Putting Together a 3-4 Defense

[3rdand12]

Thanks for the help. I guess the Ryan's are the definitive 3/4 over the years?

[PDaDdy]

OK...maybe I haven't looked at all the posts in here...

 

 

I would take either one of these players

 

To be honest I would be fine with either Quinn or Miller. I prefer Quinn as he has the size and I think might have more upside due to that size. Of course risk comes along with it as Quinn didn't play his sophomore year. Miller too comes with some risk as an article on nfl.com asks whether Miller is the right fit for us. As every other expert and scout ponders, is his size an issue? Will we be able to keep him clean to allow his natural gifts to succeed.

 

Miller is probably the safer pick but Quinn could be one of those beastly guys that can get after the QB and hold up better in the run game due to his size.

Edited April 15, 2011 by PDaDdy

[3rdand12]

Miller is putting on weight to make a point and i hear he is up to 250. smoked the combine at 247 i think

[K-9]

Thanks for the help. I guess the Ryan's are the definitive 3/4 over the years?

 

Oh, I don't know if I'd say that about the Ryans. The dad never ran the 34 as a DC or HC. He was a 43 guy. But there is no doubt that both sons copy their dads pressure schemes. Both of them use the 46 defensive schemes extensively. As I mentioned earlier, they love to bring that extra safety up, put their CBs on an island, and send pressure from the edges. It' a high risk, high reward pressure scheme.

 

If I had to pick the definitive 34 defenses over the years, I'd start with Wade Philips who, along with HIS dad Bum, really refined the front. I'd add the Steelers and Patriots as well. Of course there have been many innovators like Capers and LeBeau who put their own stamps on a 34 front as well.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[3rdand12]

Oh thats right now i recall, Bum Philips! I knew it was a father/son thing. I am getting senile.

But how far away are we from a legitimate 3-4? Player wise, i mean. I worry about depth, much less having effective starters

Ty K-9

[K-9]

Oh thats right now i recall, Bum Philips! I knew it was a father/son thing. I am getting senile.

But how far away are we from a legitimate 3-4? Player wise, i mean. I worry about depth, much less having effective starters

Ty K-9

 

Well, that's the million dollar question. IMO, based SOLELY on how we ended last season, I'd say we are at least 1 good DE and 4 LBs away from having a legitimate 34 front. Edwards was starting to come around before he got hurt so I think he can be adequate. Carrington needs to keep showing the development he showed in the last part of the season as well. But we need a dominant DE from somewhere. We're OK at the NT. As for the LBs, not one of them is a quality starter in the NFL if you ask me. Moats showed a little as a pass rusher but he is a huge liability in the run game at this point. I have little use for any of the other LBs as the 34 is reliant on good LBs to make it work and provide the kind of flexibility you need scheme wise to be effective. If it sounds like I don't like our LBs well, I don't. They were beyond bad last season. In every aspect of LB play.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I've posted this link many times, and still consider it to be the best overall explanation of how defenses in the NFl work. It goes pretty in depth, discussing the various defensive philosophies, and what's required, etc...

 

http://subscribers.f...el_idpguide.php

 

So with that said, here are my thoughts.

- I don't think we really have a need for a 5-technique. We drafted Alex Carrington last year, and have Dwan Edwards. Maybe we draft another for depth, but to be honest, I think we're fine.

 

Great OP and great follow - thanks.

 

Good stuff

 

One comment: we have Carrington, Edwards and ?????? behind them?

I like Edwards. A guy with a cadaver bone in his neck, needs a quality backup.

 

Heck, in todays NFL, any player needs a quality backup. Depth is an issue.

[Defend Greece]

With the draft coming up, I decided to do a bit of research as to how teams—both successful and unsuccessful—put together their 3-4 defense. The goal here being to assess how Buffalo should proceed in putting together the components for an effective 3-4 defense this coming season. For the 2011 season (assuming there is one…ugh), 14 teams will operate from a 3-4 alignment at least part of the time. Those teams are: Buffalo, New England, Miami, NY Jets, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Houston, Kansas City, San Diego, Arizona, San Francisco, Green Bay, Washington, and Dallas.

