John from Riverside Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 Interesting. Your plan would require someone other than Miller to play OLB and DE or it would require a substitution to bring an actual DE on the field. Quinn, at 265 not 260, IS a bit light at that position but could certainly be capable enough. This has sort of been part of my point about Miller being too small to fill the role I envisioned. I'm hoping we draft a guy that can play OLB and DE and we could run 3-4 and 4-3 schemes with the same personnel. PD, I am confused by this post. There would not be a substitution of Miller at any point because he would always be playing his natural position of LB. There is a reason why the analysts are saying that Miller is the best 3-4 linebacker in this draft while Quinn is being projected form towards a 4-3.
Hanoverbills Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) If you look back when DeMarcus Ware was drafted , he was about 250 lbs. and now is 262 lbs. And when Shawne Merriman was drafted he was at 249 lbs. and now he is 265 lbs. Miller could play the will linbacker, and then when he puts on weight we could move him to sam linebacker. Will linebacker is were James Harrison plays at 240 lbs , Clay Matthews at 250 lbs, Lance Briggs at 240 lbs, Elvis Dumervil plays at 248 lbs, Keith Rivers 240 lbs and Leroy Hill 238 lbs play. They are all outside linebackers. Know if these linebackers would want to come play at Buffalo, would you guys be happy or mad if they would sign one of these linebackers? They are all to 250 lbs and under. And I know that Patrick Willis plays middle linebacker, but they still have centers and guards coming at them on running plays and still have to blitz sometimes. Edited April 9, 2011 by Hanoverbills
PDaDdy Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) PD, I am confused by this post. There would not be a substitution of Miller at any point because he would always be playing his natural position of LB. There is a reason why the analysts are saying that Miller is the best 3-4 linebacker in this draft while Quinn is being projected form towards a 4-3. Right. Miller wouldn't HAVE to be replaced or shift to DE but someone else would. If we want to be able to shift between 3-4 and the 4-3 with the existing players on field some LB has to play DE. I was looking for the person that we draft at #3 to be versatile enough to play that role. If you look back when DeMarcus Ware was drafted , he was about 250 lbs. and now is 262 lbs. And when Shawne Merriman was drafted he was at 249 lbs. and now he is 265 lbs. Miller could play the will linbacker, and then when he puts on weight we could move him to sam linebacker. Will linebacker is were James Harrison plays at 240 lbs , Clay Matthews at 250 lbs, Lance Briggs at 240 lbs, Elvis Dumervil plays at 248 lbs, Keith Rivers 240 lbs and Leroy Hill 238 lbs play. They are all outside linebackers. Know if these linebackers would want to come play at Buffalo, would you guys be happy or mad if they would sign one of these linebackers? They are all to 250 lbs and under. And I know that Patrick Willis plays middle linebacker, but they still have centers and guards coming at them on running plays and still have to blitz sometimes. Not to be the jerk to tell someone to read the thread before posting but some of those names and this concept was brought up before. Some of the guys you mention are 4-3 OLB which is a different player than a 3-4 OLB. As another poster said before that OLB needs to be almost as big as a 4-3 DE. This is especially important for teams, a lot more than you think, that run a 3-4 4-3 hybrid. Apples and Oranges. Also stating that some small guys can succeed some how as proof that all small guys can succeed is wrong. Throwing out these few examples doesn't prove anything positive or negative about Miller. What we do know is that the NFL is a big game for big people. Smaller guys have to overcome their lack of size. I would prefer my #3 pick to have as few obstacles to overcome as possible. Lastly we have also mentioned that all of those guys are pass rush specialists. Our biggest problem by far not just for the defense but for the team is that we can't stop the run. We are TERRIBLE at stopping the run. We need pass rushing pressure but who passes when you can run against us for 4.8 yds/carry? My hope would be to get a guy that is better suited physically to play 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE, can rush the passer AND defend the run. I don't think Miller will be that guy. I think a guy like Quinn could be. Edited April 9, 2011 by PDaDdy
