C.Biscuit97 Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I think OBD looked at spiller as the same type of player as Jamaal charles and it seems everyone at obd was convinced he was a no brainer. I guess it's difficult to fathom, but not every player starts off great. Since I've been in pittsburgh I'm innundated (sp) with their picks, but many have started slowly. Troy P was being talked about as not worth the pick after his first year; Timmons (1st round) didn't play while Woodley (2nd) started from the beginning; Ziggy Hood didn't play much in his first year either, and hasn't played much until Aaron Smith got hurt. Point being you take the biggest difference maker you can. I'm not saying it will always work out, but I don't think it was a reach to take Spiller at that spot. I disagree. If a player doesn't make the pro bowl as a rookie, I'd cut them no questions asked.
Chas56 Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I agree with the poster that wondered why Modrak still has a job. Also, Ralph should back off. It is his sandbox, but time shows he isn't good at this. I say let Nix and Gailey work it out. I wouldnt even let Modrak grade them.
Pirate Angel Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 This was a bad bad decision and probably hurt the Bills in a couple of different ways.... I know some people hate it.....but when trying to figure out what went wrong with this once proud franchise you have to look at the past history...... Picks like Maybin, Whitner, McCargo, JP Losman, Mike Williams........have absolutely KILLED this team over the years and when you are a team that relies mainly on the draft to bring in talent.......just franchise killer moves I feel much better with Buddy Nix making the decisions I give them a pass on Williams, he was a monster at Texas and anyone would have wiffed on him, the rest where all very questionable even at the college ranks.. You also forgot Mcgahee, Lynch and even tradiing a first for Drew Bledsoe. You could also throw in some second round picks that added nothing to the team like James Hardy.
4BillsintheBurgh Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I disagree. If a player doesn't make the pro bowl as a rookie, I'd cut them no questions asked. I get the sarcasm, but I also see the point that the reasoning behind not taking a player like Tebow last year was that we needed impact players not projects. So there's a fail there with the 2010 class because there wasn't much impact. Not really what any fan was looking for. I think they took some good players, but those players did not live up to the expectations that were implied by Buddy/Chan during the preseason. I'm hoping for more this year, although I am less concerned about the position selected than most on this board. We need more talent on this roster, period. That means draft picks need to make the roster and play a large role. The second year players need to make strides also if we are going to get this thing turned around. My fingers are crossed.
Alphadawg7 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Sounds like maybe the powers that be at the time should have listened to what the experts were saying . I liked what Marv did for the Bills as a coach but this tells me that the draft guru at the time Pollian was the man that knew how to spot the talent not Marv , although he did know how to put the talent to good use !! Oh well - Can't worry about yesterday it's gone just looking forward to this year !! GO BILLS !!! Keep in mind, the game is inherently different now than it was then. So, doesn't mean Levy wasn't heavily involved in building that team just because he failed miserably as our GM a lifetime later where he had been out of the game way too long and came back to a game that was so different than the one he left.
Dawgg Posted April 13, 2011 Author Posted April 13, 2011 I'll take the bait, even though it is more than a little sad that this seems to be the only thing you post about (you probably still can't get over that girl who dumped you in 8th grade, can you?). I was lucky enough to play football through college. I've watched the game since I was 10 and love it. I've very secure with my knowledge of the game and would gladly test it anyway you like. But I'm also a Buffalo kid who grew up loving the Bills and having them be a huge part of my life. With all the jokes the city of Buffalo gets, the Bills represent that Buffalo still can be big time. I live for Bills games and tailgating. I go to Boston quite often and wear my Bills gear with pride and only get met with respect. So personally, I'd rather hope for the best for this team that probably means a little to much to me. Obviously, you'd rather be right on a message board. I guess we have different goals in life. Especially about something that happened 5 years ago. Hey Buddy, glad you can man up and admit your extreme love for the Bills sometimes prevents you from being able to evaluate Bills personnel decisions objectively. Can't fault you for that. I share that same love for the Bills – hell, I'd love to have been wrong about Whitner and McCargo but the fact of the matter is that I was infuriated that this inept front office and ownership have no accountability for their decisions and repeatedly insult the intelligence of the very fans who pay their salary. Newsflash: It is possible to be passionate and objective at the same time. After repeatedly taking personal attacks from the likes of you and other homers when the Marv's drafts took place, it's only legitimate to look back on these decisions 5 years later to see how those decisions panned out. And considering you were busy pimping Dusty Dvoracek and his career 31 tackles http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=9659 , I'd probably pipe down a little bit. We've gone over this, my friend. I simply said that the Bears got the better of the trade. Those picks (2nd and 3rd rounders) were far more valuable than McCargo. Even with Dvoracek being a bust, the Bears got an extremely productive player in the 2nd round in Daneal Manning, one of the game's better kick returners and a solid defensive starter. But feel free to continue misinterpreting what I said. In any case, it's good to be back.