 

To begin with, I started by looking at the defensive performance of each team for the 2010 season, which I’ve outlined below. Please note that I ranked each team according to yards-per-play for total defense, yards-per-rush allowed for run defense, and yards-per-attempt allowed for pass defense; done so because these numbers are typically the most reflective of the overall performance of the team’s defense, as there tends to be very little skewing of the figures to do play call imbalance, game situations, etc. Please also note that I excluded Houston from the analysis, since they did not run the 3-4 in 2010 (which is also the reason that team s like Denver and Cleveland were not included, since they’re switching to a 4-3 for 2011).

 

Team-----------Overall D (YPP)------------Pass D (YPA) -----------Run D (YPA)

Pittsburgh-------------1-----------------------1-----------------------1

San Diego--------------2-----------------------3-----------------------4

NYJ--------------------3-----------------------5-T---------------------3

Miami------------------4-----------------------19-T--------------------7

Baltimore--------------6-----------------------2-----------------------5

San Francisco----------8-----------------------23-T--------------------6

Green Bay--------------9-----------------------5-T---------------------18

Kansas City-----------12-----------------------5-T---------------------14

Buffalo---------------20-----------------------14----------------------32

Arizona---------------23-----------------------25-T--------------------30

New England-----------26-----------------------19-T--------------------11

Dallas----------------28-----------------------29----------------------12

Washington------------30-----------------------28----------------------26

 

In looking at the above, I deem it safe to say that there is clearly a cutoff between the teams that run a 3-4 effectively, and the teams that do not, with Kansas City being the final of the 8 teams to make the “cut”, and Buffalo being the first of the 5 that do not. This is where I started to get into the details a bit more. Let’s take a look at the teams that make the cut, their starters at what I call the “key positions” (both 5-tech DEs, NT, and both OLBs), the rounds in which those players were drafted, and which teams acquired their starters via the draft vs. via free agency.

 

Team-------DE------------------NT------------------DE-----------------OLB------------------OLB

Pit--Keisel (7-FA)----C. Hampton (1)----------E. Hood (1)-------L. Woodley (2)------J. Harrison (UDFA-FA)

SD----Castillo (1)------A. Garay (6-FA)--J. Cesaire (UDFA)-----A. Applewhite (UDFA)--S. Phillips (4)

NYJ---S. Ellis (1)-------S. Pouha (3)------M. Devito (UDFA-FA)--C. Pace (1-FA)------B. Thomas (1-FA)

Mia--K. Langford (3)------P. Soliai (4)-----R. Starks (3-FA)----C. Wake (UDFA-FA)------K. Misi (2)

Bal-----H. Ngata (1)----K. Gregg (6-FA)----C. Redding (2-FA)-------T. Suggs (1)-------J. Johnson (2)

SF----J. Smith (1-FA)---I. Sopoaga (4)------A. Franklin (5-FA)---P. Harylson (4)------M. Lawson (1)

GB--C. Jenkins (UDFA)-----B. Raji (1)-------R. Pickett (1-FA)-----C. Matthews (1)-----F. Zombo (UDFA)

KC--G. Dorsey (1)------R. Edwards (3-FA)----S. Smith (5-FA)----M. Vrabel (UDFA-FA)-------T. Hali (1)

 

So what can we learn from this data set? A few things in my opinion.

 

GIMME FIVE!

 

My numbers-based claim: the best run stopping teams focus on the 5-technique position.

 

Of the 13 teams examined, 6 finished in the top 7 run defenses in the league. Of those teams (Pit, SD, NYJ, Mia, Bal, and SF), all but 1 (Miami) started a first round pick at the 5-technique spot. A quick comparison shows that the 5 aforementioned teams that did not make the cut had a total of 2 first round picks starting at 5-technique between them.

 

Additionally, you’ll notice that only one of these players—San Francisco’s Justin Smith—was obtained via free agency; the rest were drafted. Interestingly enough, however, is the fact that—in each of the cases in which the team spent a first-round pick on a 5-technique—the player manning the same position on the other side of the line was acquired via free agency.

 

FOLLOW YOUR NOSE?