Hanoverbills Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) Right. Miller wouldn't HAVE to be replaced or shift to DE but someone else would. If we want to be able to shift between 3-4 and the 4-3 with the existing players on field some LB has to play DE. I was looking for the person that we draft at #3 to be versatile enough to play that role. Not to be the jerk to tell someone to read the thread before posting but some of those names and this concept was brought up before. Some of the guys you mention are 4-3 OLB which is a different player than a 3-4 OLB. As another poster said before that OLB needs to be almost as big as a 4-3 DE. This is especially important for teams, a lot more than you think, that run a 3-4 4-3 hybrid. Apples and Oranges. Also stating that some small guys can succeed some how as proof that all small guys can succeed is wrong. Throwing out these few examples doesn't prove anything positive or negative about Miller. What we do know is that the NFL is a big game for big people. Smaller guys have to overcome their lack of size. I would prefer my #3 pick to have as few obstacles to overcome as possible. Lastly we have also mentioned that all of those guys are pass rush specialists. Our biggest problem by far not just for the defense but for the team is that we can't stop the run. We are TERRIBLE at stopping the run. We need pass rushing pressure but who passes when you can run against us for 4.8 yds/carry? My hope would be to get a guy that is better suited physically to play 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE, can rush the passer AND defend the run. I don't think Miller will be that guy. I think a guy like Quinn could be. Aaron Schobel was about 246 lbs when he played DE and played the run very good ,yes he played DL . Some guys are small and can still be a good againts the run regardless of position he plays. Kyle Williams is considered small for a nose tackle but plays with alot of heart. A guy right out of college can get bigger in the pros like Ware who was 250 when out of college and now 260 lbs. Not everybody is Maybin. Robrt Quinn could be another Vernon Gholston. Is he good againts the run? Just because he is bigger ,doesn't mean he is better againts the run. Edited April 10, 2011 by Hanoverbills
NewEra Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 Interesting. Your plan would require someone other than Miller to play OLB and DE or it would require a substitution to bring an actual DE on the field. Quinn, at 265 not 260, IS a bit light at that position but could certainly be capable enough. This has sort of been part of my point about Miller being too small to fill the role I envisioned. I'm hoping we draft a guy that can play OLB and DE and we could run 3-4 and 4-3 schemes with the same personnel. Not sure if I read your post right.... My plan, if we drafted miller, would be for him to play OLB in the 3-4 and the 4-3. If injuries hit our LB corps and somehow we needed him to fill in elsewhere, I'd be happy with him playing ILB as well, although that wouldn't be him primary position. Our 4-3 DL would consist of carrington, williams, troupe, edwards. Id also like to draft a DL somewhere along the lines, preferably the 2nd or 3rd round, or acquire one in FA. We need more bodies up front imo. If we drafted Quinn, he'd be playing 3-4 olb and 4-3 DE.
1B4IDie Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) My bad then sir. There's sobmany miller haters out there it's hard to remember exactly who says what. My apologies. I like Cam Jordan too. As well as Miller, Quinn, Dareus, Fairley newton and gabbert (not because Im convinced they are great QBs, simply because I think they have a chance to be gears QBs. I think we need a great QB more than anything) Actually there are not many Miller Haters either. Just people that don't think an undersized speed rusher is the best use of the #3 overall pick. I hope Miller has a long and healthy career, maybe in the NFC West. I'm glad you spend your free time "defending" Miller from "haters" when you're not even sold on him at #3 either. Instead of working together on trying to reach some consensus on what to do with #3 overall. (not that I think this year that will ever happen but Miller will never be the consensus fan pick. ) Edited April 10, 2011 by Why So Serious?
NewEra Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 Actually there are not many Miller Haters either. Just people that don't think an undersized speed rusher is the best use of the #3 overall pick. I hope Miller has a long and healthy career, maybe in the NFC West. I'm glad you spend your free time "defending" Miller from "haters" when you're not even sold on him at #3 either. Instead of working together on trying to reach some consensus on what to do with #3 overall. (not that I think this year that will ever happen but Miller will never be the consensus fan pick. ) In the last 10 years, I've been "sold" on 2 players, Ngata and Suh. I'm not sold on anyone this year. Say what you may, I've read several peoples posts that, to me, would solidify them as "haters". Maybe you don't hate him, but there's several on this board that do. I don't understand the procedure of "trying to reach some consensus of who we should draft at 3". It's a message board. We are discussing who we like and who we don't like. That's what I'm doing. Any consensus is useless IMO, it means absolutely nothing. I'm trying to enjoy the debate. Have fun reaching a consensus that accomplishes nothing. I'll enjoy debating.
