Sooo what's the deal with this?

[blzrul]

Is there more to this story than meets the eye?

 

Equipment was abandoned by the Army, a group of reservists took it in order to make deliveries of fuel to their compatriots, and they're in jail?

 

There's got to be more to it than the story - I wonder about the coverup etc. I should say I HOPE there's more to it, because on the surface it appears that these folks worked to find a way to complete their mission despite lacking the tools (transportation) they needed.

 

Of course the armed services don't exactly encourage creativity and initiative, but still.....

[DC Tom]

DeWine's request came a week after U.S. soldiers complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in Kuwait that they have to scrounge in landfills for scrap metal and discarded bullet-resistant glass to provide armor for their vehicles.

 

 

I like the way they throw the Rumsfeld mention in, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

 

As for the story itself...that can't be all of it. "Abandon" has got to be an inaccurate description for the vehicles, if they're being prosecuted for their actions...like maybe they were "abandon" into some motor pool or something.

[_BiB_]

Is there more to this story than meets the eye?

 

Equipment was abandoned by the Army, a group of reservists took it in order to make deliveries of fuel to their compatriots, and they're in jail?

 

There's got to be more to it than the story - I wonder about the coverup etc.  I should say I HOPE there's more to it, because on the surface it appears that these folks worked to find a way to complete their mission despite lacking the tools (transportation) they needed.

 

Of course the armed services don't exactly encourage creativity and initiative, but still.....

161653[/snapback]

 

Of course the armed services don't exactly encourage creativity and initiative, but still.....

 

That's a pretty cheap shot. What would you know about it? We have the only military in the world that encourages widespread creativity and initiative. A 21 year old E-5 squad leader in the US infantry is often entrusted with more latitude and responsibility than many officers in other Armies.

 

In answer to your question, yes-I'm pretty sure that there is more to the story. One, serviceable equipment is not likely to be abandoned. Two, there used to be an old tradition of "midnight requisition". Sneak into someone else's motor pool and steal parts. It's not considered fun and fair play anymore. Three, anything here is pure speculation without a read on the entire situation-and looks on the surface like another semi-subtle anti-establishment spin.

[_BiB_]

True Story.

 

We were being inspected once, back in the mid 70s. This was a period where the inspections were pretty chicken sh--. You could flunk for any number of minor violations, even though the tracks were battle worthy.

 

We took two of our Sheridans (out of six) and made them as perfect as we could.

 

We took one over the inspection line, and when it came off, painted over the identification numbers and repainted it with one of the tracks we knew wouldn't make it.

 

We alternated the vehicles this way (the full inspection for each vehicle took a few hours).

 

We passed, with flying colors by the way, 6 out of 6 tracks.

[DC Tom]

Of course the armed services don't exactly encourage creativity and initiative, but still.....

That's a pretty cheap shot. What would you know about it? We have the only military in the world that encourages widespread creativity and initiative. A 21 year old E-5 squad leader in the US infantry is often entrusted with more latitude and responsibility than many officers in other Armies.

161685[/snapback]

 

Damn, I missed that in her post.

 

Debbie, my wife's best friend's son is an E-4 in the Air Force. He used to be an E-3 (obviously)...but was bumped a rank (in addition to lots of other praise) when he, on his own initiative, identified and fixed a potentially fatal flaw in the ejector seat on the F-15.

 

And that's just one example. Overall...the US military is quite possibly the best trained and most effective man-for-man the world's ever seen. A quality of every effective and well-trained army in history is the encouragement of creativity and initiative in junior officers and NCOs. Ergo...the US military strongly encourages creativity and initiative. As I recall from performance reviews Ive seen, it's a very big part of the review.

 

And if you're still not convinced...soldiers are scrounging for armor in Iraq. If that doesn't show creativity and initiative, I don't know what does.

[blzrul]

That's a pretty cheap shot. What would you know about it? We have the only military in the world that encourages widespread creativity and initiative. A 21 year old E-5 squad leader in the US infantry is often entrusted with more latitude and responsibility than many officers in other Armies.

 

In answer to your question, yes-I'm pretty sure that there is more to the story. One, serviceable equipment is not likely to be abandoned. Two, there used to be an old tradition of "midnight requisition". Sneak into someone else's motor pool and steal parts. It's not considered fun and fair play anymore. Three, anything here is pure speculation without a read on the entire situation-and looks on the surface like another semi-subtle anti-establishment spin.

161685[/snapback]

Then all that stuff during boot camp to condition people to follow orders unconditionally and without question encourages creativity and initiative? Please. You can't be a team player if you're questioning the status quo and looking for better ways to do things.