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 teams apparently do not spend high draft picks on nose tackles.

 

Only 3 of the 13 teams on the list started first round picks at NT, while 8 of the remaining 10 started players drafted in the fourth round or later. Of the 8 teams that made the cut, only 2 started first round nose tackles. There also appears to be no correlation between a high draft pick spent at NT and ability to defend the run, as Pittsburgh (with former first rounder Casey Hampton manning the nose) finished #1 in run D, but Green Bay (with former top 10 pick B.J. Raji holding down the position) finished 18th.

 

FEELING A RUSH…

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 pass defenses have at least one dominant pass rusher.

 

This is going to sound weird, but 6 of the 13 teams listed finished in the top 5 in the league in pass defense (because there was a 3-way tie for fifth). Of those 6 teams, only 1 managed to do so without starting an OLB that amassed 10 or more sacks during the course of the season. That team was the Jets, who'se leading pass rusher was Bryan Thomas (6 sacks). This shouldn’t be terribly surprising, considering that they boast what is widely considered the best CB tandem in the NFL in Darrelle Revis and Antonio Cromartie.

 

Looking at the other 5 teams, however, the importance of having a dominant pass rusher at OLB is apparent. Pittsburgh, who finished first in the NFL in pass defense, was the only team of the 5 with 2 different OLBs that amassed 10 or more sacks. The others all had at least one. In fact, of the other 7 teams on the list, only 2 had OLBs that hit the mark: Dallas’ DeMarcus Ware and Miami’s Cameron Wake. The next closest player was Washington’s Brian Orakpo, who had 8.5 sacks.

 

CONCLUSIONS

 

So what would I like to see Buffalo do? Let’s start with the obvious:

 

1. Draft a 5-technique player. Does it have to be a first-round pick? Not necessarily in my opinion, but I think it needs to be a first round talent. The good news is that Buffalo is in the position to do that this year. If it’s at No. 3 overall, it’s likely a choice between Cam Jordan, Nick Fairley, and J.J. Watt (assuming Marcel Dareus is gone at that point). However, this draft is as deep in 5-technique players as any in recent memory, so waiting until No. 34 might be an okay strategy, as long as the team understands that they may need to get a bit lucky to get the guy they really want at that spot. Prospects at that point would include Oregon State’s Steven Paea, UNC’s Marvin Austin, USC’s Jurrell Casey, Miami’s Allen Bailey, and Iowa’s Christian Ballard.

 

2. Don’t jump the gun on a nose tackle. We all watched this team last year; can anyone tell me that they don’t think Kyle Williams can handle the NT position provided he’s afforded better players flanking him at the DE spots? I sure do. I also think it’s a bit too early to give up on Torell Troup. There are options available for this team later in the draft, including players like Hampton’s Kenrick Ellis (2-3), Temple’s Elisha Joseph (3-4), Southern Mississippi’s Anthony Gray (4), and board-favorite Blaine “The Incredible Hulk” Sumner from the Colorado School of Mines (5-7).

 

3. Identify your pass rusher. I know some of you are comfortable with Arthur Moats being the team’s most effective pass rusher, but I’m not. At least not yet. This team needs a player that other teams have to game plan against; somebody that forces opponents to keep a RB in the backfield for pass protection. The No. 3 pick is probably the team’s best chance to get that guy, considering that the draft is relatively top-heavy when it comes to pass rushers. I count 5 guys that I’m comfortable saying can play the 3-4 OLB role: Von Miller, Ryan Kerrigan, Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, and Akeem Ayers. None of them are likely to make it past the end of the first round. There are other conversion candidates like Robert Quinn—who clearly won’t be available at the No. 34 pick—and Brooks Reed, whose productivity never really matched his physical ability at Arizona. If the team decides to go elsewhere in the first round, they could look to Texas’ Sam Acho or Fresno State’s Chris Carter in the second or third round.

 

That’s all I’ve got for now, I hope this has been worth the read for you, and I welcome any feedback, comments, musings, criticisms, or random statements that have nothing to do with this post.

