Kiper Mock v4.0

[DrDawkinstein]

I once saw Joe Washington plant Lawrence Taylor on his ass. I'm not sure, but I don't THINK Taylor was ever labeled as a guy who couldn't beat little RBs one on one.

 

In those same videos where Miller is getting blocked by a TE, he is running stunts, beating OTs with his hands, setting an edge, etc.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

On what specific play(s) does he do that? Feel free to identify it by the time of the video (any video youd like for that matter). I'll check it out right now.

 

I'll start one.. 2nd play on the Nebraska video. He has outside containment. TE chips him inside when he bites on the fake and the play bounces out for a big gain.

Edited April 12, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[John from Riverside]

First off, you are comparing Maybins PRO performance, with Miller's college performance. Not to take this thread down this road again, but that is not a valid comparison.

 

Secondly, the plays Im speaking of are from the Nebraska tape where they ran right at him, around him, and through him for first downs and big gains. They are there on the tape. While we can differ about our general opinions, we can not argue what is on the tape. Watch the Nebraska tape, lets talk about the run plays in the first 1:00 minute of the clip... (easiest place to find it is on the first page of the pinned thread)

 

He didnt need to rush the QB, he needed to shed his (college TE) block, and make a tackle. But didnt. Not once that Ive seen on those types of run plays.

 

I'm not questioning his outside pass rushing ability. Im questioning EVERYTHING else as he has not proven capable of any of it.

 

I will answer the rest of your questions later but all we HAVE is Millers college performance based against Maybins pro performance......but it seems to me that Maybin did this exact same thing when he was in college?

 

On what specific play(s) does he do that? Feel free to identify it by the time of the video (any video youd like for that matter). I'll check it out right now.

 

I'll start one.. 2nd play on the Nebraska video. He has outside containment. TE chips him inside when he bites on the fake and the play bounces out for a big gain.

 

 

Are you expecting every play of our 3rd round pick to be perfect?

 

It is definately time to trade out of that pick then.....because there is not a player available in this draft that didn't have some bad plays in college.

[NewEra]

Don't you guys know, that Nebraska tape > every other game he played in his career. Geez

 

Did anyone see tiger woods get beat by a 26 year old playing Augusta for the 2nd time? Its not relevant I know. 1 game, 1 round of golf two totally different things. 2 different great athletes getting beat up on by inferior opponents. They have nothing to do with each other. Not even sure why i posted this because it's so irrelevant.

[DrDawkinstein]

I will answer the rest of your questions later but all we HAVE is Millers college performance based against Maybins pro performance......but it seems to me that Maybin did this exact same thing when he was in college?

 

No we have Maybin's college career (albeit short) to compare the way they both played in college. We do NOT have any of Miller's Pro career.

 

Are you expecting every play of our 3rd round pick to be perfect?

 

It is definately time to trade out of that pick then.....because there is not a player available in this draft that didn't have some bad plays in college.

 

Not every play as perfect, but almost every play. We're talking about the #3 overall pick. All Im asking for is proof that he can play stout VS the run. That is all. I understand that there may be some "bad" plays in there, but all Ive seen to this point are bad plays against the run. There is actual proof he CANT play against the run.

 

Im hoping you, as a supporter and believer, can show me evidence that he can play with some minimal consistency against the run. Otherwise, what you are suggesting is that we use the best pick this team has had in 20+ years on a one dimensional player.

 

A LB who cant play the run. Its like taking a QB who cant throw a pass longer than 30 yards. Or a WR who only goes deep. Or a OL who can only run block but not pass block.

 

At #3 OVERALL they need to be a fairly complete player. Im not expecting them to be NFL-ready, but they should have shown all facets of the game over their college career, if they are in fact so dominating.

[K-9]

On what specific play(s) does he do that? Feel free to identify it by the time of the video (any video youd like for that matter). I'll check it out right now.

 

I'll start one.. 2nd play on the Nebraska video. He has outside containment. TE chips him inside when he bites on the fake and the play bounces out for a big gain.

 

There are just so many videos highlighting what everyone knows he does best that I deliberately tried to stay away from them. The second link is the Nebraska tape that his detractors have used to label him as someone who plays "small." Admittedly, the Nebraska game highlights are among his worst. And the play you highlight is a good example of his losing containment. And still, even from that tape, he was a constant source of disruption for Nebraska's O.

