Alaska Darin Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 you know the money the SNCF (the french amtrak) makes with the high speed trains (lines that are making tons of money) help subsidize the local classic commuter lines ... And? That doesn't translate to the United States.
ieatcrayonz Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Just more smug, because "I'm taking a train, I'm special!" And I've never seen a smug person fly Southwest. I think Southwest's entire business model is designed to suppress any sense of ego. Exactly except I wouldn't fly Southwest because my Flear jet is more convenient. Anyway, the special train people are only trumped by the spandex mafia and their bikes. Geez Louise. Maybe we can have those dorks only be allowed to pedal on train tracks. That's when I would contribute mucho $$$$$$$ to a high speed rail program.
olivier in france Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 And? That doesn't translate to the United States. Who knows? Has anybody made any serious independant study on the NE corridor line?
LeviF Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 And I've never seen a smug person fly Southwest. I think Southwest's entire business model is designed to suppress any sense of ego. Has to be. I cringed as I bought my most recent Southwest ticket. I didn't want to be that guy flying the airline that has those horrible "Southwest Makes the Call" commercials
olivier in france Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Just more smug, because "I'm taking a train, I'm special!" that's where it gets very cultural... in Europe smugs take planes!
GG Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 you know the money the SNCF (the french amtrak) makes with the high speed trains (lines that are making tons of money) help subsidize the local classic commuter lines ... You sure about that?
DC Tom Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 you know the money the SNCF (the french amtrak) makes with the high speed trains (lines that are making tons of money) help subsidize the local classic commuter lines ... How profitable is the Paris to Marseille line? Because that's one of the longer high-speed rail lines in France (about 400 miles), and roughly equal to the shortest practical line in the US (Boston to DC). Never mind the fundamental economic differences between the countries...but if you're comparing the economics of an entire country's rail net to the hypothetical unconnected fragments of high-speed corridors in a geographically much larger country, you're probably getting the economics completely mixed up.
ieatcrayonz Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 How profitable is the Paris to Marseille line? Because that's one of the longer high-speed rail lines in France (about 400 miles), and roughly equal to the shortest practical line in the US (Boston to DC). Never mind the fundamental economic differences between the countries...but if you're comparing the economics of an entire country's rail net to the hypothetical unconnected fragments of high-speed corridors in a geographically much larger country, you're probably getting the economics completely mixed up. Plus the dorks.
Chef Jim Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 (edited) The thing with LA is that there is no real center so there's a good chance your final destination is not too far from the airport... I take it you have not spent a lot of time in LA. Edited October 25, 2011 by Chef Jim
olivier in france Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 You sure about that? oh yes!!! thanks god we have the TGVs ... it does not cover all the losses of the rest of the train network but without them it'd be catastrophic! I take it you have not spent a lot of time in LA. No and i don't plan to do! the only place in the entire USA i don't want to go ... ever!! How profitable is the Paris to Marseille line? Because that's one of the longer high-speed rail lines in France (about 400 miles), and roughly equal to the shortest practical line in the US (Boston to DC). Never mind the fundamental economic differences between the countries...but if you're comparing the economics of an entire country's rail net to the hypothetical unconnected fragments of high-speed corridors in a geographically much larger country, you're probably getting the economics completely mixed up. The paris to marseille line is profitable. Not the more profitable but very profitable. The giant money maker is the Paris-Lyon line (the first half of the paris marseille line), the first one built and one that fill dozens of trains everyday. I don't know if the new paris-strasbourg line makes any money. the Paris-Bordeaux and the other western lines (Le Mans, Tours, nantes... ) are good business. The London, Koln, Brussels lines are gettin better and better and are big gainers too. I have used a lot the Paris to Lyon and Paris to Valence lines when i lived in Paris and the trains are full most of the time.
GG Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 oh yes!!! thanks god we have the TGVs ... it does not cover all the losses of the rest of the train network but without them it'd be catastrophic! Of course it is Despite effective cost controls at all levels, EBITDA remains insufficient to cover essential on-going investments in service quality and development ..... SNCF Voyages reported a loss (€42 million at constant scope of consolidation and exchange rates), due in particular to an increase in track access charges paid to RFF (owner of the French railway network). Never mind that the P&L of the individual operating units is distorted by how SNCF accounts for shared operations & infrastructure. Said another way, the TGV is profitable if you exclude the tracks & train stations from its expenses.
