ATF running guns to Mexico

[dayman]

No, it is not.

 

 

There is also the responsibilities of those who helped provide guns to killers, that is what is being investigated.

 

.

 

 

Yes, it is. And that's the situation...ATF down there had for some time engaged in stings selling guns and lost quite a few, culminating in a sale where they lost a ton...then the practice was ended (by HOlder himself)...now it's being investigated by everybody b/c why? Eric Holder is in contempt of Congress by vote exactly down the party line why? B/c of a search for the truth and a remedy to this issue? Take off the blinder brother.

Edited June 21, 2012 by TheNewBills

[DC Tom]

Yes, it is. And that's the situation...ATF down there had for some time engaged in stings selling guns and lost quite a few, culminating in a sale where they lost a ton...then the practice was ended (by HOlder himself)...now it's being investigated by everybody b/c why? Eric Holder is in contempt of Congress by vote exactly down the party line why? B/c of a search for the truth and a remedy to this issue? Take off the blinder brother.

 

Under a program that spans two administrations...but only this one exercised bad judgement...

 

 

...no, wait. I can almost buy that logic.

[IDBillzFan]

Terry's death did not make the program any more or any less stupid.

 

What's more, implying that Terry's death makes it an issue is greviously insulting to the people (probably somewhere between dozens and hundreds) that were killed by the guns that ATF let walk before Terry was killed.

 

But they were just wetbacks, not red-blooded Americans. Who gives a **** about them...

It may not have made it any more or less stupid, but it was a horrible idea, people are dead, and other people need to be held accountable. I'm not sure why anyone would question why this investigation is necessary.

 

And yes, I know...it was started in the Bush administration. I don't give a crap. Bad idea. Dead people. Someone needs to be held accountable.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LABillzFan

[GG]

Under a program that spans two administrations...but only this one exercised bad judgement...

 

 

...no, wait. I can almost buy that logic.

 

But given this administration's predilection for trashing evil Bush, they usually have no problems releasing documents related to the previous administration.

[B-Man]

Yes, it is. And that's the situation...ATF down there had for some time engaged in stings selling guns and lost quite a few, culminating in a sale where they lost a ton...then the practice was ended (by HOlder himself)...now it's being investigated by everybody b/c why? Eric Holder is in contempt of Congress by vote exactly down the party line why? B/c of a search for the truth and a remedy to this issue? Take off the blinder brother.

 

It must be difficult for you. I guess I can assume you don't vote, because everything a politician does is self-serving, so why vote, right?

 

You deliberately overstate both sides of the argument, no one can be trying to find the truth, its only being done for political reasons, everyone who doesnt accept that "all or nothing" appoach has blinders on........................................sad.

 

 

 

Under a program that spans two administrations...but only this one exercised bad judgement...

...no, wait. I can almost buy that logic.

 

 

You have been given clear links (and are well-read enough to know) that the two programs were NOT the same, but you keep repeating it to try and make a point.

 

(Most) everyone agrees that both programs were awful, so your second comment is quite superfluous.

 

 

.

Edited June 21, 2012 by B-Man

[dayman]

It must be difficult for you. I guess I can assume you don't vote, because everything a politician does is self-serving, so why vote, right?

 

You deliberately overstate both sides of the argument, no one can be trying to find the truth, its only being done for political reasons, everyone who doesnt accept that "all or nothing" appoach has blinders on........................................sad.

 

 

 

 

 

If you can't see this as what it is...you straight up cannot talk about anything with anyone except other people who 1) are stupid enough to feel they have a "team" plain and simple in politics and 2) who have your team and are enthusiastic about it. This is as transparent as it gets. It's that simple.

 

As for the "programs" argument...it's irrelevant. It's the practice that matters...that's what the ATF had been doing period...for quite sometime...it was messing it up for a while...and finally after a huge mess up was ended under Holder. That's it. "Program" labels matter not the entire dispute over 1 program continuing and morphing or 2 programs is stupid. It was all 1 big thing they had been doing...

Edited June 21, 2012 by TheNewBills

[Joe Miner]

We have a stupid gov't program designed to ignore gun sales to shady individuals that very possibly have connections to Mexican drug cartels.

 

 

What is the problem with investigating something like that?

 

 

I can't possibly come to a definite theory on why we have the program and what it's intentions were or were not until I know wtf was going on.

 

 

I don't care if the investigation shows that Evil Dick Cheney signed the F&F order in baby's blood, and is ultimately the one responsible for this level of stupidity by the gov't. I want to see it investigated.

 

 

If it literally boils down to some gov't asswipe trying to cover his incompetence, I still want it investigated.

