Great article

[IDBillzFan]

And good for you... does that mean everyone can do that? No.

So I'm the exception and not the rule? Most people can't change their job or reduce their spending? Who exactly got them into that position?

[DC Tom]

So after 25 years of service in your mind their pension should only be $35k. Wow, how very kind of you. If that is the case I guess we should reduce the size of their classes and make sure they don't pay for supplies out of their own pocket and hell give them a longer summer break.

 

Told you guys he didn't know the difference.

[birdog1960]

i have a tough time sympathizing with the folks in the article. the way i see it, the private sector has all but eliminated employer funded, traditional retirement plans and the government (in some states) has continued or even sweetened their already generous plans. it's not about appreciation of service. it's about inherent fairness. the benefits (and salaries, be they higher or lower) should be comparable in both sectors. very few workers in the private sector can retire at age 50 despite years of hard work and service and given life expectancy this is reasonable. it's unreasonable for public sector employees to expect and be given a better deal. add to this the fiscal crisis that most states face and the frustrations regarding this issue are understandable.

Edited April 19, 2011 by birdog1960

[Magox]

i have a tough time sympathizing with the folks in the article. the way i see it, the private sector has all but eliminated employer funded, traditional retirement plans and the government (in some states) has continued or even sweetened their already generous plans. it's not about appreciation of service. it's about inherent fairness. the benefits (and salaries, be they higher or lower) should be comparable in both sectors. very few workers in the private sector can retire at age 50 despite years of hard work and service and given life expectancy this is reasonable. it's unreasonable for public sector employees to expect and be given a better deal. add to this the fiscal crisis that most states face and the frustrations regarding this issue are understandable.

Birdog?

[Chef Jim]

Birdog?

 

That's what I thought but I don't really pay too close attention to some of these folks so I didn't say anything. I actually agreed with what he said.

[OCinBuffalo]

That's what I thought but I don't really pay too close attention to some of these folks so I didn't say anything. I actually agreed with what he said.

 

It's only "being compassionate" when we are talking arbitrarily jacking up government reimbursement and/or creating another giant government pyramid that returns -40% on investment.

Otherwise, and especially if it doesn't affect birdog personally, F everybody else.

 

Incidentally, teachers in more schools than not are also returning negative on investment.

Why are we talking about $$, when clearly most of these people aren't performing?

I would think we would be talking about whether to fire them way before we would be talking about what to pay them.

 

And, the performance record of teachers nationally is all the argument you need for removing the DOE. They are failing in their mission, it's time to try another approach.

For the usual idiots: I am not saying we need to do nothing(or that I hate kids and don't want them to be educated, or that education isn't massively important, or any other retarded assertion that comes out of your addled brains), I am saying the current approach does not work. We have given it plenty of money and have been extremely patient, and we have gotten crap results. The problems still exist, we need to solve them, and therefore, we need new solutions.

 

Or, are you for doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results?

Edited April 21, 2011 by OCinBuffalo

[pBills]

So I'm the exception and not the rule? Most people can't change their job or reduce their spending? Who exactly got them into that position?

 

 

Anyone can attempt to change their job. You make it sound like it's the easiest thing to do in this market. You don't like it... quit and put your resume in for a job with 300+ people.

 

It's only "being compassionate" when we are talking arbitrarily jacking up government reimbursement and/or creating another giant government pyramid that returns -40% on investment.

Otherwise, and especially if it doesn't affect birdog personally, F everybody else.

 

Incidentally, teachers in more schools than not are also returning negative on investment.

Why are we talking about $$, when clearly most of these people aren't performing?

I would think we would be talking about whether to fire them way before we would be talking about what to pay them.

 

And, the performance record of teachers nationally is all the argument you need for removing the DOE. They are failing in their mission, it's time to try another approach.

For the usual idiots: I am not saying we need to do nothing(or that I hate kids and don't want them to be educated, or that education isn't massively important, or any other retarded assertion that comes out of your addled brains), I am saying the current approach does not work. We have given it plenty of money and have been extremely patient, and we have gotten crap results. The problems still exist, we need to solve them, and therefore, we need new solutions.

