Putting Together a 3-4 Defense

[John from Riverside]

Correct. I couldn't agree more. I think they could both be good. I actually agree with most of his points just not one of the conclusions to draft the pass rushing specialist that he happens to support so strongly in other threads while he attacked my posts and cut down Quinn. I agree we shouldn't cut down either. Now tell him that

 

 

OK...maybe I haven't looked at all the posts in here...

 

 

I would take either one of these players

[qdawg in philly]

This post, folks, is an example of three things:

 

1) How to go out of your way to be an a**hole.

 

2) How to misconstrue a well-researched post in order to start an argument.

 

3) How to ensure you work yourself onto someone's ingore list.

 

Welcome to my "Ignore" list, PDaDdy.

Tell him Bandit!! I was thinking the same thing!

[bobobonators]

With the draft coming up, I decided to do a bit of research as to how teams—both successful and unsuccessful—put together their 3-4 defense. The goal here being to assess how Buffalo should proceed in putting together the components for an effective 3-4 defense this coming season. For the 2011 season (assuming there is one…ugh), 14 teams will operate from a 3-4 alignment at least part of the time. Those teams are: Buffalo, New England, Miami, NY Jets, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Houston, Kansas City, San Diego, Arizona, San Francisco, Green Bay, Washington, and Dallas.

 

To begin with, I started by looking at the defensive performance of each team for the 2010 season, which I’ve outlined below. Please note that I ranked each team according to yards-per-play for total defense, yards-per-rush allowed for run defense, and yards-per-attempt allowed for pass defense; done so because these numbers are typically the most reflective of the overall performance of the team’s defense, as there tends to be very little skewing of the figures to do play call imbalance, game situations, etc. Please also note that I excluded Houston from the analysis, since they did not run the 3-4 in 2010 (which is also the reason that team s like Denver and Cleveland were not included, since they’re switching to a 4-3 for 2011).

 

Team-----------Overall D (YPP)------------Pass D (YPA) -----------Run D (YPA)

Pittsburgh-------------1-----------------------1-----------------------1

San Diego--------------2-----------------------3-----------------------4

NYJ--------------------3-----------------------5-T---------------------3

Miami------------------4-----------------------19-T--------------------7

Baltimore--------------6-----------------------2-----------------------5

San Francisco----------8-----------------------23-T--------------------6

Green Bay--------------9-----------------------5-T---------------------18

Kansas City-----------12-----------------------5-T---------------------14

Buffalo---------------20-----------------------14----------------------32

Arizona---------------23-----------------------25-T--------------------30

New England-----------26-----------------------19-T--------------------11

Dallas----------------28-----------------------29----------------------12

Washington------------30-----------------------28----------------------26

 

In looking at the above, I deem it safe to say that there is clearly a cutoff between the teams that run a 3-4 effectively, and the teams that do not, with Kansas City being the final of the 8 teams to make the “cut”, and Buffalo being the first of the 5 that do not. This is where I started to get into the details a bit more. Let’s take a look at the teams that make the cut, their starters at what I call the “key positions” (both 5-tech DEs, NT, and both OLBs), the rounds in which those players were drafted, and which teams acquired their starters via the draft vs. via free agency.

 

Team-------DE------------------NT------------------DE-----------------OLB------------------OLB

Pit--Keisel (7-FA)----C. Hampton (1)----------E. Hood (1)-------L. Woodley (2)------J. Harrison (UDFA-FA)

SD----Castillo (1)------A. Garay (6-FA)--J. Cesaire (UDFA)-----A. Applewhite (UDFA)--S. Phillips (4)

NYJ---S. Ellis (1)-------S. Pouha (3)------M. Devito (UDFA-FA)--C. Pace (1-FA)------B. Thomas (1-FA)

Mia--K. Langford (3)------P. Soliai (4)-----R. Starks (3-FA)----C. Wake (UDFA-FA)------K. Misi (2)

Bal-----H. Ngata (1)----K. Gregg (6-FA)----C. Redding (2-FA)-------T. Suggs (1)-------J. Johnson (2)

SF----J. Smith (1-FA)---I. Sopoaga (4)------A. Franklin (5-FA)---P. Harylson (4)------M. Lawson (1)

GB--C. Jenkins (UDFA)-----B. Raji (1)-------R. Pickett (1-FA)-----C. Matthews (1)-----F. Zombo (UDFA)

KC--G. Dorsey (1)------R. Edwards (3-FA)----S. Smith (5-FA)----M. Vrabel (UDFA-FA)-------T. Hali (1)

 

So what can we learn from this data set? A few things in my opinion.