[blzrul]

That's a pretty cheap shot. What would you know about it? We have the only military in the world that encourages widespread creativity and initiative. A 21 year old E-5 squad leader in the US infantry is often entrusted with more latitude and responsibility than many officers in other Armies.

161685[/snapback]

 

Damn, I missed that in her post.

 

Debbie, my wife's best friend's son is an E-4 in the Air Force. He used to be an E-3 (obviously)...but was bumped a rank (in addition to lots of other praise) when he, on his own initiative, identified and fixed a potentially fatal flaw in the ejector seat on the F-15.

 

And that's just one example. Overall...the US military is quite possibly the best trained and most effective man-for-man the world's ever seen. A quality of every effective and well-trained army in history is the encouragement of creativity and initiative in junior officers and NCOs. Ergo...the US military strongly encourages creativity and initiative. As I recall from performance reviews Ive seen, it's a very big part of the review.

 

And if you're still not convinced...soldiers are scrounging for armor in Iraq. If that doesn't show creativity and initiative, I don't know what does.

161706[/snapback]

I'm not talking about THAT. My cousin, a career Marine, was very creative and invented some tools needed to do a better job repairing aviation equipment (which the Marines promptly tried to take away and productize). I'm talking about this situation specifically where people apparently saw a need, saw a solution, used it and are paying the price - pragmatically knowing that they probably weren't supposed to but doing it anyway TO HELP THEIR COMRADES.

 

They exercised their judgement and are paying the price.

 

And so it goes, that if you're sitting around and you think of a better way to kill more people with fewer casualties to your team, or you invent a tool, or whatever - that creativity that's ok, but in the field you tow the line or else. By the book.

 

The situations are a little different.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

Debbie, my wife's best friend's son is an E-4 in the Air Force.  He used to be an E-3 (obviously)...but was bumped a rank (in addition to lots of other praise) when he, on his own initiative, identified and fixed a potentially fatal flaw in the ejector seat on the F-15.

 

And that's just one example.  Overall...the US military is quite possibly the best trained and most effective man-for-man the world's ever seen.  A quality of every effective and well-trained army in history is the encouragement of creativity and initiative in junior officers and NCOs.  Ergo...the US military strongly encourages creativity and initiative.  As I recall from performance reviews Ive seen, it's a very big part of the review.

 

And if you're still not convinced...soldiers are scrounging for armor in Iraq.  If that doesn't show creativity and initiative, I don't know what does. 

161706[/snapback]

 

NOBODY questions the best-trained part, or even the effectiveness. What is glaring is the TOTAL lack of truthfulness and forthrightness you WANT from top commanders and high leadership. For years now, there has been a pogram to create this 'do as I say, not as I did' attitude.

 

Look at what is happening...

 

Treatment of Guantanamo suspects, varying widely from supposed torture to detainment without formal charges for MONTHS and MONTHS, and yet...

The Pentagon finds it necessary to pick and choose who they punish and in what way, punishing soldiers for doing their damn JOB in an unstable war zone, making THEM out to be criminals.

 

They created stop-loss, they ignore the armor problem, deflecting it to the 'Army' as McCain noted; they punish people for every little thing, they do everything in their power to create new articles that take away the last vestiges of actual ENJOYMENT of the military. I haven't even STARTED on the shoddy VA system.

 

My father was right... things have changed so much since he was in, that you can't trust the government anymore. You can't be a man anymore... our military is being emasculated, and of course we are helpless. It is very frustrating!!

[Alaska Darin]

Then all that stuff during boot camp to condition people to follow orders unconditionally and without question encourages creativity and initiative?  Please. You can't be a team player if you're questioning the status quo and looking for better ways to do things.

161976[/snapback]

When did you go through boot camp? How long did you serve? What rank did you attain? See any time in a zone?

 

Oh that's right, you didn't. Instead you're going to give your expert opinion from afar, because you've slept with someone who has or have talked to a relative. That's almost the same.

 

Do us a favor, STFU now before you truly embarrass yourself. AGAIN.

[_BiB_]

Then all that stuff during boot camp to condition people to follow orders unconditionally and without question encourages creativity and initiative?  Please. You can't be a team player if you're questioning the status quo and looking for better ways to do things.

161976[/snapback]

 

You know so little of some things that it absolutely amazes me sometimes. Either that, or you are pulling a typical political sham and taking 3% of a situation and making that the whole. That might work on the campus where folks have the luxury of changing the world, but except for rare instances it's quick death in combat. No one is taught not to think. They ARE taught that they are part of a team and are expected to carry out their role when directed to do so.