folz Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 A look down memory lane...or nightmare alley. I know this has been done before, but I was bored and curious to look at it again after reading the "A little perspective...5 years later" thread. They usually say you can't judge a draft for 3 years...so I decided to look at the drafts from 3 years ago and then going back to the oldest draft from which at least one player is still on the team. So that encompasses 2003-2008. So we are talking, as far as decision making goes, Ralph, Donahoe/Greggo, Donahoe/Mularkey, Marv/Jauron, Brandon/Jauron, and Modrak throughout. 2008 Rnd 1 Leodis McKelvin still have hope for him, has shown a few flashes, but definitely has not lived up to the bill 2 James Hardy Busted as a Bill...no longer with the team 3 Chris Ellis No longer with the team 4 Reggie Corner Another player I thought showed some promise but has disappeared of late 4 Derek Fine No longer with the team 5 Alvin Bowen No longer with the team 6 Xavier Omon No longer with the team 7 Demetrius Bell Jury is still out on how good a LT he can be, but even if he ends up a backup, not bad for the 7th round 7 Steve Johnson Too bad all of our picks weren't 7th rounders this year as that seems to be the only place we did well...Steal! 7 Kennard Cox No longer with the team Except for Stevie and Bell (and possibly Leodis if he can put it all together) this was a dreadful draft...by next year 7 out of 10 draft picks could no longer be with the team 2007 Rnd 1 Marshawn Lynch Traded, no longer with the team...decent not great back with off-field issues 2 Paul Posluszny I'll say solid LB, hopefully still with upside...but not as good as we thought we were getting 3 Trent Edwards Fail...no longer with the team 4 Dwayne Wright No longer with the team 6 John Wendling No longer with the team 7 Derek Schouman No longer with the team 7 C.J. Ah You No longer with the team Wow, this is ugly...only one player left from this draft and even he hasn't quite lived up to expectations 2006 Rnd 1 Donte Whitner Solid player, but not worth where he was drafted...may not be with the team next season 1 John McCargo Somehow he is still on the team, but has shown nothing...trading up to get him really hurt 3 Ashton Youboty I still think he's an excellent player, but injuries really stalled his career...may not be around next year 4 Ko Simpson May have been worth millions (in his own mind), but he is no longer with the team 5 Kyle Williams Love the guy...a steal in the 5th round 5 Brad Butler Good/solid OL, but injuries and career choice took him away from the game 6 Keith Ellison Gotten a lot of playing time over the years... never thought he was as bad as most fans thought...not bad for a 6th rounder but definitely a backup 7 Terrance Pennington No longer with the team 7 Aaron Merz No longer with the team Scary as it looks, this was probably one of our better drafts in this stretch. Williams is a beast, Whitner has been solid, Butler was solid while he was here, ellison got a lot of playing time (for good or bad), Ashton was good when not injured...nothing special (well Kyle maybe) and a couple of busts, but at least we got a lot of starts out of this group 2005 Rnd Name 2 Roscoe Parrish Finally got to show his talent last year before injury...like the guy 3 Kevin Everett We'll all remember Kevin and wish him well for what he went through, but as a player prior to the injury, hadn't clicked 4 Duke Preston No longer with the team 5 Eric King No longer with the team 6 Justin Geisinger No longer with the team 7 Lionel Gates No longer with the team Roscoe's all ya got here and we've gotten about a half season of good play out of him (although that may be on the coaches, not Roscoe) 2004 Rnd 1 Lee Evans Good to very good WR...solid pick 1 J.P. Losman Oops...I like J. P., but can't say anything but he was a bust...especially to have traded up for him 3 Tim Anderson Got some work out of him 4 Tim Euhus Long gone 7 Dylan McFarland No longer with the team 7 Jonathan Smith Fast Freddie has flown Ouch again...only Lee 2003 Rnd 1 Willis McGahee Mercifully gone from the team...never as good as he or the media thought he was 2 Chris Kelsay I know a lot of you don't like him, but he's been a solid guy for a number of years 3 Angelo Crowell Good LB...got a few good seasons from him...then injuries 4 Terrence McGee Has sured up one CB spot for the better part of a decade, but seems to be slowing down 4 Sam Aiken Good ST player...never hit as a wideout...no longer with the team 5 Ben Sobieski No longer with the team 6 Lauvale Sape No longer with the team 7 Mario Haggan No longer with the team Kelsay and McGee (and Aiken on ST) were the only guys we got solid production from for a number of years, Crowell was solid while he played, McGahee was another Donahoe disaster And of course, the year prior to this (2002) was the Mike Williams pick. Wow, this was actually a lot worse than I even thought it would be. 6 Drafts, 46 players selected, only 14 still with the team and by next season there may only be 9. And these guys are all like 24 to 30 years old...should be in the prime of their careers (if they had been good picks/players). And it's not like the