1B4IDie Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 In the last 10 years, I've been "sold" on 2 players, Ngata and Suh. I'm not sold on anyone this year. Say what you may, I've read several peoples posts that, to me, would solidify them as "haters". Maybe you don't hate him, but there's several on this board that do. I don't understand the procedure of "trying to reach some consensus of who we should draft at 3". It's a message board. We are discussing who we like and who we don't like. That's what I'm doing. Any consensus is useless IMO, it means absolutely nothing. I'm trying to enjoy the debate. Have fun reaching a consensus that accomplishes nothing. I'll enjoy debating. I hear you're a Master debater.
NewEra Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) I hear you're a Master debater. You're pretty good yourself Edited April 11, 2011 by NewEra
John from Riverside Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 Right. Miller wouldn't HAVE to be replaced or shift to DE but someone else would. If we want to be able to shift between 3-4 and the 4-3 with the existing players on field some LB has to play DE. I was looking for the person that we draft at #3 to be versatile enough to play that role. Not to be the jerk to tell someone to read the thread before posting but some of those names and this concept was brought up before. Some of the guys you mention are 4-3 OLB which is a different player than a 3-4 OLB. As another poster said before that OLB needs to be almost as big as a 4-3 DE. This is especially important for teams, a lot more than you think, that run a 3-4 4-3 hybrid. Apples and Oranges. Also stating that some small guys can succeed some how as proof that all small guys can succeed is wrong. Throwing out these few examples doesn't prove anything positive or negative about Miller. What we do know is that the NFL is a big game for big people. Smaller guys have to overcome their lack of size. I would prefer my #3 pick to have as few obstacles to overcome as possible. Lastly we have also mentioned that all of those guys are pass rush specialists. Our biggest problem by far not just for the defense but for the team is that we can't stop the run. We are TERRIBLE at stopping the run. We need pass rushing pressure but who passes when you can run against us for 4.8 yds/carry? My hope would be to get a guy that is better suited physically to play 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE, can rush the passer AND defend the run. I don't think Miller will be that guy. I think a guy like Quinn could be. PA, Probably not the answer you want to hear but - We did in fact sign Kelsay to that extention....as a run stop guy I thought he did OK...not great....but ok. - I truly believe that the two biggest things that hurt our run defense was a. Marcus Stroud....he was just NOT cutting it as a 3-4 defensive end.....he couldnt set his edge of the field and it showed a lot.....I truly believe that by the end of the year Carrington was outplaying him. Carrington is a BEAST against the run when he finally got on the field......and Chan knows it that is why he made the comments about wanting to see what he has in his younger guys of Carrington and Troupe. We did in fact draft those guys high and we have to give them a chance to develop. b. Lets keep in mind that we were in our 1st year of a 3-4......there were going to be some growing pains there. c. I TRULY beleive that the stash is going to have more of a say in this years defense.....and much like brining in Chan for the offense I expect the defense to improve just under this guys watch alone. This was a VERY good pickup. Von Miller is the type of guy I think Dave W. would make extreme use out of.
Ramius Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 Some info on Quinn, per Fat Peter's MMQB column. Robert Quinn, the highly regarded defensive end from North Carolina, is proving to be a tough study for many teams. He hasn't played football in 16 months, having been suspended for taking improper benefits at North Carolina and being banned for the entire 2010 season. He had a benign brain tumor in high school. Those two elements would make it tough enough. Add this one: He fattened up his sack totals -- 11 in 13 games -- against some weak sisters. Quinn's game-by-game sack results: Sacks Foe 3 (twice) Duke (5-7), Virginia (3-9). 2 East Carolina (9-5, Conference USA). 1 Citadel (4-7 Div. I-AA), Georgia Southern (5-6 Div. I-AA), Boston College (8-5). 0 Connecticut (8-5), Georgia Tech (11-3), Florida State (7-6), Virginia Tech (10-3), Miami (Fla.) (9-4), North Carolina State (5-7), Pittsburgh (10-3). Of his 11 sacks, six came in two games against ACC doormats, two more against NCAA Football Championship Subdivision teams with losing records, and three against Bowl Subdivision winning teams. If you pick Quinn -- and Cleveland, at number six, may do so -- he'll be a perfect metaphor for the 2011 draft: High picks in the first round almost all come with a risk. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/04/10/mmqb/index.html#ixzz1JF8G6jZa