 

- Bandit

Phenomenal post, good research

I think we have done a good in two years, the only thing I hope changes is Troup steps up and grabs the nt job and Kyle and dareus line up the outside.

I don't think we have the best defense but as long as everyone is healthy, I think all 3 lines of the d are solid

 

Again good job!

[bowery4]

Way to dig up the old post lol, we will get to see the Von Miller part of this argument this week! I hope our Oline is ready.

[Defend Greece]

Way to dig up the old post lol, we will get to see the Von Miller part of this argument this week! I hope our Oline is ready.

Got to keep the good ones alive

[TPS]

Got to keep the good ones alive

I'm surprised it wasn't brought back after the draft, since the assumption was Dareus would be gone. Not only do we have the 5 technique, but if Merriman is healthy, we have all 3 elements OP mentioned for a successful 3-4.

Excellent stuff!

[Defend Greece]

I'm surprised it wasn't brought back after the draft, since the assumption was Dareus would be gone. Not only do we have the 5 technique, but if Merriman is healthy, we have all 3 elements OP mentioned for a successful 3-4.

Excellent stuff!

That's what I'm saying, the only way I would be more happy is if kelsay was a backup and Troup started with Kyle moving outside

[DanInUticaTampa]

I haven't written troup off yet, but at this point, no way should he be starting at NT. If anything, just rotate him as the 2nd DT when they play the 4-3. Nosetackle is too important of a position to let him start in. He hasn't prove much of anything yet. Much better to have a defensive line with edwards-williams-dareus than williams-troup-dareus. Troup is still developing and has a lot to prove. Carrington looks like a much better prospect for the dline, but mostly as a pass rusher.

[Defend Greece]

I haven't written troup off yet, but at this point, no way should he be starting at NT. If anything, just rotate him as the 2nd DT when they play the 4-3. Nosetackle is too important of a position to let him start in. He hasn't prove much of anything yet. Much better to have a defensive line with edwards-williams-dareus than williams-troup-dareus. Troup is still developing and has a lot to prove. Carrington looks like a much better prospect for the dline, but mostly as a pass rusher.

Whatever gets the best players on the field

[DanInUticaTampa]

Well, the few plays troup played last year, he certianly isn't the best for the position. as a 2nd rounder, he is almost disappointing, but he certianly still has plenty of upside.

 

The front 3 linemen are fine. it is the linebackers that look iffy. kesely isn't a olb, batten and merriman are injury prone, and davis has a history of recent injuries as well. Shepard, a interesting rookie, hasn't been able to hit the field in preseason yet and is unproven. then after that, there really isnt much depth. If only one of them gets a major injury this year, it would be a miricle. A lot of people are saying the defense is set, but those linebackers are very iffy. Almost as iffy as the oline.

[TPS]

I haven't written troup off yet, but at this point, no way should he be starting at NT. If anything, just rotate him as the 2nd DT when they play the 4-3. Nosetackle is too important of a position to let him start in. He hasn't prove much of anything yet. Much better to have a defensive line with edwards-williams-dareus than williams-troup-dareus. Troup is still developing and has a lot to prove. Carrington looks like a much better prospect for the dline, but mostly as a pass rusher.

Reports from Thursday's camp were a dominant 1st string D-line of Dareus-Williams-Carrington, as Edwards was sidelined. Carrington has all of the tools and will bookend with Dareus and dominate. I like the idea of Williams in the middle of those two. Pick your poison! Now, if only #56 can stay healthy...

[pimp on da' net]

Well, the few plays troup played last year, he certianly isn't the best for the position. as a 2nd rounder, he is almost disappointing, but he certianly still has plenty of upside.

 

The front 3 linemen are fine. it is the linebackers that look iffy. kesely isn't a olb, batten and merriman are injury prone, and davis has a history of recent injuries as well. Shepard, a interesting rookie, hasn't been able to hit the field in preseason yet and is unproven. then after that, there really isnt much depth. If only one of them gets a major injury this year, it would be a miricle. A lot of people are saying the defense is set, but those linebackers are very iffy. Almost as iffy as the oline.

 

Good point.Lets just hope with a bigger more physical DL it'll protect the LB's & keep them clean.