nix will go with, Gabbert being one of them.

[NewEra]

I DON'T GIVE A SHT WHAT HE DID 5,6, OR 7 YEARS AGO. I just don't CARE. Great. What good is that going to do us NOW? Keep bringing up his past. Was he dominant? Yes. What's he done the last 2 years? NOTHING.

 

I never said he wasn't once dominant did I? He was, but I just really dont give a sht about what he did with the Chargers.

 

What's Merriman done NOW? Keep bringing up Merriman's number from 6 or 7 years ago cuz I don't care. All I care about is what they can do for us NOW and who is a better option for us NOW. NOW being the key word. Not 5 years ago. Not 6 or 7 years ago. NOW. Key Word: NOW. N-O-W. NOW.

 

Merriman ONCE had in this league. NO MORE. If Merriman can get 100% better and play like he did 6 years ago? Of course. BUT that's not the case NOW is he. Key word. NOW.

You have no idea what he is NOW, we haven't seen him NOW. I agree with the others, if he comes back at 75% of what he was, he's much better than Moats. Will he ever be 75% of what he was? No one knows. But IF he does, he will start. I don't think there's a question about that. You can't judge a player based on his play for the last 3-4 years when they can't play due to injuries. If he's still hurt or doesn't come back to form, moats will most definitely start. But if he does show he's healed up, there's most definitely a good chance he gets the nod. Not sure how what you don't get about that. You're speaking terms of black and white, when this entire discussion is a shade of grey.

[Belicheat]

That's hardly earning it for me. Moats is a liability against the run and in coverage. He's not good enough as a pass rusher yet to make up for his other deficiencies. Like I said, he's a solid prospect and could provide solid depth at LB. But in now way do I think he's earned a starting spot.

 

What's with the love fest over Moats? Granted he had two sacks etc. But did you see his run contain or lack there of? It was awful? Go back and watch tape on him; I want to se him do well more than anyone but there are a great deal of concerns around him and entire Lb core. I believe NFL network did a nice pc on bills lbs and their awareness and lines they took to make a tackle or go through a hole. It was pitiful. Moats is subject to this same criticism. If Buddy and chan see an upgrade then by all mean get after it. The problem with this team is the culture and veterans who have been a part of it may have to change to get over the hump. Like Poz even for instance, wanna love him but plays so little and tardish. But don't be a fool and discount or disregard what Merriman has done. How can you not be excited about the possibiity of him returning to form. Get off Moats' dick already