 

My analogy would be having a football team made up of players who are expected to always have good ideas of their own no matter how the play was practiced. The quarterback expects a guy to go left, but he questions the status quo and feels the better way to do things is go right. Loss of 6 on the play. You would have a military manned by blzruls and Ice's.

 

Better ideas are almost constantly discussed and assimilated when the conditions aren't as intense. I've been on both ends. When I was a young soldier and I figured out a new way to do something, and it made sense, my leadership most often incorporated it. Later, when I led soldiers I very often integrated their ideas into what we were doing.

 

Don't confuse obedience with discipline-although for you that's probably an easy thing to do.

[DC Tom]

Then all that stuff during boot camp to condition people to follow orders unconditionally and without question encourages creativity and initiative?  Please. You can't be a team player if you're questioning the status quo and looking for better ways to do things.

161976[/snapback]

 

No...but that's not what boot camp's designed for. Boot camp doesn't churn out robots. What it DOES do is: instill the realization that success in the military is based on teamwork (those "Army of One" commercials are the worst marketing campaign EVER, in my opinion.), instill the esprit de corps that aids in teamwork and motivates soldiers (soldiers don't fight for high-minded ideals, they fight because they belong to something and don't want to let down the guy next to them), and break the recruits' preconceived notions of what they can and cannot accomplish. Encouraging boots to "follow orders unconditionally and without question" is a means to an end of all three of those. In the field...that's not always the case: in a combat situation, good soldiers will question bad orders and even choose to ignore obviously dangerous ones. Conversely, good officers will not give orders to be followed without question and unconditionally, as they know the men under them are capable professionals that don't require it. And even when they do...orders don't mean inflexible, unwavering, slavish rote repetition of precisely what an officer says. And order may very well be something as simple and to-the-point as "Clear that house", leaving those who execute the order a wide latitude for exercising their initiative and creativity in how they do it.

 

The problem you seem to have with it is that you equate "creativity" and "initiative" with "questioning the status quo". That's not necessarily true. It's particularly not true if you're in a results- rather than process-oriented field...like a combat soldier would be. As opposed to, say, defense procurement, where you don't see much initiative and creativity simply because it's all about process.

[_BiB_]

I'm talking about this situation specifically

 

I already know I shouldn't have bit-because you are prodding the bear-but I have to quote you here.

 

You have NO IDEA WHAT THIS SITUATION IS!

 

You have this articles partial information and spin. Anyone who does jail time in the military has done something pretty damn wrong. It's VERY unusual, unless it's akin to a civil crime like grand theft, rape, murder, drugs, etc.. I think it's very, very unlikely that this is the entire and accurate portrayal.

[blzrul]

 

You have NO IDEA WHAT THIS SITUATION IS!

 

162032[/snapback]

and neither do you,

[DC Tom]

and neither do you,

162175[/snapback]

 

And he's not passing any judgement on it, either. Just questioning the reporting of it...which is precisely what you did, before you turned it into a bizzare "US Army manufactured killing automatons" rant.

[VABills]

I don't know the situation, but I can speak to the mindset of probably the most disciplined group of military men. The Marine Corps when instilling discipline, also demands one tries things and gets creative. Those that do well are rewarded. Those that try and don't kill anyone is left alone. If you !@#$ up too bad, they toss you.

 

I know from personal experience, I was a 20 year old corporal, with a 5 million dollar operating budget for my group, because I showed more initiative and ability to just get it done.

[_BiB_]

and neither do you,

162175[/snapback]

 

My dog's bigger than your dog.

My dog's bigger than yours.

My dog's bigger 'cause he eats Kennel Ration,

My dog's bigger than yours.

 

Debbie, I like ya, you know I do, and believe it or not I think about you now and then hoping you're doing OK- but this is not your subject. Who are you going to convince besides everyone who already agrees with you? Take it to the politics of Seattle. You have found a true home there, it sure ain't Texas, is it? I'm sure you get plenty of reinforcement there.

[Terry Tate]

Then all that stuff during boot camp to condition people to follow orders unconditionally and without question encourages creativity and initiative?  Please. You can't be a team player if you're questioning the status quo and looking for better ways to do things.

161976[/snapback]

I think the common negative misperceptions of military training are difficult to understand without experiencing it yourself.

 

Often times a particular order is given that requires a series of tasks be completed for each team member, but the team is graded on how well they do as a complete unit. The tasks are designed such that all of them cannot be successfully obtained by all members of the team if they attempt to complete the tasks individually. You are not given this information when the tasks are assigned. Team members are forced to use their initiative and be creative in solving how the unit grades out successfully. The ones that are the most creative in devising a successful solution and motivating others to said solution become your unit leaders.