 

GIMME FIVE!

 

My numbers-based claim: the best run stopping teams focus on the 5-technique position.

 

Of the 13 teams examined, 6 finished in the top 7 run defenses in the league. Of those teams (Pit, SD, NYJ, Mia, Bal, and SF), all but 1 (Miami) started a first round pick at the 5-technique spot. A quick comparison shows that the 5 aforementioned teams that did not make the cut had a total of 2 first round picks starting at 5-technique between them.

 

Additionally, you’ll notice that only one of these players—San Francisco’s Justin Smith—was obtained via free agency; the rest were drafted. Interestingly enough, however, is the fact that—in each of the cases in which the team spent a first-round pick on a 5-technique—the player manning the same position on the other side of the line was acquired via free agency.

 

FOLLOW YOUR NOSE?

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 teams apparently do not spend high draft picks on nose tackles.

 

Only 3 of the 13 teams on the list started first round picks at NT, while 8 of the remaining 10 started players drafted in the fourth round or later. Of the 8 teams that made the cut, only 2 started first round nose tackles. There also appears to be no correlation between a high draft pick spent at NT and ability to defend the run, as Pittsburgh (with former first rounder Casey Hampton manning the nose) finished #1 in run D, but Green Bay (with former top 10 pick B.J. Raji holding down the position) finished 18th.

 

FEELING A RUSH…

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 pass defenses have at least one dominant pass rusher.

 

This is going to sound weird, but 6 of the 13 teams listed finished in the top 5 in the league in pass defense (because there was a 3-way tie for fifth). Of those 6 teams, only 1 managed to do so without starting an OLB that amassed 10 or more sacks during the course of the season. That team was the Jets, who'se leading pass rusher was Bryan Thomas (6 sacks). This shouldn’t be terribly surprising, considering that they boast what is widely considered the best CB tandem in the NFL in Darrelle Revis and Antonio Cromartie.

 

Looking at the other 5 teams, however, the importance of having a dominant pass rusher at OLB is apparent. Pittsburgh, who finished first in the NFL in pass defense, was the only team of the 5 with 2 different OLBs that amassed 10 or more sacks. The others all had at least one. In fact, of the other 7 teams on the list, only 2 had OLBs that hit the mark: Dallas’ DeMarcus Ware and Miami’s Cameron Wake. The next closest player was Washington’s Brian Orakpo, who had 8.5 sacks.

 

CONCLUSIONS

 

So what would I like to see Buffalo do? Let’s start with the obvious:

 

1. Draft a 5-technique player. Does it have to be a first-round pick? Not necessarily in my opinion, but I think it needs to be a first round talent. The good news is that Buffalo is in the position to do that this year. If it’s at No. 3 overall, it’s likely a choice between Cam Jordan, Nick Fairley, and J.J. Watt (assuming Marcel Dareus is gone at that point). However, this draft is as deep in 5-technique players as any in recent memory, so waiting until No. 34 might be an okay strategy, as long as the team understands that they may need to get a bit lucky to get the guy they really want at that spot. Prospects at that point would include Oregon State’s Steven Paea, UNC’s Marvin Austin, USC’s Jurrell Casey, Miami’s Allen Bailey, and Iowa’s Christian Ballard.

 

2. Don’t jump the gun on a nose tackle. We all watched this team last year; can anyone tell me that they don’t think Kyle Williams can handle the NT position provided he’s afforded better players flanking him at the DE spots? I sure do. I also think it’s a bit too early to give up on Torell Troup. There are options available for this team later in the draft, including players like Hampton’s Kenrick Ellis (2-3), Temple’s Elisha Joseph (3-4), Southern Mississippi’s Anthony Gray (4), and board-favorite Blaine “The Incredible Hulk” Sumner from the Colorado School of Mines (5-7).