 

Perhaps if people knew the stupid ideas the gov't dreamed up and enacted, we'd stop giving the gov't so much unchecked power? Oh wait... never mind.

[Nanker]

When George Bush ordered the killing of Pat Tillman there was an investigation and the media was in hot pursuit of the story.

[dayman]

We have a stupid gov't program designed to ignore gun sales to shady individuals that very possibly have connections to Mexican drug cartels.

 

 

What is the problem with investigating something like that?

 

 

I can't possibly come to a definite theory on why we have the program and what it's intentions were or were not until I know wtf was going on.

 

 

I don't care if the investigation shows that Evil Dick Cheney signed the F&F order in baby's blood, and is ultimately the one responsible for this level of stupidity by the gov't. I want to see it investigated.

 

 

If it literally boils down to some gov't asswipe trying to cover his incompetence, I still want it investigated.

 

Perhaps if people knew the stupid ideas the gov't dreamed up and enacted, we'd stop giving the gov't so much unchecked power? Oh wait... never mind.

 

LOL what are you talking about "designed to ignore gun sales?" We KNOW what it was designed to do, it was a !@#$ing sting...it wasn't "designed" to give guns to Mexican Cartels and just let them walk away and be ignored Joe... and we know they kept losing track of the guns and couldn't execute it, and we know finally it was ended b/c of that. And any idiot can tell that there was incompetence or else they wouldn't have sold a bunch of guns to criminals. The idea this is some huge conspiracy where we don't know "what is going on" is crazy Joe C'MON MAN (in my best Chris Carter voice)

Edited June 21, 2012 by TheNewBills

[B-Man]

If you can't see this as what it is...you straight up cannot talk about anything with anyone except other people who 1) are stupid enough to feel they have a "team" plain and simple in politics and 2) who have your team and are enthusiastic about it. This is as transparent as it gets. It's that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the "programs" argument...it's irrelevant. It's the practice that matters...that's what the ATF had been doing period...for quite sometime...it was messing it up for a while...and finally after a huge mess up was ended under Holder. That's it. "Program" labels matter not the entire dispute over 1 program continuing and morphing or 2 programs is stupid. It was all 1 big thing they had been doing...

 

 

 

1st paragraph.) This what is known in my field (healthcare) as projection.

 

You have decided that its one (team) of politicians against the other, not I.

I still believe that there are some good, dedicated folks in Congress................its that simple.

 

2nd paragraph) "it was messing up for a while and finally ended under Holder" is whats known as denial.

 

The Fast and Furious program was NOT a continuation, but a NEW program (albeit similar) that was started by the Obama Justice dpt.

 

 

 

 

.

[dayman]

B-man I feel for you man, I don't doubt you believe this is a totally legitimate investigation and Issa and his irk are simply proceeding as they are compelled to by their conscious and sense of obligation to their office. I feel for you.

[erynthered]

I present WH spokesman, the one and only.....................Carney for some laughs.

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/white-house-spokesman-executive-privilege-entirely-about-principle_647707.html

[B-Man]

I present WH spokesman, the one and only.....................Carney for some laughs.

 

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/white-house-spokesman-executive-privilege-entirely-about-principle_647707.html

 

 

Ouch......................

 

That 4th clip (Carney forgot the name of the slain border patrol agent who died as a result of Fast and Furious.)

 

Thats not very helpful to their cause.

 

.

[Joe Miner]

LOL what are you talking about "designed to ignore gun sales?" We KNOW what it was designed to do, it was a !@#$ing sting...it wasn't "designed" to give guns to Mexican Cartels and just let them walk away and be ignored Joe... and we know they kept losing track of the guns and couldn't execute it, and we know finally it was ended b/c of that. And any idiot can tell that there was incompetence or else they wouldn't have sold a bunch of guns to criminals. The idea this is some huge conspiracy where we don't know "what is going on" is crazy Joe C'MON MAN (in my best Chris Carter voice)

 

How you got some conspiracy idea from my post it hard to understand.

 

When I say "ignore" I mean that they let gun sales go through that normally wouldn't have been approved in order to try to track them.

 

We agree on how the program appeared to be designed to work.

 

Perhaps I'm hoping there was mbecause the intent because that's a stupid !@#$ing program and someone should be publicly flogged for even suggesting it.

[DC Tom]

You have been given clear links (and are well-read enough to know) that the two programs were NOT the same, but you keep repeating it to try and make a point.

 

Same PROGRAM. Different OPERATIONS. And F&F was, for all practical purposes, a clone of the earlier operation (same tactical plan, put together and run by the same guy in the same Arizona office.) ATF and DOJ themselves, in their own memos which have been made public and provided to Congress, have explicitly said just that.

