Johnny Coli Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post. Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around. And of course, lest we forget- On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite. 17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks. Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel. 161699[/snapback] Uh oh. He's on to us. As a member of the liberal elite, I congratulate you on uncovering our sinister plan to make your children pro-union pro-choice gay-loving commies by ramming hypothesis-based science down their impressionable throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Uh oh. He's on to us. As a member of the liberal elite, I congratulate you on uncovering our sinister plan to make your children pro-union pro-choice gay-loving commies by ramming hypothesis-based science down their impressionable throats. 161757[/snapback] Hey, at least you're honest about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Has anyone considered that a lot of kids don't like math and science, let alone school period, and people don't push them like they used to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Has anyone considered that a lot of kids don't like math and science, let alone school period, and people don't push them like they used to? 161783[/snapback] i believe that was the point of my post...arguing politics is a waste of time as it doesn't even begin to touch on the real problem: we've got our values in the wrong place then again, who's to say that what the other countries are doing is right eh? eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 i believe that was the point of my post...arguing politics is a waste of time as it doesn't even begin to touch on the real problem: we've got our values in the wrong place then again, who's to say that what the other countries are doing is right eh? eh? 161802[/snapback] Sorry, I cheated and didn't read the whole thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 that's ok...i forgive you since i might want to work with you in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too.Multicultural Crap in the Schools 161640[/snapback] No, I don't think so. If you pick up a history book that was written 100 years ago, you would see, as I and MANY other history students have, that it IS oppressively Eurocentric AND does not focus on the broad range of topics required for a TRUE study of our history. I cannot speak for the other disciplines, but in the study of history, we CANNOT afford to be very narrow in our interpretation and presentation of it. Glossing over important figures and events because of the race/gender involved is a precedent that I am glad to see is going away. The age of 'savages' and the narrow focus on the few (England, France, Dutch and Spain) will now include even MORE (Scandanavia, Russia, China/Japan, Africa, wide range of tribes and their conflicts), as it SHOULD BE. Nothing is ever simple in history, and we owe future generations to reveal to them how truly deep and involved our American history is. You may call my view revisionist, but I call it expanding the mind, and becoming more wise and intelligent in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post. Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around. The market will fill the void? You make education seem to be such a definitie quantity that can be put on a supply and demand curve. Education isn't a commodity. Countries all over the world who have successful schools do so because their governments have established fair guidelines, and the schools are properly maintained. There is no glaring disparity between rich school districts and poor school disricts. Our schools have neither of their qualities. Whose fault is that? We share the blame equally as taxpayers with the government because we ALLOW it to happen with our attitudes. FACE IT; we don't value education nearly as high as more successful nations do, and we suffer. Privatizing them won't solve the inherent disrespect education recieves in our society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post. Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around. And of course, lest we forget- On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite. 17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks. Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel. 161699[/snapback] Gee, I don't know, maybe it was that line about how we should "disband public education". Seems to me that would entail closing thousands and thousands of schools. I only wish every Republican politician would run on a platform of disbanding public schools. "the market will fill the void"???? Yeah, the way it did before we had public education in the United States. How exactly would the children of the poor and struggling middle class pay for a private school offered up by the magical, all powerful "market"? Lots of people, many of them working people who play by the rules and do the best they can do not own property and thus do not pay school taxes as it is. Simply dropping public education and returning the taxes to those who pay them would not provide the resources such people would need to pay for a private education. If you want to see what type of educational opportunities the market offers children of those who have enough trouble keeping food on the table and the rent paid, read some history or maybe Dickens. That is the precise "system" that was such a complete and utter failure as well as a virtual apostasy for a supposedly democratic society that led to the establishment of public education as a right to begin with. Here is a short passage on pre-public education in America and the establishment of public schools: "Until the 1840s the education system was highly localized and available only to wealthy people. Reformers who wanted all children to gain the benefits of education opposed this. Prominent among them were Horace Mann in Massachusetts and Henry Barnard in Connecticut. Mann started the publication of the Common School Journal, which took the educational issues to the public. The common-school reformers argued for the case on the belief that common schooling could create good citizens, unite society and prevent crime and poverty. As a result of their efforts, free public education at