 

It's been a very successful method for fostering creativity, initiative, identifying leaders, and creating bonds and trusts within a team while allowing individual strengths to be highlighted and individual weaknesses to be overcome.

 

I cannot think of a better method of beginning to make young adult men and women from teenage boys and girls in a short period of time.

[blzrul]

I think the common negative misperceptions of military training are difficult to understand without experiencing it yourself.

 

Often times a particular order is given that requires a series of tasks be completed for each team member, but the team is graded on how well they do as a complete unit. The tasks are designed such that all of them cannot be successfully obtained by all members of the team if they attempt to complete the tasks individually. You are not given this information when the tasks are assigned. Team members are forced to use their initiative and be creative in solving how the unit grades out successfully. The ones that are the most creative in devising a successful solution and motivating others to said solution become your unit leaders.

 

It's been a very successful method for fostering creativity, initiative, identifying leaders, and creating bonds and trusts within a team while allowing individual strengths to be highlighted and individual weaknesses to be overcome.

 

I cannot think of a better method of beginning to make young adult men and women from teenage boys and girls in a short period of time.

162440[/snapback]

I didn't say it was bad.

 

As a first responder for 8 years we functioned much like a military. We drilled constantly both physically and in a classroom environment, because in emergency situations we needed to be able to respond immediately and dispassionately with as little conscious thought processing as possible - as much as we could we needed to act by reflex.

 

We had roles, responsibilities, processes and a chain of command. If one link was weak or broken, the whole chain collapsed.

 

So for example when a driver or pump operator decided to "innovate", or do something he thought was best but outside of his role as driver or pump operator, he let the team down. His action may have had good consequences but that didn't matter. He was disciplined. His creativity and innovation was NOT encouraged and NOT rewarded.

 

We saved our innovation and creation for a couple of situations: pre-planning and training (for disasters etc) and for the line officers who supplied the incident direction and strategy on the scene. Again it was all done within certain guidelines and processes.

 

As an officer I had a specfic function and control, and chain of command. If my team was taking search and rescue, that's what we did. We didn't stop to ventilate even if we saw a good opportunity or need because that was assigned to another team.

 

So - I wasn't slamming any military institute in my comment about creativity and innovation. We didn't blanket encourage it, and they don't either. There's a time, and a place, and the field is NOT generally the place for it unless the situation is a "situation".

[Berg]

NOBODY questions the best-trained part, or even the effectiveness. What is glaring is the TOTAL lack of truthfulness and forthrightness you WANT from top commanders and high leadership. For years now, there has been a pogram to create this 'do as I say, not as I did' attitude.

 

Look at what is happening...

 

Treatment of Guantanamo suspects, varying widely from supposed torture to detainment without formal charges for MONTHS and MONTHS, and yet...

The Pentagon finds it necessary to pick and choose who they punish and in what way, punishing soldiers for doing their damn JOB in an unstable war zone, making THEM out to be criminals.

 

They created stop-loss, they ignore the armor problem, deflecting it to the 'Army' as McCain noted; they punish people for every little thing, they do everything in their power to create new articles that take away the last vestiges of actual ENJOYMENT of the military. I haven't even STARTED on the shoddy VA system.

 

My father was right... things have changed so much since he was in, that you can't trust the government anymore. You can't be a man anymore... our military is being emasculated, and of course we are helpless. It is very frustrating!!

161989[/snapback]

 

Stop loss has been around for a long time. It was not "created" by any of the current leadership.

[blzrul]

My dog's bigger than your dog.

My dog's bigger than yours.

My dog's bigger 'cause he eats Kennel Ration,

My dog's bigger than yours.

 

Debbie, I like ya, you know I do, and believe it or not I think about you now and then hoping you're doing OK- but this is not your subject. Who are you going to convince besides everyone who already agrees with you? Take it to the politics of Seattle. You have found a true home there, it sure ain't Texas, is it? I'm sure you get plenty of reinforcement there.

162244[/snapback]

I know more about it than you think I do. And, I'm not trying to convince anyone.

 

That is the problem with you guys, you want to drown out all points of view that conflict with your own.

 

I stand by my comment within the context it was meant. If you disagree, that's fine. But I spent enough years in a paramilitary organization and came across enough mavericks to understand how dangerous they can be and therefore why they are discouraged.

 

Don't be so quick to assume I'm trying to be insulting. When I mean to insult, you'll know it.