 

Whatever sources are telling you otherwise suck.

[IDBillzFan]

B-man I feel for you man, I don't doubt you believe this is a totally legitimate investigation and Issa and his irk are simply proceeding as they are compelled to by their conscious and sense of obligation to their office. I feel for you.

I just want to ensure we understand each other. You believe there is nothing to pursue here, and this entire exercise by Issa is a waste of time because it's motivations are impure. Your belief here is, essentially, "Yes, people screwed up and yes, people died, but no, it's not worth looking into."

 

Just want to ensure we're clear on this.

Edited June 21, 2012 by LABillzFan

[3rdnlng]

This a pretty good article from the WP about a year ago:

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-anti-gunrunning-effort-turns-fatally-wrong/2011/07/14/gIQAH5d6YI_story.html

 

 

"Phoenix — They came from all over the country, agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, brought here in a bold new effort to shut down the flow of U.S. guns to Mexican drug cartels. It was called Operation Fast and Furious, after a popular movie about street car racing."

Edited June 21, 2012 by 3rdnlng

[B-Man]

Same PROGRAM. Different OPERATIONS. And F&F was, for all practical purposes, a clone of the earlier operation (same tactical plan, put together and run by the same guy in the same Arizona office.) ATF and DOJ themselves, in their own memos which have been made public and provided to Congress, have explicitly said just that.

 

Whatever sources are telling you otherwise suck.

 

 

 

Operation Wide Receiver is the Obama administration’s desperate excuse/distraction from their gunrunning activities;

 

it was a Bush-era program that was supposedly identical to Operation Fast & Furious............ except that attempts were made to keep track of the guns being sold (Operation Fast & Furious did not),

 

OWR was conducted with the awareness and cooperation of the Mexican government (OF&F was not),

 

and – contra the earnest attempts of the Obama administration – the program ended before Bush left office. So, in other words, it wasn’t particularly identical to Operation Fast & Furious at all.

 

By the way: my source for the first two points of difference?

 

 

 

 

The sworn testimony of Attorney General Eric Holder, back when Sen. John Cornyn was raking him over the coals in 2011. Here is a clip, you can see Holder admitting the differences, and explicitly denying that the two operations were the same.

 

 

 

 

Of course, Tom may still be right...........................................There's always a good chance that Holder was...............lying

 

 

 

.

[DC Tom]

Operation Wide Receiver is the Obama administration’s desperate excuse/distraction from their gunrunning activities;

 

it was a Bush-era program that was supposedly identical to Operation Fast & Furious............ except that attempts were made to keep track of the guns being sold (Operation Fast & Furious did not),

 

OWR was conducted with the awareness and cooperation of the Mexican government (OF&F was not),

 

and – contra the earnest attempts of the Obama administration – the program ended before Bush left office. So, in other words, it wasn’t particularly identical to Operation Fast & Furious at all.

 

By the way: my source for the first two points of difference?

 

 

 

 

The sworn testimony of Attorney General Eric Holder, back when Sen. John Cornyn was raking him over the coals in 2011. Here is a clip, you can see Holder admitting the differences, and explicitly denying that the two operations were the same.

 

 

 

 

Of course, Tom may still be right...........................................There's always a good chance that Holder was...............lying

 

 

 

.

 

Different OPERATIONS, same PROGRAM. And the OPERATIONS were both planned and run by the same guy.

 

Holder's disingenuous to say they're not related - they're very closely related. The planning memos - available online, particularly from the Post article that 3rd posted - make that pretty clear. Of course, Holder probably didn't know either, given that all this **** was planned and executed below his level.

[3rdnlng]

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/20/fast-and-furious-covering-up-the-death-of-a-u-s-agent/

 

 

 

"Fast and Furious began in September 2009 and was not shut down until January 2011. It was a reckless law enforcement operation that led to thousands of weapons ending up in the hands of dangerous criminals and major drug cartels. This “felony stupid” operation, as it has been referred to, was not shut down until two weapons that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) had allowed straw buyers to purchase and take across the Mexican border were found at the murder scene of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry on December 14, 2010. This conduct, as testimony from several ATF whistleblowers showed, was against all ATF rules and procedures. The well-known rule at the Department of Justice (DOJ) drummed into all prosecutors is that you never let guns or drugs get away from you in any undercover operation."

 

 

Didn't Eric Holder say in a May 2011 appearance before Congress that he first became aware of F&F a few weeks prior? So, if it was shut down in January of 2011, how can he claim credit for shutting it down? Just wondering if he's incompetent or just a liar.