PDaDdy Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) PA, Probably not the answer you want to hear but - We did in fact sign Kelsay to that extention....as a run stop guy I thought he did OK...not great....but ok. - I truly believe that the two biggest things that hurt our run defense was a. Marcus Stroud....he was just NOT cutting it as a 3-4 defensive end.....he couldnt set his edge of the field and it showed a lot.....I truly believe that by the end of the year Carrington was outplaying him. Carrington is a BEAST against the run when he finally got on the field......and Chan knows it that is why he made the comments about wanting to see what he has in his younger guys of Carrington and Troupe. We did in fact draft those guys high and we have to give them a chance to develop. b. Lets keep in mind that we were in our 1st year of a 3-4......there were going to be some growing pains there. c. I TRULY beleive that the stash is going to have more of a say in this years defense.....and much like brining in Chan for the offense I expect the defense to improve just under this guys watch alone. This was a VERY good pickup. Von Miller is the type of guy I think Dave W. would make extreme use out of. There are some good points in there. I am not at all sold on Kelsay holding the edge and being a force in the run game and I don't think Stroud was that bad but he was not an asset in any way shape or form unless he was potentially helping to draw attention away from Williams to allow him to do his thing. I don't know that there will be too much improvement by way of addition by subtraction with Stroud. We have so far to go I don't think we have anyone on the roster that is that much better than Stroud. If they were I would have expected them to start last year if Stroud was so bad. Good points on the talent we already have and how we should make better use of them with another year in the system and the stash helping out on defense. I'm not saying Von Miller couldn't be a great help to this team I just feel that Quinn could be a bigger help and without question I think he will hold up against the run better than Miller likely will. We were DFL in run defense last year and adding a pass rush specialist won't help with that problem. Currently I rank Miller at about #4 with Newton, Darius and Quinn ahead of him so honestly I'm splitting hairs. ** As a note. I still stand by my statement that Shawn Merriman will not play a down for the Bills or at the very best will be found to be ineffective and released. Merriman hasn't done a damn thing in 3 or so years I think since the performance enhancing issues and injuries. I think the lights are out for good. Edited April 11, 2011 by PDaDdy
NewEra Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 There are some good points in there. I am not at all sold on Kelsay holding the edge and being a force in the run game and I don't think Stroud was that bad but he was not an asset in any way shape or form unless he was potentially helping to draw attention away from Williams to allow him to do his thing. Good points on the talent we already have and how we should make better use of them with another year in the system and the stash helping out on defense. I'm not saying Von Miller couldn't be a great help to this team I just feel that Quinn could be a bigger help and without question I think he will hold up against the run better than Miller likely will. We were DFL in run defense last year and adding a pass rush specialist won't help with that problem. Currently I rank Miller at about #4 with Newton, Darius and Quinn ahead of him so honestly I'm splitting hairs. I don't know that there will be too much improvement by way of addition by subtraction with Stroud. We have so far to go I don't think we have anyone on the roster that is that much better than Stroud. If they were I would have expected them to start last year if Stroud was so bad. ** As a note. I still stand by my statement that Shawn Merriman will not play a down for the Bills or at the very best will be found to be ineffective and released. Merriman hasn't done a damn thing in 3 or so years I think since the performance enhancing issues and injuries. I think the lights are out for good. Well put sir, but a couple of comments are off base, to a degree IMO. Stroud was awful last year. Make no mistake about it. I was a BIG fan of his for how he carried himself on/off the field and not crying about the shift to 3-4 DE, bit he was a big part of our inability to stop the run. I thought carrington was much better as a pass rusher as well as containment vs the run. Im happy with him going forward and I think having him out there instead of stroud will help us stopping the run. Also, I'm not a fan of Kelsey overall. He was painful to watch in coverage, but I thought he did a fair job vs the run. There were times where he looked awful for sure, but there were times where did his job and played the run well. As for drafting Quinn vs Miller, I understand why you would rather draft Quinn due to his size and Millers lack of it. I also think Wanny will bring the best out of any LB we draft, I love the move. It'll be interesting to see how long the edwards' leash is next year considering we have someone with his knowledge on board. The only negative, if there is one, would be that he is a 4-3 guy (regardless of what some people on this board think) and if we were to let Edwards go, I'd be concerned that we would be going back to a 4-3. I like the 3-4 defense more, but Wanny and the current players we have on board make a move back to the 4-3 more realistic IMO (yes, I know we play both ATM).
1billsfan Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 Some info on Quinn, per Fat Peter's MMQB column. He was a sophmore. What was Von Miller's sophmore sack total? 3.5
NewEra Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 He was a sophmore. What was Von Miller's sophmore sack total? 3.5 What was Clay Matthews sack total his sophomore year? How about his junior or senior year for that matter? Another totally irrelevant post by 1billsfan. Big shock.