ieatcrayonz Posted October 25, 2011 Posted October 25, 2011 Never mind that the P&L of the individual operating units is distorted by how SNCF accounts for shared operations & infrastructure. Said another way, the TGV is profitable if you exclude the tracks & train stations from its expenses. Well that's sort of lame. If you excluded all that stuff even Beerboy is profitable.
olivier in france Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) Of course it is Never mind that the P&L of the individual operating units is distorted by how SNCF accounts for shared operations & infrastructure. Said another way, the TGV is profitable if you exclude the tracks & train stations from its expenses. Not really the TGV is profitable including its tracks... But the SNCF is a public owned giant mess that has no clue how to manage the 90% of its trains that are not TGVs. the SNCF is using about 18 000 miles of tracks with only 1 200 miles of those tracks used by TGV Edited October 26, 2011 by olivier in france
GG Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Not really the TGV is profitable including its tracks... But the SNCF is a public owned giant mess that has no clue how to manage the 90% of its trains that are not TGVs. the SNCF is using about 18 000 miles of tracks with only 1 200 miles of those tracks used by TGV Of course TGV is profitable. If you ignore all the unprofitable items from its operations. You can't cherry pick TGV and say that it's profitable because if you shut down the "unprofitable" local operations, TGV would need to build up that infrastructure on its own, and guess what will happen? It will also become unprofitable, because rail travel cannot compete against autos, buses & planes. Only cargo rail can compete because it can move huge mass at a competitive price to trucking and air freight is too expensive.
olivier in france Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 Of course TGV is profitable. If you ignore all the unprofitable items from its operations. You can't cherry pick TGV and say that it's profitable because if you shut down the "unprofitable" local operations, TGV would need to build up that infrastructure on its own, and guess what will happen? It will also become unprofitable, because rail travel cannot compete against autos, buses & planes. Only cargo rail can compete because it can move huge mass at a competitive price to trucking and air freight is too expensive. i don't ignore them! the local operations are on different tracks using different trains they are just run by the same company that's all!
ieatcrayonz Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 i don't ignore them! the local operations are on different tracks using different trains they are just run by the same company that's all! They should have a promotion where they do the Tour de France on the high speed rail with the trains running. It would be a ratings bonanza, promote the rail line and teach the spandex mafia a lesson they will not soon forget.
GG Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 i don't ignore them! the local operations are on different tracks using different trains they are just run by the same company that's all! The track is different once you leave the station, but you need the railway's rights of way to lay that second set of tracks and you pull the trains into the same train station as the commuter lines. You can't just cherry pick TGV's long distance route and say it's profitable by ignoring other unprofitable parts of running a railroad.
DC Tom Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The track is different once you leave the station, but you need the railway's rights of way to lay that second set of tracks and you pull the trains into the same train station as the commuter lines. You can't just cherry pick TGV's long distance route and say it's profitable by ignoring other unprofitable parts of running a railroad. I believe that GAAP in France, as long as you footnote it with "It's America's fault."
olivier in france Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 The track is different once you leave the station, but you need the railway's rights of way to lay that second set of tracks and you pull the trains into the same train station as the commuter lines. You can't just cherry pick TGV's long distance route and say it's profitable by ignoring other unprofitable parts of running a railroad. what exactly do i ignore when i say TGV lines are profitable including the tracks? Since TGV has been launched they have built maybe 5 or 6 special TGV stations while using other stations that are sometimes built for 2 centuries ... And building those stations are really nothing compared to the cost of the tracks... They should have a promotion where they do the Tour de France on the high speed rail with the trains running. It would be a ratings bonanza, promote the rail line and teach the spandex mafia a lesson they will not soon forget. with the Tour de France in July in the middle of the vacations of millions of frenchmen, they don't really need to make promotions to fill TGVs at that time of the year! I believe that GAAP in France, as long as you footnote it with "It's America's fault." Not only GAAPs! It's the first sentence they learn in all french schools of journalism and politics!
GG Posted October 26, 2011 Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) what exactly do i ignore when i say TGV lines are profitable including the tracks? Since TGV has been launched they have built maybe 5 or 6 special TGV stations while using other stations that are sometimes built for 2 centuries ... And building those stations are really nothing compared to the cost of the tracks... You're ignoring the corporate overhead and other shared costs of the entire railroad operation to get to the profitability of TGV. Said another way, if TGV was a totally new railroad company that didn't get to use any of SNCF's assets, it would not be profitable because the fixed cost infrastructure of a railroad is staggering. The only reason TGV is "profitable" is due to accounting treatments, not because it would make money on its own. Edited October 26, 2011 by GG
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