Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries. US kids lagging behind Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science". Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting. After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova. Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha). Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning? I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word. I know, it's a radical stance but there it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries. US kids lagging behind Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science". Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting. After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova. Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha). Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning? I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word. I know, it's a radical stance but there it is. 161021[/snapback] Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicot Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math. 161033[/snapback] Cucumbers? That's no good. No wonder they're still getting pregnant. Someone needs to explain to them that they need to put them on something other than a cucumber for them to be effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBillsFan Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 The latest test scores for 4th and 8th graders in Math and Science shows that the US is lagging behind Asian and some European countries. US kids lagging behind Maybe we should spend more time thinking about how to improve the education our kids are getting than we do lamenting that God isn't allowed in public shools or that we should be nudging aside the fundamentals of science to make room for "creation science". Then again, we could be satisfied with the scores our kids are getting. After all, they did nudge out those braniacs from the Republic of Moldova. Though we might not be able to compete with Singapore and Japan, maybe we should be happy with kicking Moldovian butt. (US avg. score on the 4th grade Math was 518 while the Moldavians scored a pathetic 504, yeeeeha). Since I am a christ hating pagan, my estimate is bound to be lop sided so let me field guestimates from the rest of you, what is the ratio of "let god back in school" and similar posts on the board to posts about how to improve actual learning? I am thinking that both sides need to worry less about using schools to craft morality of anykind and more about education in the "teaching kids" sense of the word. I know, it's a radical stance but there it is. 161021[/snapback] The teachers can't teach math and science because the dumb kids may get their feelings hurt if some kids know things they don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Cucumbers? That's no good. No wonder they're still getting pregnant. Someone needs to explain to them that they need to put them on something other than a cucumber for them to be effective Shhh! They're not supposed to know that. Knowledge is evil. Look at the damage that Charles Darwin has already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject. I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives. This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBillsFan Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject. I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives. This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals. 161130[/snapback] You are obviously a religious fanatic…I bet you hate gays too don’t you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest RabidBillsFanVT Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I have the complete answer to our problem: My theory is that since our independence, the overall ability of our citizens in subjects increased. As books became more available, and more students had access to classrooms instead of back-breaking jobs to support their family, we became a more intelligent, innovative society with respect to education. This peak was reached with the 1960's. After the 1960's, the evolution of television created more and more kids who didn't need books or learning activities or adventures to spend their free time with. They had the OL TV. This only grew worse over time, with kids who grew up this way having kids who became WORSE than their parents, now armed with video games, and so on. It is a cycle that has only been SOMEWHAT broken by the advent of the internet. In other words, kids who grew up watching a lot of television were kept away from other things, and their kids got worse. Now look at us. I'm not Amish on the subject of TV or anything, but bad parenting is rampant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Wait a second........... http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisla...ories-headlines Eighth-graders score gains on international tests BY JOHN HILDEBRAND STAFF WRITER December 15, 2004 U.S. eighth-graders showed significant gains on international tests in science and math, according to results released yesterday, with sharpest improvements registered among Hispanic and black students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives. This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals. I went to Catholic grammer, high school, and college. When it came to science, I learned about science, including evolution, and wasn't subjected to being told that creationism was just as valid. In fact in college my required religious classes explained how the Bible was a narrative developed over the centuries, not a literal historical document. The problem recently is that there's an increased push to have religious beliefs cross over as valid scientific alternatives to proven facts, and narratives as historical facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Our kids are too busy putting condoms on cucumbers to bother with either religion or math. 161033[/snapback] Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved. I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 There's a few odd comments throughout several of these related threads that seem to indicate children taught religion in school are somehow at a disadvantage with children taught in a secular academic environment. Please don't confuse this as a either/or subject. I attended a Catholic HS where theology class was a requirement. Science, math, english, etc studies did not stray across accepted boundaries you would find at any public HS. I and many other students attended mass several times a week on a regular basis, and prayer was a part of our everyday lives. This school and many like it turn out some of our nation's most well-educated individuals. 161130[/snapback] The catholic church has no objections to evolution nor does it require teaching half baked bunkum in science class. It subscribes to a theistic from of evolution which creationists most assuredly do not. It is not an either/or situation at all. It is the creationists that would have it so. Learn religion in religious studies classes, theology in theology class and science in science class. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arondale Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved. I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only. Makes sense. 161289[/snapback] Yes, and the Dover school district in York, PA, which you refer to in your other thread and are obviously referring to in this thread, is the only school district in the entire country to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design. Yet somehow your conclusions make sense, Mickey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Yes there are around 4 schools in Chicago and maybe 3 in NYC that have condom availabiltiy programs, all of them High Schools so 4th graders are not involved. I can see why you would blame the poor test results across the entire nation in thousands of schools in 4th grade on a program in a handful of schools applicable to Grades 10-12 only. Makes sense. 161289[/snapback] Well, in your original post of this thread, you implied it was (at least partially) because "creation science" was nudging something aside. My guess is that 4th graders are taught neither evolution nor creation science. Even if they were only taught evolution, as you'd advocate, this would likely not help their math scores. Further, in an old thread, I suggested that maybe more time be spent on the three r's instead of condoms and I got the sense you did not agree. Based on this, I figured I throw in a wise @$$ comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Yes, and the Dover school district in York, PA, which you refer to in your other thread and are obviously referring to in this thread, is the only school district in the entire country to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design. Yet somehow your conclusions make sense, Mickey? 