1billsfan Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) What was Clay Matthews sack total his sophomore year? How about his junior or senior year for that matter? Another totally irrelevant post by 1billsfan. Big shock. Talk about irrelevant, we're projecting two unknown players. Not the very well known NFL star player Clay Matthews. This belittling of Quinn's sophmore stats is ridiculous considering Miller didn't do anything his sophmore year. We're trying to project who the great player will be, and by doing so you need to take into account that this was his sophmore year, not senior. Edited April 11, 2011 by 1billsfan
thebandit27 Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) He was a sophmore. What was Von Miller's sophmore sack total? 3.5 It's totally irrelevant, since Miller didn't play his last down of college football as a Sophomore; Quinn did. Any comparison will be completely useless in trying to promote Quinn over Miller, because in all measurable facets, Miller outperformed Quinn. Talk about irrelevant, we're projecting two unknown players. Not the very well known NFL star player Clay Matthews. This belittling of Quinn's sophmore stats is ridiculous considering Miller didn't do anything his sophmore year. We're trying to project who the great player will be, and by doing so you need to take into account that this was his sophmore year, not senior. Again though, he hasn't played a down since then, so for both players we're projecting based off of their last year (or in Miller's case years) of competitive football. The fact that it's significantly more difficult to project Quinn's NFL-transition supports the stance that he's a greater risk than Miller. Again, it's not that I don't like Quinn, I just think that there are safer picks with equal (or greater) upside. Edited April 11, 2011 by thebandit27
DrDawkinstein Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 It's totally irrelevant, since Miller didn't play his last down of college football as a Sophomore; Quinn did. Any comparison will be completely useless in trying to promote Quinn over Miller, because in all measurable facets, Miller outperformed Quinn. Again though, he hasn't played a down since then, so for both players we're projecting based off of their last year (or in Miller's case years) of competitive football. or in other words: "Your stats dont fit my argument like my stats do, so what you're saying doesnt matter" I dont like arguing stats anyways because anyone with half a brain can twist any stat to fit their argument. I will say that, in the discussion at hand, 1billsfan bringing up their sophomore seasons IS relevant. Since it's the last season they could be compared on a 1:1 basis.
1billsfan Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 or in other words: "Your stats dont fit my argument like my stats do, so what you're saying doesnt matter" I dont like arguing stats anyways because anyone with half a brain can twist any stat to fit their argument. I will say that, in the discussion at hand, 1billsfan bringing up their sophomore seasons IS relevant. Since it's the last season they could be compared on a 1:1 basis. I was annoyed that King adds this caveat to downgrade his stats in his piece, but fails to add the other important one.
John from Riverside Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 There are some good points in there. I am not at all sold on Kelsay holding the edge and being a force in the run game and I don't think Stroud was that bad but he was not an asset in any way shape or form unless he was potentially helping to draw attention away from Williams to allow him to do his thing. I don't know that there will be too much improvement by way of addition by subtraction with Stroud. We have so far to go I don't think we have anyone on the roster that is that much better than Stroud. If they were I would have expected them to start last year if Stroud was so bad. Good points on the talent we already have and how we should make better use of them with another year in the system and the stash helping out on defense. I'm not saying Von Miller couldn't be a great help to this team I just feel that Quinn could be a bigger help and without question I think he will hold up against the run better than Miller likely will. We were DFL in run defense last year and adding a pass rush specialist won't help with that problem. Currently I rank Miller at about #4 with Newton, Darius and Quinn ahead of him so honestly I'm splitting hairs. ** As a note. I still stand by my statement that Shawn Merriman will not play a down for the Bills or at the very best will be found to be ineffective and released. Merriman hasn't done a damn thing in 3 or so years I think since the performance enhancing issues and injuries. I think the lights are out for good. If we drafted Quinn I would support it cuz I love what he might bring but some things concern me - His sacks dont come against the best competition - He has the benign tumor.....medical issues before he even gets started always bother me - And of course he didn't play any football last year I know that a lot of people are down on Von Miller due to lack of you tube hits stopping the run......but one thing the kid does well is tackle....when he gets his hands on people they dont get away very often. I remember watching him at the combine with my son (who is a linebacker) and gawking at how large this kids lower body is......this is where your tackling power, burst, and short area quickness are generated and in that area Von Miller is a genetic freak.
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