 

3. Identify your pass rusher. I know some of you are comfortable with Arthur Moats being the team’s most effective pass rusher, but I’m not. At least not yet. This team needs a player that other teams have to game plan against; somebody that forces opponents to keep a RB in the backfield for pass protection. The No. 3 pick is probably the team’s best chance to get that guy, considering that the draft is relatively top-heavy when it comes to pass rushers. I count 5 guys that I’m comfortable saying can play the 3-4 OLB role: Von Miller, Ryan Kerrigan, Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, and Akeem Ayers. None of them are likely to make it past the end of the first round. There are other conversion candidates like Robert Quinn—who clearly won’t be available at the No. 34 pick—and Brooks Reed, whose productivity never really matched his physical ability at Arizona. If the team decides to go elsewhere in the first round, they could look to Texas’ Sam Acho or Fresno State’s Chris Carter in the second or third round.

 

That’s all I’ve got for now, I hope this has been worth the read for you, and I welcome any feedback, comments, musings, criticisms, or random statements that have nothing to do with this post.

 

- Bandit

 

Great post man!

 

1. If Dareus is there, he must be taken. DE solved.

2. I agree as well - let TT continue to develope! KW didn't dominate right off the bat. DT/NT's take a couple of seasons to grow into the position at the NFL level.

3. If this team is absolutely sold on Sam Acho, I would have no issues either, 1. trading back into later in the 2nd round and grabbing him there, or 2. trading back up into the 2nd round and grabbing him there. Acho is still a bit raw, but his ceiling is potentially much higher than some of the OLB/DE that will be taken in the 1st round.

[Malazan]

Welcome to my "Ignore" list, PDaDdy.

 

This should be done for members automatically upon registering an account.

[I hate the Bills !]

I personally believe that the Bills will go Miller at # 3 However there are other teams who want him also, so, what if we traded with Arizona for the 5 pick and we picked up A 2nd round pick in addition to taking Shutdown Corner Patrick Peterson. Clearly our Corners need help and McGee's best years are behind him. Peterson and Leodis could man the corners with Youboty, Florence and the rest of the posse as backups. McGee might be a good idea to move him to safety.

 

 

Then what to do with our 2nd second round pick. I would use both our 2nd round picks for A DT and a OT.

 

That is unless we can move down a few more and get another 2nd round pick.

[3rdand12]

I am late to the party again. But the conclusions 1,2,3 were very well thought out.

Of course i have my comments and particulars, but very thoughtful work, op. I enjoyed the read and of course the best part was that you got me thinking.

My conclusion is that this should/could be a very interesting season with the recent drafts and soon to be drafts in our Transition to a 3/4.

ps i still want a "big" ILB.

i have my own agenda too. Dareus and and The ilb.

you guys can have the rest of the picks

[Spiderweb]

With the draft coming up, I decided to do a bit of research as to how teams—both successful and unsuccessful—put together their 3-4 defense. The goal here being to assess how Buffalo should proceed in putting together the components for an effective 3-4 defense this coming season. For the 2011 season (assuming there is one…ugh), 14 teams will operate from a 3-4 alignment at least part of the time. Those teams are: Buffalo, New England, Miami, NY Jets, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Houston, Kansas City, San Diego, Arizona, San Francisco, Green Bay, Washington, and Dallas.

 

To begin with, I started by looking at the defensive performance of each team for the 2010 season, which I’ve outlined below. Please note that I ranked each team according to yards-per-play for total defense, yards-per-rush allowed for run defense, and yards-per-attempt allowed for pass defense; done so because these numbers are typically the most reflective of the overall performance of the team’s defense, as there tends to be very little skewing of the figures to do play call imbalance, game situations, etc. Please also note that I excluded Houston from the analysis, since they did not run the 3-4 in 2010 (which is also the reason that team s like Denver and Cleveland were not included, since they’re switching to a 4-3 for 2011).

 

Team-----------Overall D (YPP)------------Pass D (YPA) -----------Run D (YPA)

Pittsburgh-------------1-----------------------1-----------------------1

San Diego--------------2-----------------------3-----------------------4

NYJ--------------------3-----------------------5-T---------------------3

Miami------------------4-----------------------19-T--------------------7

Baltimore--------------6-----------------------2-----------------------5

San Francisco----------8-----------------------23-T--------------------6

Green Bay--------------9-----------------------5-T---------------------18

Kansas City-----------12-----------------------5-T---------------------14

Buffalo---------------20-----------------------14----------------------32

Arizona---------------23-----------------------25-T--------------------30

New England-----------26-----------------------19-T--------------------11

Dallas----------------28-----------------------29----------------------12

Washington------------30-----------------------28----------------------26

 

In looking at the above, I deem it safe to say that there is clearly a cutoff between the teams that run a 3-4 effectively, and the teams that do not, with Kansas City being the final of the 8 teams to make the “cut”, and Buffalo being the first of the 5 that do not. This is where I started to get into the details a bit more. Let’s take a look at the teams that make the cut, their starters at what I call the “key positions” (both 5-tech DEs, NT, and both OLBs), the rounds in which those players were drafted, and which teams acquired their starters via the draft vs. via free agency.