161307[/snapback] Actually I am referring to all school districts where prayer in school, among other similar issues, is being fought over. Did you not see the "lamenting that God is kept out of schools" part of my original post? Read the post again and maybe you can find something else to hit me with. I can only speculate on what schools have spent on attorneys trying to get a prayer service at graduation ceremonies to pass constitutional muster or similar endeavors. As for evolution/creationist clashes, see this site for links to states where this has been an issue including Alabama, Kansas and Georgia to name a few. Talk.design In addition to Dover, Pa., this has been a problem recently in Cobb county Ga. and in Grantsburg Wisconsin. It was a state wide fight in Kansas that lasted 2 years, from 1999-2001. There is legislation pending in Michigan mandating intelligent design. I would think that education budgets would be thin enough without inviting litigation by insisting on forced prayers, nativity scenes and rewriting science textbooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Well, in your original post of this thread, you implied it was (at least partially) because "creation science" was nudging something aside. My guess is that 4th graders are taught neither evolution nor creation science. Even if they were only taught evolution, as you'd advocate, this would likely not help their math scores. Further, in an old thread, I suggested that maybe more time be spent on the three r's instead of condoms and I got the sense you did not agree. Based on this, I figured I throw in a wise @$$ comment. 161350[/snapback] So now you need a reason to be a wise @$$? Talk about a lousy theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too. The multiculturalists, by stark contrast, do not see the United States at all as a good country with common values worth transmitting. They grossly divide Americans into "oppressors" (all whites of European descent) and the "oppressed" (all persons of color from minority cultures). Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States," a 750-page screed that depicts America as a continuing centuries-old conspiracy of rich white men to exploit minorities, is their hornbook. Many use it in their classrooms to demean America's Founders. They want to mold future teachers into agents of social transformation who will reject the continuing Anglo/Western influences on the core curriculum and denounce what they contend is a legacy of unrelenting oppression that should cause all white Americans to carry a heavy burden of guilt. That much becomes clear when the National Association for Multicultural Education (NAME) convenes annually (as it did recently in Kansas City), and professors and teachers from all 50 states gather in more than 200 workshops to lay bare their agendas. Veteran teacher-trainer G. Pritchy Smith of the University of North Florida, who co-conducted a day-long NAME institute on how schools of education should meet diversity standards for accreditation, argues for a "culturally responsible" pedagogy for teacher education that will enable teachers to carry a "social reconstructionist perspective" into the classroom. His goal: "People who live multicultural lifestyles, live multicultural ways. We need a deep-rooted transformation of values and dispositions — the multicultural teacher." This is how the National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education (NCATE), a NAME partner, defines diversity: "Differences among groups of people and individuals based on ethnicity, race, socioeconomic status, gender, exceptionalities, language, religion, sexual orientation, and geographical area." At a small-group workshop this year, presenters from Central Missouri State University argued that teachers should be trained to rewrite a curriculum they view as oppressively Eurocentric. Multicultural Crap in the Schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Maybe multiculturalism has more to do with US kids getting hammered on Math and Science than prayer...just maybe. Oh and the ridiculous self-esteem crap being pushed on them all the time. Disband the NEA and public education might stand a chance too.Multicultural Crap in the Schools 161640[/snapback] Sure, the best way to learn is to get rid of schools. Maybe the best way to get rid of death is to get rid of hospitals? Really, people are dying all the time so clearly the hospitals are an abject failure, close them down I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin in Va Beach Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Sure, the best way to learn is to get rid of schools. Maybe the best way to get rid of death is to get rid of hospitals? Really, people are dying all the time so clearly the hospitals are an abject failure, close them down I say. 161671[/snapback] Please tell me how you got 'get rid of schools' out of my post. Though getting rid of 'public education' may not be a bad idea. The market will fill the void and parents will have control over their child's education once again. Probably too big a concept for you libs to get your minds around. And of course, lest we forget- On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr. of Florida read a list of 45 Communist goals into the Congressional Record. The list was derived from researcher Cleon Skousen’s book “The Naked Communist.” These principles are well worth revisiting today in order to gain insights into the thinking and strategies of much of our so-called liberal elite. 17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for Socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks. Go ahead Mick, spew your drivel about how this is drivel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet baboo Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 the United States will NEVER be able to compete with students from Asia...how do I know? I went to high school there (Taipei American School) and I saw first hand what kids in the regular Taiwanese schools do after school...after being hammered non stop in school with ridiculously hard math problems (my math teachers would take one of their problem set books and make us try to do them...and we couldn't do them (every year, we tried their problems...geometry, algebra, calculus...who would've thought geometry could be so difficult?...btw, i was an AP scholar coming out of high school...we were also supposed to be the best of the best (my classes average SAT score out of 209 kids was 1245 (out of 1600)...the classes before and after my class average about the same)...we came in first or second annually in some national math competition...we'd always lose every year to one school in alabama whose students were all children of the scientists from the NASA facility there), they go straight from school into an after school class called bu-shi ban (which means roughly, bolstering class) to get hammered on some more...i'm not sure how it got to be this way, but everyone MUST do it or else getting into the college of your choice will be very difficult since everyone else is doing all the extra work... meanwhile, in my highschool, it was the regular american life (sort of, except it was probably more cutthroat than your average american high school as everyone was trying to get into harvard, yale, princeton...etc)...after school, we went out for sports, clubs...etc...if american kids think high school is rough with SATs and stuff, they'd all drop dead in a regular asian school...i know i would...you'd basically have no life...my two cousins are like zombies or freaks of science...in that society, education is valued above all...everything else falls below... in the united states, we worship musicians/sports/movie stars and strive to be them (see american idol)...over there, despite not making that much money, those involved in academics (i.e. university professors/scientists/medical doctors) receive the most respect... we simply do not value education enough here ever been to a scientific conference in the US? the makeup of the conferences are about 66% foreigners and 33% domestic scientists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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