 

This link is from several games over his career. I've tried to show plays where he's doing things against run and pass that many around here claim he just doesn't do. We can fill a reel of him just getting after the passer so I didn't want to go there. But he's beating Ts, Rb, and TEs at various times to apply that pressure.

 

 

1:06 excellent recognition and great speed to the pass in the flat

1:13 nice goal line run defense

1:29 nice goal line run defense

1:36 nice run defense

2:00 nice pass defense

2:42 nice hit in the secondary

2:55 nice ball skills

 

It's easy to see why his college coaches devised a defense around his talents and sent him after the passer so often. He has very rare explosion. These highlight packages, as I said, are mostly comprised of clips showing what everybody already knows about him. Yes, he runs himself out of position at times (I can show clips of Quinn doing the same thing). Yes, he gets handled one on one at times by smaller guys (happens to many good players at times). But without the benefit of coaches tape and/or analysis of entire games we have to be careful of doing our analysis in a vacuum. I'm just not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited April 12, 2011 by K-9

[DrDawkinstein]

Don't you guys know, that Nebraska tape > every other game he played in his career. Geez

 

Did anyone see tiger woods get beat by a 26 year old playing Augusta for the 2nd time? Its not relevant I know. 1 game, 1 round of golf two totally different things. 2 different great athletes getting beat up on by inferior opponents. They have nothing to do with each other. Not even sure why i posted this because it's so irrelevant.

 

So instead of avoiding my challege, why dont you SHOW ME some footage of him stopping the run? Im more than willing to change my tune. I always keep an open mind around here. But the more I push, the less Im getting out of the pro-Miller camp.

 

I am simply asking ANYONE to come up with SOME (a handful, a few, a couple, ONE) plays where he played stout against the run. I havent seen it yet, and so far none of you have provided it yet.

 

I'll wait.....

 

 

Edit: Thank You!! K-9. Ill check this out now.

Edited April 12, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[K-9]

On what specific play(s) does he do that? Feel free to identify it by the time of the video (any video youd like for that matter). I'll check it out right now.

 

I'll start one.. 2nd play on the Nebraska video. He has outside containment. TE chips him inside when he bites on the fake and the play bounces out for a big gain.

 

I had to post in two links because the BB wouldn't let me post additional media links in one post.

 

Here's that Nebraska game and you're right, he has bad discipline on that play where he does have outside containment. Yet, he was a constant source of disruption to the Nebraska O just by going from this video.

 

 

 

1:54 does a good job

2:11 sets an edge

2:28 comes down LOS nicely to get in on the play

2:36 nice middle blitz

2:55 beats LT/RB double team

 

GO BILLS

[John from Riverside]

Thanks for adding this K-9.....better then I would have been able to do

 

I would also like to point out that we dont know what the defensive scheme was on certain plays.......for instance there are times when a DC will send a bandit on a edge outside rush by design with the understanding that they are TRYING to bait a offense into trying to run underneath it....and another defender is supposed to fill that area responsibility. It could very well have been a situation where the 2nd defender did not cover his area of responsibity well enough. The idea being that that every Von is gonna get the QB or the other defender is gonna make that tackle.

 

And...I think that K-9 did an excellent job of staying away from the obvious strengths in Von Millers game....which above all is is to make QB's nervous....pull down the ball and not go downfield with it....make them move around in the pocket.....etc

 

So basically K-9 has cut most of Von's superiority out of his arguement....yet was still able to find positives.

[1B4IDie]

I had to post in two links because the BB wouldn't let me post additional media links in one post.

 

Here's that Nebraska game and you're right, he has bad discipline on that play where he does have outside containment. Yet, he was a constant source of disruption to the Nebraska O just by going from this video.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=SkDdpgRn7Pk&feature=related

 

 

1:54 does a good job

2:11 sets an edge

2:28 comes down LOS nicely to get in on the play

2:36 nice middle blitz

2:55 beats LT/RB double team

 

GO BILLS

 

This what I find amazing:

 

You watched those 5 plays and thought, "The Bills should draft this guy #3 overall"?