 

Or, are you for doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results?

 

 

 

How are you judging their performance? How much of overall performance based on the student working/studying hard? How much is based on home life and parenting? Not saying all teachers are great, but if teachers give the means, after a while isn't it on the student with help from parents to push forward?

[Gary M]

Anyone can attempt to change their job. You make it sound like it's the easiest thing to do in this market. You don't like it... quit and put your resume in for a job with 300+ people.

 

 

 

 

 

How are you judging their performance? How much of overall performance based on the student working/studying hard? How much is based on home life and parenting? Not saying all teachers are great, but if teachers give the means, after a while isn't it on the student with help from parents to push forward?

 

So their inability to teach is because the kids don't want to learn? So now they are victims of the system?

[pBills]

So their inability to teach is because the kids don't want to learn? So now they are victims of the system?

 

 

Did I say that? One can only teach so far, after a while it is on the students willingness to learn and work hard. Simple fact.

[Gary M]

Did I say that? One can only teach so far, after a while it is on the students willingness to learn and work hard. Simple fact.

 

You hinted at it.

 

 

You never answered the question, why teachers should get a pension, while those of us in the private sector don't.

[Chef Jim]

Anyone can attempt to change their job. You make it sound like it's the easiest thing to do in this market. You don't like it... quit and put your resume in for a job with 300+ people.

 

 

And that's why so many people stick with a crap job because moving up and improving their career/lives is haaaarrrd. Waaaahhhh.

[pBills]

You hinted at it.

 

 

You never answered the question, why teachers should get a pension, while those of us in the private sector don't.

 

 

No, I never hinted at it. I simply stated it takes more than a teacher for kid to succeed. Obviously perfect scenario is that what I said... good teacher, students willingness to work hard, support system at home.

 

 

So to answer your question.. yes. Why not? For teachers that is their retirement package. Not having an opportunity to have a 401(k) or some other co-funded retirement program. Some states looked into that, however it would actually be more expensive do it.

 

Keep in mind that they do contribute to their own pensions, so they helping to support it themselves, not simply receiving it for free. Also, in some states teachers do not receive Social Security on top of their pensions. Federal Laws... the Government Pension Offset (GPO) and Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) cut down the Social Security benefit a teacher earned from previous jobs.

 

So keeping all of that in mind, plus the years of service... I have no problem with them receiving a pension.

 

And that's why so many people stick with a crap job because moving up and improving their career/lives is haaaarrrd. Waaaahhhh.

 

 

No moron.. to simply say "Hey you don't like your job, get a new one" is stupid at the present time.

[Gary M]

 

Some states looked into that, however it would actually be more expensive do it.

 

 

 

It would be more expensive because they would actually have to have the money to put in the 401k and not put it off to future generations.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Gary M

[pBills]

It would be more expensive because they would actually have to have the money to put in the 401k and not put it off to future generations.

 

 

It would be more expensive because normally with 401(k)'s the employer matches to a point.

 

 

 

I get so tired of hearing about how everything is screwing over future generations. Especially when it comes on the backs those who are educating those future generations.

[Rob's House]

I get so tired of hearing about how everything is screwing over future generations. Especially when it comes on the backs those who are educating those future generations.

I don't think anybody is trying to take away anything teachers currently receive, outside of some sweet pension deals in specific municipalities that have budget problems. It's just that a lot of us reject the idea that teachers for some unspecified reason are supposed to make executive pay for doing what is essentially a monkey's job (yes, a relative handful make a different in a child's life; out of apx 50 public school teachers I can probabyly count those that made an impact on one hand.)

 

Teaching, for many, is the equivalent of table waiting for people who went to college. A relatively easy job that anyone with a teaching cert can get. Don't really have any skills and are limited by a mediocre intellect, but want to make above median salary with a five day work week, great benefits, and more vacation than anyone with a full time job ever conceived of (and still be able to gain the sympathy of millions of morons everytime you decide to nail yourself to the cross)? Then become a teacher.