 

Team-------DE------------------NT------------------DE-----------------OLB------------------OLB

Pit--Keisel (7-FA)----C. Hampton (1)----------E. Hood (1)-------L. Woodley (2)------J. Harrison (UDFA-FA)

SD----Castillo (1)------A. Garay (6-FA)--J. Cesaire (UDFA)-----A. Applewhite (UDFA)--S. Phillips (4)

NYJ---S. Ellis (1)-------S. Pouha (3)------M. Devito (UDFA-FA)--C. Pace (1-FA)------B. Thomas (1-FA)

Mia--K. Langford (3)------P. Soliai (4)-----R. Starks (3-FA)----C. Wake (UDFA-FA)------K. Misi (2)

Bal-----H. Ngata (1)----K. Gregg (6-FA)----C. Redding (2-FA)-------T. Suggs (1)-------J. Johnson (2)

SF----J. Smith (1-FA)---I. Sopoaga (4)------A. Franklin (5-FA)---P. Harylson (4)------M. Lawson (1)

GB--C. Jenkins (UDFA)-----B. Raji (1)-------R. Pickett (1-FA)-----C. Matthews (1)-----F. Zombo (UDFA)

KC--G. Dorsey (1)------R. Edwards (3-FA)----S. Smith (5-FA)----M. Vrabel (UDFA-FA)-------T. Hali (1)

 

So what can we learn from this data set? A few things in my opinion.

 

GIMME FIVE!

 

My numbers-based claim: the best run stopping teams focus on the 5-technique position.

 

Of the 13 teams examined, 6 finished in the top 7 run defenses in the league. Of those teams (Pit, SD, NYJ, Mia, Bal, and SF), all but 1 (Miami) started a first round pick at the 5-technique spot. A quick comparison shows that the 5 aforementioned teams that did not make the cut had a total of 2 first round picks starting at 5-technique between them.

 

Additionally, you’ll notice that only one of these players—San Francisco’s Justin Smith—was obtained via free agency; the rest were drafted. Interestingly enough, however, is the fact that—in each of the cases in which the team spent a first-round pick on a 5-technique—the player manning the same position on the other side of the line was acquired via free agency.

 

FOLLOW YOUR NOSE?

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 teams apparently do not spend high draft picks on nose tackles.

 

Only 3 of the 13 teams on the list started first round picks at NT, while 8 of the remaining 10 started players drafted in the fourth round or later. Of the 8 teams that made the cut, only 2 started first round nose tackles. There also appears to be no correlation between a high draft pick spent at NT and ability to defend the run, as Pittsburgh (with former first rounder Casey Hampton manning the nose) finished #1 in run D, but Green Bay (with former top 10 pick B.J. Raji holding down the position) finished 18th.

 

FEELING A RUSH…

 

My numbers-based claim: the best 3-4 pass defenses have at least one dominant pass rusher.

 

This is going to sound weird, but 6 of the 13 teams listed finished in the top 5 in the league in pass defense (because there was a 3-way tie for fifth). Of those 6 teams, only 1 managed to do so without starting an OLB that amassed 10 or more sacks during the course of the season. That team was the Jets, who'se leading pass rusher was Bryan Thomas (6 sacks). This shouldn’t be terribly surprising, considering that they boast what is widely considered the best CB tandem in the NFL in Darrelle Revis and Antonio Cromartie.

 

Looking at the other 5 teams, however, the importance of having a dominant pass rusher at OLB is apparent. Pittsburgh, who finished first in the NFL in pass defense, was the only team of the 5 with 2 different OLBs that amassed 10 or more sacks. The others all had at least one. In fact, of the other 7 teams on the list, only 2 had OLBs that hit the mark: Dallas’ DeMarcus Ware and Miami’s Cameron Wake. The next closest player was Washington’s Brian Orakpo, who had 8.5 sacks.