[DrDawkinstein]

Thanks for adding this K-9.....better then I would have been able to do

 

I would also like to point out that we dont know what the defensive scheme was on certain plays.......for instance there are times when a DC will send a bandit on a edge outside rush by design with the understanding that they are TRYING to bait a offense into trying to run underneath it....and another defender is supposed to fill that area responsibility. It could very well have been a situation where the 2nd defender did not cover his area of responsibity well enough. The idea being that that every Von is gonna get the QB or the other defender is gonna make that tackle.

 

And...I think that K-9 did an excellent job of staying away from the obvious strengths in Von Millers game....which above all is is to make QB's nervous....pull down the ball and not go downfield with it....make them move around in the pocket.....etc

 

So basically K-9 has cut most of Von's superiority out of his arguement....yet was still able to find positives.

 

Again, no one has said he can't rush the passer. The problem, as I see it, is all he can do is rush the passer.

 

I appreciate K-9's effort and am still watching the clips, but so far, when challenged to find clips of Miller playing the run, the pro-Miller camp has come up with 4 plays where he plays the run well. The 2 from the goal line stand against OU, the play at 1:36 of that film, and the play at 2:36 of the Nebraska game.

 

It was a great job by K-9 but Im not giving Miller credit for "setting an edge" when the play was right to him and the RB ended up with a 1st down.

 

Im about to tap out of this thread because frankly, there just isnt enough evidence to convince me that he can be a 3-down, complete player. Not enough to justify using the #3 overall pick on at least.

 

Its my opinion, and Ive tried to keep an open mind about it because Im sure the Bills will pick him (and I will cheer my ass off for him), but I think it's a bad pick. Thats just me.

Edited April 12, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[Adam]

Our entire front 7 needs to be upgraded, but the question is are they allowed to hit the QB or not? If you can't hit the QB who is in the act of throwing, then what use is a pass rush?

 

If you no longer can hit WRs in the act of catching, that will put cover guys at even more of a premium as well.

[K-9]

This what I find amazing:

 

You watched those 5 plays and thought, "The Bills should draft this guy #3 overall"?

 

Way to put words in my mouth and totally miss the point. I was asked to show at least one play of Miller playing the run.

 

Just for the record, I'd rather have Dareus. Should I challenge someone to find at least one play of him running a punt back for a TD?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[1B4IDie]

Way to put words in my mouth and totally miss the point. I was asked to show at least one play of Miller playing the run.

 

Just for the record, I'd rather have Dareus. Should I challenge someone to find at least one play of him running a punt back for a TD?

 

GO BILLS!!!

I'm missing the point?

That's funny.

 

The point is what the Bills should do with #3 overall.

 

Never mind I shouldn't have chimed in.

 

Go back to your Master debating.

[DrDawkinstein]

Way to put words in my mouth and totally miss the point. I was asked to show at least one play of Miller playing the run.

 

Just for the record, I'd rather have Dareus. Should I challenge someone to find at least one play of him running a punt back for a TD?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Agreed that Dareus is my favorite pick as well.

 

None of him blocking punts, not sure he was on the punt coverage team.

 

How about one of him returning an INT for a TD?!?

 

 

 

 

AND he can play the run, AND he can get after the passer. AND he can play in a 4-3 or 3-4. See what Im getting at here. #3 Overall needs to be a complete player.

[K-9]

Again, no one has said he can't rush the passer. The problem, as I see it, is all he can do is rush the passer.

 

I appreciate K-9's effort and am still watching the clips, but so far, when challenged to find clips of Miller playing the run, the pro-Miller camp has come up with 4 plays where he plays the run well. The 2 from the goal line stand against OU, the play at 1:36 of that film, and the play at 2:36 of the Nebraska game.

 

It was a great job by K-9 but Im not giving Miller credit for "setting an edge" when the play was right to him and the RB ended up with a 1st down.

 

Im about to tap out of this thread because frankly, there just isnt enough evidence to convince me that he can be a 3-down, complete player. Not enough to justify using the #3 overall pick on at least.

 

Its my opinion, and Ive tried to keep an open mind about it because Im sure the Bills will pick him (and I will cheer my ass off for him), but I think it's a bad pick. Thats just me.

 

I wasn't trying to change your mind. You challenged someone to find ONE play against the run. I gave you four. Never mind the pass defense everybody says he can't play.