guys no longer with the team have gone on to play great for someone else or anything. Out of all of those picks, the only ones of value (or possible value) have been maybe Kelsay, McGee, Lee, Kyle, Donte, Roscoe, Crowell, Ellison, Butler, Poz, Marshawn, Stevie, Bell, Leodis. That's 13 of 46 and I'm sure we could all debate (and have) how good each of them actually are. But those are the best players we drafted over that 6 year stretch. How many could be considered studs or stars, or excellent, or at least very good? Maybe Lee (had some real good seasons but hasn't been consistent over his career), Kyle Williams, Stevie (looks like it could happen). That's it...kind of 3 out of 46 (or 6.5%). I figured I would conclude that the Mike Williams, McGahee, Losman, McCargo mistakes (high picks wasted, picks wasted trading up) would have really been our downfall...but those wouldn't have seemed as big of gaffes as they were if we had been hitting on a number of our other picks...but we struck out on about 72% of our picks over that span (and that's if you're counting all 13 of the players I listed above not striking out). It's amazing we were even able to average 7 wins a season over that stretch and not be 2-14 every year. C'mon Buddy...build us a team, please...this is just pathetic. Haven't we suffered enough? Go Bills!
T master Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Good post but i think some of those players where given the ax a bit prematurely . Like Chris Ellis last year was doing really well & got cut go figure , Derek Fine not real bad another head scratcher to me . Xavier Omon ? good depth player , John Wendling good ST player ,Mario Haagan is still playing . Like i said i think some of these decisions to let these guys go may have been a bit of a hair trigger response . Then throw in guys like Jim Leonard , Coy Wire & a few others and things may be a bit better you never know !!
Buffalo Barbarian Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Ugh, thanks just what I needed a swift kick in the nuts. Nice work though
Glory Bound Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Eye popping! Add to the mix a slew of mediocre coaches during this stretch, & it sure explains why we're picking #3 this yr. Supposedly, Buddy's forte is evaluating talent & building teams. Time will tell if that's a myth.
Bill from NYC Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Guys taken by Levy/DJ in the first round were all driven by need, Nix makes a statement with Spiller that he's taking the bpa as they see it because he certainly wasn't a need. In the past that could have meant Nix would have considered Ngata even though he wasn't a Tampa 2 DT because maybe they thought he was the best player available. With Levy/DJ if a player didn't match the need he wasn't considered. I disagree. Levy/Jauron were driven by a philosophy that defensive backs and special teams were the most important phases of football. Look if you will at the 2006 draft. They shunned quarterbacks, offensive tackles, and the best DT in the draft to take 3 defensive backs with their first 4 picks, and even traded away an early 3rd to achieve this mess. As for the running back selections, I think that they had Ralph's signature on them in order to sell tickets, with Spiller being a glaring example. Jmo.
CSBill Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) I couldn't agree more. The single biggest issue with the Bills is our draft picks don't develop into viable starters. I'm not 100% sure if the reason has been poor draft picks, or the coaches lack of development skills. Either way it's been atrocious. But I also know that our past doesn't have anything to do with Nix and Gailey. I trust them. Most have said we need to take a defensive player with the #3 pick overall or it will be sending the message we're turning our back on our biggest need - defense. But I say what about Troup, Carrington, Batten, and Moats? Have we become so numb that we no longer expect our 2nd year draft picks to get better and contribute? Do we automatically think Nix and Gailey are as inept as their predecessors? While I certainly understand the skepticism, lets see what kind of team these guys build. All I know is the Bills were getting nearly painful to watch, until last year. We only won 4 games and it was better football than I've seen in the previous 10 years. What hurts the most is that none of these guys even developed into regular staters, not talking stars, but first round picks that can't get in the game . . . why have the Bills been so bad? you need to look no further than their inept first round drafting over the past ten years . . . let's pray that trend reverses soon, very soon! Edited April 13, 2011 by CSBill
Kevin Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 The Bills are ass-backward ass hats. They take a guy because they are worried about another team taking him because another safety went already? They say how valuable a safety who can cover is – then draft one that cant. Then they reach for a NG who is quick? All the while passing over a 350# behemoth who is quick. The Bills would get from Buffalo to California by flying East But they would still get there.