 

CONCLUSIONS

 

So what would I like to see Buffalo do? Let’s start with the obvious:

 

1. Draft a 5-technique player. Does it have to be a first-round pick? Not necessarily in my opinion, but I think it needs to be a first round talent. The good news is that Buffalo is in the position to do that this year. If it’s at No. 3 overall, it’s likely a choice between Cam Jordan, Nick Fairley, and J.J. Watt (assuming Marcel Dareus is gone at that point). However, this draft is as deep in 5-technique players as any in recent memory, so waiting until No. 34 might be an okay strategy, as long as the team understands that they may need to get a bit lucky to get the guy they really want at that spot. Prospects at that point would include Oregon State’s Steven Paea, UNC’s Marvin Austin, USC’s Jurrell Casey, Miami’s Allen Bailey, and Iowa’s Christian Ballard.

 

2. Don’t jump the gun on a nose tackle. We all watched this team last year; can anyone tell me that they don’t think Kyle Williams can handle the NT position provided he’s afforded better players flanking him at the DE spots? I sure do. I also think it’s a bit too early to give up on Torell Troup. There are options available for this team later in the draft, including players like Hampton’s Kenrick Ellis (2-3), Temple’s Elisha Joseph (3-4), Southern Mississippi’s Anthony Gray (4), and board-favorite Blaine “The Incredible Hulk” Sumner from the Colorado School of Mines (5-7).

 

3. Identify your pass rusher. I know some of you are comfortable with Arthur Moats being the team’s most effective pass rusher, but I’m not. At least not yet. This team needs a player that other teams have to game plan against; somebody that forces opponents to keep a RB in the backfield for pass protection. The No. 3 pick is probably the team’s best chance to get that guy, considering that the draft is relatively top-heavy when it comes to pass rushers. I count 5 guys that I’m comfortable saying can play the 3-4 OLB role: Von Miller, Ryan Kerrigan, Justin Houston, Aldon Smith, and Akeem Ayers. None of them are likely to make it past the end of the first round. There are other conversion candidates like Robert Quinn—who clearly won’t be available at the No. 34 pick—and Brooks Reed, whose productivity never really matched his physical ability at Arizona. If the team decides to go elsewhere in the first round, they could look to Texas’ Sam Acho or Fresno State’s Chris Carter in the second or third round.

 

That’s all I’ve got for now, I hope this has been worth the read for you, and I welcome any feedback, comments, musings, criticisms, or random statements that have nothing to do with this post.

 

- Bandit

 

Farnkly, I did not read the entire post, but one part did catch my attention and that was whether Kyle Williams can handle the NT position. I would disagree. More talent around him will help, but he more a penetrating type when he's successful. He is not anywhere near stout enough for a pure NT against the run. Our run defense for a number of years has needed improvement and in his five years with the Bills, our run D has progressively gotten worse. While I do agree a big part of that is due to a lack of talent around him, he has shown to be at his best as a 4-3 type tackle. The game he had against Pittsburgh last year was performance to behold against Chris Kemoeatu. Williams destroyed him, yet after that game he went relatively quiet afterwards.

 

I love the way he plays the game, his heart, his intensity, but to me he's a 4-3 tackle.

[Mr. ChumChums]

Farnkly, I did not read the entire post, but one part did catch my attention and that was whether Kyle Williams can handle the NT position. I would disagree. More talent around him will help, but he more a penetrating type when he's successful. He is not anywhere near stout enough for a pure NT against the run. Our run defense for a number of years has needed improvement and in his five years with the Bills, our run D has progressively gotten worse. While I do agree a big part of that is due to a lack of talent around him, he has shown to be at his best as a 4-3 type tackle. The game he had against Pittsburgh last year was performance to behold against Chris Kemoeatu. Williams destroyed him, yet after that game he went relatively quiet afterwards.

 

I love the way he plays the game, his heart, his intensity, but to me he's a 4-3 tackle.

 

I would have to disagree with you here, and here's why.

 

I think it's a common misconception that your NT is supposed to be your big fat man plugging the middle in a 3-4. It all depends on the TYPE of 3-4 that you want to run. Yes, in the traditional "Bill Parcells" style 3-4, you need a big, run plugging 335 lb NT, with 2 300 lb DE's on the edge. However, there are only so many guys that are 320+ lbs, and athletic enough to play on a d-line like that. Because of this, several types of 3-4 defenses have evolved to compensate for the lack of available bodies, and to take advantage of the talents of certain individuals.