 

As for setting the edge on that play, that's just what he did. It's a good strategy for teams to run right at the opposing teams' best players at times. This particular time they did, Miller set the edge, and the rest of his team did a poor job of pursuit. It happens.

 

I'm sure you'll cheer Miller if the Bills take him. But you're gonna complain yourself hoarse watching him adapt to the pro game in the meantime. There will be little to no tolerance from many around here for ANYONE the Bills draft if he isn't ROY, doesn't go to the Pro Bowl, and isn't named All Pro.

 

These kids don't have a chance around here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'm missing the point?

That's funny.

 

The point is what the Bills should do with #3 overall.

 

Never mind I shouldn't have chimed in.

 

Go back to your Master debating.

 

And yet you just couldn't help yourself. Perhaps if you DID get the point you could have restrained yourself.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[DrDawkinstein]

I wasn't trying to change your mind. You challenged someone to find ONE play against the run. I gave you four. Never mind the pass defense everybody says he can't play.

 

As for setting the edge on that play, that's just what he did. It's a good strategy for teams to run right at the opposing teams' best players at times. This particular time they did, Miller set the edge, and the rest of his team did a poor job of pursuit. It happens.

 

I'm sure you'll cheer Miller if the Bills take him. But you're gonna complain yourself hoarse watching him adapt to the pro game in the meantime. There will be little to no tolerance from many around here for ANYONE the Bills draft if he isn't ROY, doesn't go to the Pro Bowl, and isn't named All Pro.

 

These kids don't have a chance around here.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Understood, and I do appreciate your effort, and it was partly educational as I can now reference these plays if needed.

 

Agreed that no one stands a chance around here. I make a point to not be in the "run him out of town" crowd no matter who the player (ok, except for McGahee, I wouldve driven him to the airport myself if possible).

 

But once he's a Bill, you'll see full support for him from this guy. I may not agree with the pick, but I want to see this team win and will hope they prove me wrong.

 

I guess I have a lot invested in this draft, as it will help me determine if the new regime really is making a difference and changing the culture... or if it's more of the same (Ralph ignorantly calling the shots).

 

IMO, taking a small-playing, speed-rushing OLB with the best pick the franchise has seen in decades, means more of the same. If the team is serious about building a contender, theyll take a DL or QB.

[John from Riverside]

This what I find amazing:

 

You watched those 5 plays and thought, "The Bills should draft this guy #3 overall"?

 

OK not wait JUST a minute.....

 

K-9 was asked to come up with ONE play that says Von Miller can do anything but rush the passer.....and he did that.....not your gonna TURN IT ON HIM?

 

For christ sake what is so hard to understand......VON MILLERS STRENGTHS ARE GETTING AFTER THE PASSER AND CAUSING BACKFIELD DISRUPTION.....the areas he is not strongest in are ONE ON ONE RUN STOPS.......

 

No one is diputing that....stop trying to twist the damn thing.

 

Again, no one has said he can't rush the passer. The problem, as I see it, is all he can do is rush the passer.

 

I appreciate K-9's effort and am still watching the clips, but so far, when challenged to find clips of Miller playing the run, the pro-Miller camp has come up with 4 plays where he plays the run well. The 2 from the goal line stand against OU, the play at 1:36 of that film, and the play at 2:36 of the Nebraska game.

 

It was a great job by K-9 but Im not giving Miller credit for "setting an edge" when the play was right to him and the RB ended up with a 1st down.

 

Im about to tap out of this thread because frankly, there just isnt enough evidence to convince me that he can be a 3-down, complete player. Not enough to justify using the #3 overall pick on at least.

 

Its my opinion, and Ive tried to keep an open mind about it because Im sure the Bills will pick him (and I will cheer my ass off for him), but I think it's a bad pick. Thats just me.

 

 

Im not going to go back to look....but did you not ask for ONE example of Von stopping the run? Or ANY examples? Or something to that affect?

 

K-9 did that.....end of story.

 

I understand that this does not change your mind. Nothing is going to change your mind on this or several others for that matter......

 

Myself? Im a Marcel Darius guy....but he is NOT going to be there for us.....Von is a nice 2nd option.

 

Understood, and I do appreciate your effort, and it was partly educational as I can now reference these plays if needed.

 

Agreed that no one stands a chance around here. I make a point to not be in the "run him out of town" crowd no matter who the player (ok, except for McGahee, I wouldve driven him to the airport myself if possible).