silvermike Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 While it's certainly hard to imagine that Nix will end up worse than Jauron at IDing talent, I'm forced to withhold judgment until I actually see him make a few great draft picks. He's got one solid hit so far in Arthur Moats, with significant question marks remaining for all other selections. That doesn't mean that he won't be vindicated, but that he hasn't been proven right *yet*. Once the labor situation is resolved, it will be time for his choices to prove themselves.
KD in CA Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 The sad part is, 2006 could have been a great draft if they had just made the common sense pick of Ngata and stayed put in round 2 to pick one of the multiple pro bowlers that went in that round. Just goes to show again, you absolutely can not afford to f--- up your first round picks.
Thoner7 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 And people try and tell me I couldn’t do better lol. A $10 draft magazine and walterfootball rankings could do better. hahahahaha. I only expect it to get worse with Miller and Locker being reported in rounds 1 and 2
Thoner7 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I think OBD looked at spiller as the same type of player as Jamaal charles and it seems everyone at obd was convinced he was a no brainer. I guess it's difficult to fathom, but not every player starts off great. Since I've been in pittsburgh I'm innundated (sp) with their picks, but many have started slowly. Troy P was being talked about as not worth the pick after his first year; Timmons (1st round) didn't play while Woodley (2nd) started from the beginning; Ziggy Hood didn't play much in his first year either, and hasn't played much until Aaron Smith got hurt. Point being you take the biggest difference maker you can. I'm not saying it will always work out, but I don't think it was a reach to take Spiller at that spot. The difference is that while those late-first round picks were riding the pine, the Steelers were winning Superbowls. The Bills top 10 picks havent been able to play on the worst team in the league. Timmons, Woodley, Hood, they would have been our best players the past few years, and they barely started on the Steelers.
st. pete gogolak Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I defy any Bills fan to actually read the article and not gag. It confirms the monstrosity that was Marv Levy - GM. My two favorite quotes from the article. "Defensive tackle was a glaring need (explaining decision to move up to take McCargo)." Yah think? Damn right, defensive tackle was a glaring need. It was THE NEED for that team and yet, you pass up not one (Ngata who turns into an all-pro) but two (Bunkley who's actually turned into a very solid pro) quality DT's. The other quote concerned trading down and basically saying it wasn't worth an extra fourth to trade down and miss out on Whitner. Really, a fourth? Denver wanted Cutler and traded a first and a medium high second to move up. We EASILY could have made that deal.
yungmack Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I agree with the poster that wondered why Modrak still has a job. Also, Ralph should back off. It is his sandbox, but time shows he isn't good at this. I say let Nix and Gailey work it out. I wouldnt even let Modrak grade them. Modrak might have been the front man for the draft pick, but do you really believe he was the guy who actually made the pick? I seriously doubt that.
KOKBILLS Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 The Bills are ass-backward ass hats. They take a guy because they are worried about another team taking him because another safety went already? They say how valuable a safety who can cover is – then draft one that cant. Then they reach for a NG who is quick? All the while passing over a 350# behemoth who is quick. The Bills would get from Buffalo to California by flying East They focused on one guy...the dead-wrong guy...and that KILLED them in that Draft... The Whitner Pick came KNOWING they needed a DT but they were SO enamoured with Whitner they passed on the All-World DT...Then they focused on McCargo because, supposedly, there was this HUGE gap between him and the next DT available...Well...The next DT taken was Gabe Watson at #107...Watson is no game-changer, but he has doubled McCargo's Tackle Total since 06...The next DT after that? Domata Peko who went #123 overall to Cincy, has totaled over 200 Tackles since 06 and has yet to be inactive a single game...The next DT taken? Do you really want to know? The Giants Barry Cofield went #124 overall...He has played every game but one since his Rookie Season, anchored the Giants D-Line, and came away with 10.5 Sacks in that time... The Bills were right afterall...There was a HUGE gap between McCargo an the rest of the DT's...They just got it backwards...
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