 

Kyle Williams can be a star NT in the right type of 3-4. It doesn't matter if he's a penetrator, or a run-stuffer. He's widely regarded as being one of the BEST DT's against the run in the game, primarily because of his ability to get into the backfield. That, by itself, warrants double, and triple teams, allowing our LB's (our playmakers in the 3-4) to do their job. He's the type of player you build a 3-4 around - not someone you try to fit into some scheme. It all depends on whether or not George Edwards and the Wannestache can find a way to utilize KW's abilities best in the defense they want to run.

[PDaDdy]

I would have to disagree with you here, and here's why.

 

I think it's a common misconception that your NT is supposed to be your big fat man plugging the middle in a 3-4. It all depends on the TYPE of 3-4 that you want to run. Yes, in the traditional "Bill Parcells" style 3-4, you need a big, run plugging 335 lb NT, with 2 300 lb DE's on the edge. However, there are only so many guys that are 320+ lbs, and athletic enough to play on a d-line like that. Because of this, several types of 3-4 defenses have evolved to compensate for the lack of available bodies, and to take advantage of the talents of certain individuals.

 

Kyle Williams can be a star NT in the right type of 3-4. It doesn't matter if he's a penetrator, or a run-stuffer. He's widely regarded as being one of the BEST DT's against the run in the game, primarily because of his ability to get into the backfield. That, by itself, warrants double, and triple teams, allowing our LB's (our playmakers in the 3-4) to do their job. He's the type of player you build a 3-4 around - not someone you try to fit into some scheme. It all depends on whether or not George Edwards and the Wannestache can find a way to utilize KW's abilities best in the defense they want to run.

 

 

I used to dog Kyle Williams. He is the man. He is a penetrating NT though. This in large part could be part of the run defense problem. I think he needs to be a DE in the 3-4. Let Troup man the nose.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I've posted this link many times, and still consider it to be the best overall explanation of how defenses in the NFl work. It goes pretty in depth, discussing the various defensive philosophies, and what's required, etc...

 

http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php

 

It's so good, that it was actually dropped into a 7-part NY Times series. Link to that is here (it's the exact same thing).

 

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/guide-to-n-f-l-defenses-part-1/

 

 

So with that said, here are my thoughts.

- I don't think we really have a need for a 5-technique. We drafted Alex Carrington last year, and have Dwan Edwards. Maybe we draft another for depth, but to be honest, I think we're fine.

 

- Regarding NT, if you read the link I posted above, there are several types of 3-4 defenses. Not all of them need a 345 lb space eater at NT. The 3-4 that Wade Philips ran in Dallas, and that his father, Bum Philips developed, instead relies on the D-Line attacking gaps. Take a look at Jay Ratliff - he's only about 300 lbs, but is widely considered to be a top 5 NT in the league. Kyle Williams is fine at NT - I trust the George Edwards to build a scheme around his strengths, which are penetrating the interior.

 

- Our run defense was terrible last year. We all know that. But what bugs me is that everyone thinks it's the fault of our D-Line. We in fact had probably the WORST LB corp in the NFL last season. They were so bad in fact, that the NFL network had 20 minute video segments during the season laughing at how bad Chris Kelsay was. What we need are playmaking LB's. I don't care if it's Von Miller or someone else - I want a playmaker, and someone that can both rush the passer, and put a beating on a runner. We are 2 LB's away from having a serviceable group - a Pass rushing OLB, and another ILB to play alongside Poz.

Why the trust in Edwards? George started out 2-gapping last year until it was way beyond obvious that he didn't have the horses for it and then he went to the 1-gap hybridized scheme to try and get things shored up a bit. Frankly he's never done anything to earn anyone's blind faith.

 

The Bills did have lousy LB play last year. Some of that was that the parts didn't fit, though. If you want to have smaller penetrating DL, then having them backed up by LBs that can't get off blocks and can't get to their gap responsibilities is going to give you a really bad run defense.

 

The coaching was also terrible. So they went out and hired a 4-3 expert.

[Mr. ChumChums]

Why the trust in Edwards? George started out 2-gapping last year until it was way beyond obvious that he didn't have the horses for it and then he went to the 1-gap hybridized scheme to try and get things shored up a bit. Frankly he's never done anything to earn anyone's blind faith.