Edited April 21, 2011 by Rob's House

[pBills]

I don't think anybody is trying to take away anything teachers currently receive, outside of some sweet pension deals in specific municipalities that have budget problems. It's just that a lot of us reject the idea that teachers for some unspecified reason are supposed to make executive pay for doing what is essentially a monkey's job (yes, a relative handful make a different in a child's life; out of apx 50 public school teachers I can probabyly count those that made an impact on one hand.)

 

Teaching, for many, is the equivalent of table waiting for people who went to college. A relatively easy job that anyone with a teaching cert can get. Don't really have any skills and are limited by a mediocre intellect, but want to make above median salary with a five day work week, great benefits, and more vacation than anyone with a full time job ever conceived of (and still be able to gain the sympathy of millions of morons everytime you decide to nail yourself to the cross)? Then become a teacher.

 

 

 

I think it's laughable that anyone could call what they make executive pay. Maybe at the end of their 25 years they will be making upwards of $80k +. I think it's even worse that you would state their job is a "monkey's job"? So what do you do? What can we equate that too?

 

Since a teacher doesn't really need to have any skills, I guess the need for a Bachelors Degree / Masters Degree is not necessary right?

[Magox]

The problem with teachers, unions and their relationship with one another and the community is that there is hardly any accountability. The quality of teachers suck here in the U.S and the unions protect their suckiness, all while their pay and benefits have risen dramatically over the past decade at the expense of the taxpayer.

 

Here's a quick fact for you guys. U.S investment in education has risen exponentially over the past 15 years, yet our test scoring in math and science has dramatically dropped off in all the OECD nations.

 

So there needs to be more accountability and one of the downfalls of the Unions is that they deter this from happening.

[Rob's House]

I think it's laughable that anyone could call what they make executive pay. Maybe at the end of their 25 years they will be making upwards of $80k +. I think it's even worse that you would state their job is a "monkey's job"? So what do you do? What can we equate that too?

 

Since a teacher doesn't really need to have any skills, I guess the need for a Bachelors Degree / Masters Degree is not necessary right?

I didn't say they currently make executive pay, but it seems you think they deserve as much. I have yet to hear you explain why it is teachers (who as a whole have among the lowest SATs of any collective field of graduates) should start off right out of college at $50k+ and pull six figures after 20 yrs and get a 35 yr vacation at taxpayer expense after only 25 yrs of work.

 

And as far as what I do, I manually masturbate caged animals for artificial insemination. It's important to have a job that makes a difference.

[pBills]

The problem with teachers, unions and their relationship with one another and the community is that there is hardly any accountability. The quality of teachers suck here in the U.S and the unions protect their suckiness, all while their pay and benefits have risen dramatically over the past decade at the expense of the taxpayer.

 

Here's a quick fact for you guys. U.S investment in education has risen exponentially over the past 15 years, yet our test scoring in math and science has dramatically dropped off in all the OECD nations.

 

So there needs to be more accountability and one of the downfalls of the Unions is that they deter this from happening.

 

 

How is accountability completely placed at the feet of the teacher? Students work ethic and support at home are not included in this?

[Gary M]

It would be more expensive because normally with 401(k)'s the employer matches to a point.

 

 

 

I get so tired of hearing about how everything is screwing over future generations. Especially when it comes on the backs those who are educating those future generations.

 

You are really thick. It would be cheaper if that were true, because right now the teachers put in the smaller percentage, while the school districts put in the larger percentage, the true problem is while my employer uses todays cash to fund my 401k the schools are funding it from future income, so the only real cash they have in these plans is the money they collect fro the teachers. Do you not understand that? And yes that is pushing it into the future.

 

And the other problem is they are not teaching these kids well enough so they can't compete for the better jobs

Edited April 21, 2011 by Gary M