 

But once he's a Bill, you'll see full support for him from this guy. I may not agree with the pick, but I want to see this team win and will hope they prove me wrong.

 

I guess I have a lot invested in this draft, as it will help me determine if the new regime really is making a difference and changing the culture... or if it's more of the same (Ralph ignorantly calling the shots).

 

IMO, taking a small-playing, speed-rushing OLB with the best pick the franchise has seen in decades, means more of the same. If the team is serious about building a contender, theyll take a DL or QB.

 

I have seen the reference "small playing" before...I am actually trying to understand what that means.

 

Is it because Von doesnt take on OT's head on....through them aside....and make a tackle by himself? Is anything other then that consider to be "small playing"

 

SPEED KILLS in the NFL......what you are going to see with this kid is large bodies tying up blockers at the line of scrimage....and he is going to be using that underneath move to decimate QB's.......or you might see him get pushed wide by a OT from time to time but he will actually use his leverage to work his way back to the QB........

 

The guy has superstar written all over him. If he didn't then the respected analysts wouldn't be raving about the guy

[K-9]

Thanks for adding this K-9.....better then I would have been able to do

 

I would also like to point out that we dont know what the defensive scheme was on certain plays.......for instance there are times when a DC will send a bandit on a edge outside rush by design with the understanding that they are TRYING to bait a offense into trying to run underneath it....and another defender is supposed to fill that area responsibility. It could very well have been a situation where the 2nd defender did not cover his area of responsibity well enough. The idea being that that every Von is gonna get the QB or the other defender is gonna make that tackle.

 

And...I think that K-9 did an excellent job of staying away from the obvious strengths in Von Millers game....which above all is is to make QB's nervous....pull down the ball and not go downfield with it....make them move around in the pocket.....etc

 

So basically K-9 has cut most of Von's superiority out of his arguement....yet was still able to find positives.

 

John, I think this is one of the most important aspects and something we really need to be conscious of when looking at these kids on these highlight tapes. Without the context of scheme and play call we can only guess at responsibility most of the time. The coach in me wants to chime in every time but I've refrained from doing that here over the years. In the absence of coaches tape these highlight reels are all we have to go by but they paint a very unrealistic picture at best. I'll just have to put my faith in those that HAVE seen the coaches tape and HAVE conducted interviews with both players and their coaches. I guarantee you that for every positive play on a youtube reel, the pros try to find 5 bad ones.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[John from Riverside]

John, I think this is one of the most important aspects and something we really need to be conscious of when looking at these kids on these highlight tapes. Without the context of scheme and play call we can only guess at responsibility most of the time. The coach in me wants to chime in every time but I've refrained from doing that here over the years. In the absence of coaches tape these highlight reels are all we have to go by but they paint a very unrealistic picture at best. I'll just have to put my faith in those that HAVE seen the coaches tape and HAVE conducted interviews with both players and their coaches. I guarantee you that for every positive play on a youtube reel, the pros try to find 5 bad ones.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I just think that he was used a certain way in college to take advantage of his insane burst and athletism and was not told to "stay at home" and maintain a certain area of responsibility.

 

It makes sense....when you have a player the ability of Von Miller you want him playing in the OTHER TEAMS backfield not at the line of scrimmage diagnosing run.

 

They probably felt that he would have the ability to work his way back to the play because he was so fast.

 

And yes.....the fact that he played at 230 something in college probably had something to do with it to....why have larger players beating on him if you dont need to? Then you are playing to the offenses strengths and not yours.

 

This does NOT mean that he cannot hold up in the NFL.....only that he wasnt used that way in college.

[NewEra]

I just think that he was used a certain way in college to take advantage of his insane burst and athletism and was not told to "stay at home" and maintain a certain area of responsibility.

 

It makes sense....when you have a player the ability of Von Miller you want him playing in the OTHER TEAMS backfield not at the line of scrimmage diagnosing run.

 

They probably felt that he would have the ability to work his way back to the play because he was so fast.

 

And yes.....the fact that he played at 230 something in college probably had something to do with it to....why have larger players beating on him if you dont need to? Then you are playing to the offenses strengths and not yours.

 

This does NOT mean that he cannot hold up in the NFL.....only that he wasnt used that way in college.

That's been my point all along.