 

The Bills did have lousy LB play last year. Some of that was that the parts didn't fit, though. If you want to have smaller penetrating DL, then having them backed up by LBs that can't get off blocks and can't get to their gap responsibilities is going to give you a really bad run defense.

 

The coaching was also terrible. So they went out and hired a 4-3 expert.

 

Ok, I could agree with you there I guess. George Edwards doesn't deserve our blind faith, but what about the tag-team of Edwards Wannstedt?

 

And for what it's worth, at least Edwards did make an adjustment from the 2-gap to the 1-gap. Many coaches wouldn't have gone that far, but he at least did make the change. Granted...a little late / slow on it, but still.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Mr. ChumChums

[Sisyphean Bills]

Ok, I could agree with you there I guess. George Edwards doesn't deserve our blind faith, but what about the tag-team of Edwards Wannstedt?

 

And for what it's worth, at least Edwards did make an adjustment from the 2-gap to the 1-gap. Many coaches wouldn't have gone that far, but he at least did make the change. Granted...a little late / slow on it, but still.

Well, there is that but it's like praising them for figuring out Trent Edwards sucked after he had started 2 games.

[roccitybillsfan]

Great posts all around. Rocc, I agree with what you said quite a bit. And I'll take you up on your dream scenario.

1st Newton- Big boom or bust possibility here, I'm betting on boom and having our future franchise QB for 10+ years

2nd Clayborne- the DE we need badly

3rd Moch- with Clayborne, Moch, Moats and Merriman I'd be happy with this group

4th Green- the TE that Newton can rely on for years. He's a beast of an athlete, and a good run blocker

4th Mathews OLB/ILB- could be just as good as his Brother or father. I'm counting on bloodlines here. At worst he'll be a servicable backup.

5th Brown- were gonna need another CB at some point. I'm really hoping we keep Florence but it's not looking good right now. Brown from Texas could at worst case be a nickle/dime guy if not better.

6th Keo- when I look at this guy I see Polamalu. I'm not sure if it's the Pacific islander thing or if it's the way he plays. Maybe both. I'm ok with taking a chance on the kid and hoping he's a steal.

7th I don't really have anyone in mind for our 2 7th rounders. So just give me anyone that can contribute and fills a need on the team. Another CB, LB, OG, OT would be fine.

 

This would probably be my dream draft. Get the potential star QB and hope he pans out and beef up the Defense almost the rest of the draft.

Thoughts?

 

 

I hope we get a late round bubba to be more of a space eater in the middle of the Defense. Hoping for another Pat Williams type of guy or even another Mr. Washington of past Bills teams. Also hope we address OT and maybe TE if/when we have a free agency.

 

 

POW!!!

 

Great links...good stuff.

 

If I were certain that Carrington could become the stalwart 5-technique, I'd agree, but until we're certain, I'd like to see them grab another one.

 

 

 

Thank you sir.

 

 

 

Agreed regarding the correlation (or lack thereof) between draft position and productivity...exactly why I tried not to draw conclusions from it. Also agree that Taylor would be a steal at 34.

 

 

 

Personally, I'd like either Miller, Jordan, or Watt.

 

By the way, does POW stand for something, or is it just for effect? Either way I'm cool, just curious.

 

 

 

Nobody that matters, to my knowledge. I just meant that he's too young and too new to the NT position to make drafting another NT prospect a priority, that's all.

 

 

 

Totally agree.

 

 

 

Thanks San Jose.

 

Ayers is a guy that I think will be a solid but unspectacular linebacker. I like him because he's scheme-diverse, and if Buffalo is going to play a hybrid that could be an asset. As a pass rusher, I definitely think Reed is a better player; the reason I have him going later than Ayers is simply that he'll be drafted as a conversion guy, and the adjustment might be tough for him at first.

 

As for Sheard, I think he's a guy that would be a first-round pick if he didn't have a violent crime on his rap sheet. He's an extremely talented pass rusher and has a knack for making plays when he gets to the QB (4 FF on 9 sacks as a senior). I love the talent, but I'm uncomfortable with the kid.

 

 

 

You love the athletes, huh mrags? That's okay by me; there's one thing you can't teach: talent.

 

Thanks for the reply bandit. POW doesn't stand for anything. My trademark, I guess. It's just for effect, kinda like, "Pow! There you have it!"

 

I believe in Blaine Gabbert, and about how he'll be able to be very successful in the NFL.