the elementary level was available for all American children by the end of the 19th century. Massachusetts passed the first compulsory school attendance laws in 1852, followed by New York in 1853. By 1918 all states had passed laws requiring children to attend at least elementary school. The Catholics were, however, opposed to common schooling and created their own private schools. Their decision was supported by the 1925 Supreme Court rule in Pierce v. Society of Sisters that states could not compel children to attend public schools, and that children could attend private schools instead." See, History of Public Education in the United States As for commies, I agree, they are bad. So what? Are you trying to say that the NEA is part of a commie plot based on some garbage from 1963? I thought the cold war was over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 the United States will NEVER be able to compete with students from Asia...how do I know? I went to high school there (Taipei American School) and I saw first hand what kids in the regular Taiwanese schools do after school...after being hammered non stop in school with ridiculously hard math problems (my math teachers would take one of their problem set books and make us try to do them...and we couldn't do them (every year, we tried their problems...geometry, algebra, calculus...who would've thought geometry could be so difficult?...btw, i was an AP scholar coming out of high school...we were also supposed to be the best of the best (my classes average SAT score out of 209 kids was 1245 (out of 1600)...the classes before and after my class average about the same)...we came in first or second annually in some national math competition...we'd always lose every year to one school in alabama whose students were all children of the scientists from the NASA facility there), they go straight from school into an after school class called bu-shi ban (which means roughly, bolstering class) to get hammered on some more...i'm not sure how it got to be this way, but everyone MUST do it or else getting into the college of your choice will be very difficult since everyone else is doing all the extra work...meanwhile, in my highschool, it was the regular american life (sort of, except it was probably more cutthroat than your average american high school as everyone was trying to get into harvard, yale, princeton...etc)...after school, we went out for sports, clubs...etc...if american kids think high school is rough with SATs and stuff, they'd all drop dead in a regular asian school...i know i would...you'd basically have no life...my two cousins are like zombies or freaks of science...in that society, education is valued above all...everything else falls below... in the united states, we worship musicians/sports/movie stars and strive to be them (see american idol)...over there, despite not making that much money, those involved in academics (i.e. university professors/scientists/medical doctors) receive the most respect... we simply do not value education enough here ever been to a scientific conference in the US? the makeup of the conferences are about 66% foreigners and 33% domestic scientists 161736[/snapback] Thank you for the insight. I was going to add this train of thought to the thread. I would add that the suicide rate for teens is much higher in Asian countries because some teens become despondant over the rigors of the academia and if they are percieved at failing to make the grade. No thanks, I dont want that intensity or pressure on my kids. There is more to life than being able to to prove the 4th dimension of time and space mathematically. Life holds so much more than your ability to perform algebra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Thank you for the insight. I was going to add this train of thought to the thread. I would add that the suicide rate for teens is much higher in Asian countries because some teens become despondant over the rigors of the academia and if they are percieved at failing to make the grade. No thanks, I dont want that intensity or pressure on my kids. There is more to life than being able to to prove the 4th dimension of time and space mathematically. Life holds so much more than your ability to perform algebra. 172926[/snapback] Not all people were EVER born to be good in math or science, but the disrespect education recieves in this country makes us more and more ignorant and irrelevant in the world. That DOES affect life beyond algebra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post. Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around. 161699[/snapback] Yeah, because "the market" has the best interests of children, and not profit, in mind. I'm sorry, our kids are already educated enough by Coca-Cola and General Motors. I'd like to move as far away from that as possible. Parents have control when the TAKE control, not because some magical corporation is going to help them do it. At least with the public system there is some semblance of accountability in electing school boards and higher-ups. When it becomes about placating shareholders, who's to say it's going to be any different than it is at your job, when they hand you a pink slip because it's the best thing for the bottom line? Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 At least with the public system there is some semblance of accountability in electing school boards and higher-ups. When it becomes about placating shareholders, who's to say it's going to be any different than it is at your job, when they hand you a pink slip because it's the best thing for the bottom line? Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses. 173320[/snapback] I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is. The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school. But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is. The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school. But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed. 173350[/snapback] That is not true. Voucher programs do not provide just choice between public schools but between private and public schools. See School Choice Cleveland, Colorado, Florida, Maine, Vermont and DC all have voucher programs. The Cleveland program does allow switching to another public school outside the district but no such schools are willing to participate in the program so the choice is effectively limited to just private schools. The Colorado program was ruled unconstitutional under that state's constitution. The program would have taken funds raised locally and provided them to private schools with no control over them by the school board. The Colorado Constitution requires that funds raised locally for education be locally controlled. Had the program been enacted, it appears that it would have been a choice between public or private, not a choice between public schools. The Florida program is actually pretty good and does include public schools however students are only able to get a voucher if their school is failing certain tests two years in a row. That really has hardly ever happened. It is more of a theoretical program than a reality. Maine just has it for people who live in areas without public schools. Rather than build new schools, Maine long ago just gave people the money to go to a private school. The private school doesn't include religious schools. It also doesn't include other public schools. The Milwaukee program also is a program between public and private, not one between public schools. The public by and large really has no trouble with plans that allow a choice among the public schools in their district. That way, the public money doesn't get funneled to private schools. The real argument here is over public money going to private schools. Even with tuition assistance and vouchers, public schools will remain the only choice for many people. Reducing the funding of those schools and channeling it to private schools will certainly be of benefit to some but lets not pretend that doesn't leave the poor behind. It does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Private education is just another way to push a good education out of the reach of the masses. 173320[/snapback] I just love the voucher plan... take money away from public schools that are already underfunded, and using this basic math: One year of private school: $8,000.00 Voucher for private school: $4,000.00 Balance owed: $4,000.00 THIS is the plan to make education MORE AVAILABLE and BETTER?! Undoubtedly people think that normal families can cough up so much extra money a year. The numbers may not be totally reflective in some areas of the country, but the basic idea is that parents who get vouchers have to find a lot of money on top of their college funds for this 'gift'. THESE are the kinds of bonehead plans we are given instead of fixing the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I just love the voucher plan... take money away from public schools that are already underfunded, and using this basic math: One year of private school: $8,000.00 Voucher for private school: $4,000.00 Balance owed: $4,000.00 THIS is the plan to make education MORE AVAILABLE and BETTER?! Undoubtedly people think that normal families can cough up so much extra money a year. The numbers may not be totally reflective in some areas of the country, but the basic idea is that parents who get vouchers have to find a lot of money on top of their college funds for this 'gift'. THESE are the kinds of bonehead plans we are given instead of fixing the problems. 173618[/snapback] Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true. Underfunded? Bull. But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it. It's always worked in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 I'm glad you included "semblance of accountability" in your post, because that is all it is. The concept of introducing market based theory into education is to let parents decide where the kids should go to public school. But don't let that get in the way of your anti-corporate screed. 173350[/snapback] I won't. But I do think that school boards are much more accountable than public officials. They bring out votes that are a lot more complex, you must agree. And generally people are much more passionate about it than the government because it directly affects their families/lives. I usually think your posts are on, GG, but I can't quite get what you are saying here. Mick has already pointed out that the motive here is to get kids into private schools, for one. But "this is not about private schools, but what's wrong with corporations running them anyway?" seems to be the gist of your argument. I don't get it. I do think corporations shouldn't be running schools. Period. They're fine for making the products we need/want/think we need most of the time, but when it comes to something as essential as the education of our children, I can't surrender that to people who are more concerned with profit than education -- we have already done this too much. As far as parents having choice of public schools, that's fine, but I can't help the feeling that we're just sweeping problematic schools under the rug and leaving the kids there behind. We should be doing our best to make all schools better for all kids, and it should be a selfless, whatever-it-takes kind of mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true. Underfunded? Bull. But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it. It's always worked in the past. 173651[/snapback] Darin, when kids in your town are having gym class in the school lobby because they can't afford a phys. ed. program and facility, it might make sense to you. But then again, we have plenty of money to toss the Jets' way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 Boy, repeating that lie often enough certainly makes it true. Underfunded? Bull. But we can keep ignoring the fundamental problems and pretending more money will fix it. It's always worked in the past. 173651[/snapback] EXAMPLES: There are high schools that have no air conditioners, their security upgrades cannot be met due to a lack of funds, art and music programs are cancelled, facilities are in disrepair... need I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 22, 2004 Share Posted December 22, 2004 OK, here is PRINT, PROOF..... People like you are a part of the problem,... you think there IS no problem! NEW YORK SOUTH CAROLINA WASHINGTON STATE PBS ARTICLE ON UNDERFUNDING HEARTLAND INSTITUTE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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