Here's why:

 

- While he did run the spread offense in college, his spread wasn't a quick 1-read and go type offense as it was with Cam Newton. Gabbert's offense was somewhat complex, where he actually had to make defensive reads, make adjustments, audibles, etc... He had to progress from his #1, to his #2, to his #3, etc. Very similar to how Sam Bradford had to make reads in school. Other QB's, like Cam Newton and Christian Ponder had 1 read in their offenses. They were very simple.

- Everybody says he's accurate - I'm not sure how to really gauge that, but that's what I hear on TV, Internet, and Radio.

- He has a good arm. Not the best, but good. Better than Bradford's, at least from what I've heard.

 

 

If you want to look at the defensive side of the ball, I gotta go with Von Miller. Even though he has the size issues, you can't really find a negative with him. And if you watch tape on his sacks, you see some variety in terms of how he gets to the QB. It's not like Maybinot, where all he did was run around the edge to the QB. He actually does have a bunch of moves that he can use.

 

Awesome! Thanks for your feedback Chum!

 

 

POW!!!

Edited April 14, 2011 by roccitybillsfan

[ganesh]

For me the key to running a successful 3-4 is to have an experienced coordinator. All the successful 3-4 teams have a well proven DC whether it is Dick LeBeau in Pittsburgh or Wade Phillips in Dallas or Dom Capers in Green Bay or Rex Ryan in NY. Unfortunately, we do not have a capable DC. It all starts at the top. I still regret the day Donahoe did not fire Jerry Gray and replace him with LeBeau thereby never giving him an opportunity to leave Buffalo. We were a year too late in offering the job to LeBeau especially when Bill Cowher came calling.

[3rdand12]

Can we pick up a later round monster of a man NT in the mid / late rounds of the draft to back up Troup and start Torell T.? With Kyle at an end and Carrington and Edwards also at the edges, can we get V. Miller and with a " big " Ilb included in drafting this year, could we play a solid 3-4 with some success?

[qdawg in philly]

Can we pick up a later round monster of a man NT in the mid / late rounds of the draft to back up Troup and start Torell T.? With Kyle at an end and Carrington and Edwards also at the edges, can we get V. Miller and with a " big " Ilb included in drafting this year, could we play a solid 3-4 with some success?

We sure could!! Check out Drafttek. Oh.....credit to Astrobot.

[3rdand12]

lol. love the bot!

[spartacus]

For me the key to running a successful 3-4 is to have an experienced coordinator. All the successful 3-4 teams have a well proven DC whether it is Dick LeBeau in Pittsburgh or Wade Phillips in Dallas or Dom Capers in Green Bay or Rex Ryan in NY. Unfortunately, we do not have a capable DC. It all starts at the top. I still regret the day Donahoe did not fire Jerry Gray and replace him with LeBeau thereby never giving him an opportunity to leave Buffalo. We were a year too late in offering the job to LeBeau especially when Bill Cowher came calling.

 

coaching is the single most important component needed to convert to a 3-4 and run is successfully.

 

 

The Bills have no clue as evidenced by keeping the inept Edwards as DC, and then hiring Wannstadt as a backseat driver with zero experience in installing or running a 3-4.

 

The strength of the 3-4 is the zone blitz out of multiple looks - which comes from experience.

 

Edwards basically lined up his 3 DL to go against 5 OL and got butchered.

 

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

Will a hybrid give multiple looks and pssibly create confusion or is it just a response to the offensive package.

We have had no one that could actually blitz besides Moats so far. Or truly pass rush. Are you sure it does not weigh heavy for lack of players? also i thought, maybe incorrectly that the Jets did not blitz very much. But had some success in 3/4, but used 2 shut down corners as their method and strength?

[K-9]

Will a hybrid give multiple looks and pssibly create confusion or is it just a response to the offensive package.

We have had no one that could actually blitz besides Moats so far. Or truly pass rush. Are you sure it does not weigh heavy for lack of players? also i thought, maybe incorrectly that the Jets did not blitz very much. But had some success in 3/4, but used 2 shut down corners as their method and strength?

 

The Jests' scheme depends on the blitz. And that blitz depends on strong man coverage by their corners. Ryan likes to bring his safety with an LB a LOT, usually to the weak side and tries to exploit numbers mismatches. He's a chip off his father's block that's for sure.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited April 15, 2011 by K-9