UConn James Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Respectfully, Tom, you're wrong. If you read the links in posts #24 and 26 in this thread, the emails and documents that have been released to the oversight committee implicate Assistant AG Lanny Bruer had knowledge of and gave at least tacit approval for OF&F before Brian Terry's murder and other killings/acts of violence committed with these weapons. This is decidedly NOT about the president taking the bullet for some low-level agents, local directors or analysts who went on a power trip. This goes much higher than that. Edited June 21, 2012 by UConn James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Respectfully, Tom, you're wrong. If you read the links in posts #24 and 26 in this thread, the emails and documents that have been released to the oversight committee implicate Assistant AG Lanny Bruer had knowledge of and gave at least tacit approval for OF&F before Brian Terry's murder and other killings/acts of violence committed with these weapons. This is decidedly NOT about the president taking the bullet for some low-level agents, local directors or analysts who went on a power trip. This goes much higher than that. Actually, nothing in those links (as far as I can tell - the Breitbart one I could only guess at) contradicts me. It's entirely consistent with bureaucracy run amok, and idiots trying to cover their asses after the fact. And that's not "taking a bullet" for senior civil servants. That's avoiding looking stupid by not admitting "Oh, we told our underlings to interdict guns at the cartel level; we didn't know how they implemented it, though." Which is not only sadly common but also consistent with bureaucracy run amok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'm watching Rep Issa right now, and he claims Eric Holder wouldn't give him the 1300 documents that they wanted but the 1300 documents out of the 140,000 that they thought might be pertinent. How dumb can all of these people be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxrock Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Man, the threads I've started on that other forum over 6 months ago about this only to be brushed off by the libs on that site. Larry, where are you now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Ah the hoopla over these document disputes...it's not unhealthy I suppose but is everyone so anti-executive? These happen with most almost every president in some capacity and w/ out a criminal indictment and judicial order it always ends the same...some sort of compromise after extensive muscle flexing...and hell even w/ a criminal indictment and court order a president may still beat it if he can assert some more specific privilege under the circumstances than Nixon did. Intergovernmental docu-battles aren't that extraordinary and it's healthy for people to want to support congress here I'm not saying it isn't it helps keep everybody in check but to get too worked up over it as if it's something extraordinary IMO just makes people seem like conspiracy theorists or on a partisan witc-hunt until proven correct. Anything is possible...but I would be shocked if this ends with anything other than a compromise and at most boring conclusions drawn from the papers that end up coming. Then again I always err on the side of the executive (no matter who it is...Bush, Obama, whoever) and some people have a different view point which is fine provided it's a philosophical one and a purely partisan one. Edited June 21, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Holder would have walked the documents over to the Capitol Building himself if one of the guns was linked to the Travon Martin killing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UConn James Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Ah the hoopla over these document disputes...it's not unhealthy I suppose but is everyone so anti-executive? These happen with most almost every president in some capacity and w/ out a criminal indictment and judicial order it always ends the same...some sort of compromise after extensive muscle flexing...and hell even w/ a criminal indictment and court order a president may still beat it if he can assert some more specific privilege under the circumstances than Nixon did. Intergovernmental docu-battles aren't that extraordinary and it's healthy for people to want to support congress here I'm not saying it isn't it helps keep everybody in check but to get too worked up over it as if it's something extraordinary IMO just makes people seem like conspiracy theorists or on a partisan witc-hunt until proven correct. Anything is possible...but I would be shocked if this ends with anything other than a compromise and at most boring conclusions drawn from the papers that end up coming. Then again I always err on the side of the executive (no matter who it is...Bush, Obama, whoever) and some people have a different view point which is fine provided it's a philosophical one and a purely partisan one. Hmm! Well, I always err on the side of the truth of what actually happened, however ugly it might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Holder Has Long Been ContemptibleBy Aaron Goldstein While the House Oversight Committee has now recommended that Congress hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt for his conduct during the Fast and Furious scandal, one could make the case that Holder has long held the American public in contempt. After all, how many cabinet secretaries begin their tenure by calling his fellow Americans "a nation of cowards" where it concerned the question of racism? Never mind that America has become a nation where racism is not only unacceptable but a nation where, outside of being called a murderer or a rapist, nothing is worse than being called a racist. If anyone has behaved cowardly where it concerns racism, it is Holder. What can one say about a man who sees fit to drop a successfully prosecuted case of voter intimidation? {snip} Instead we have an Attorney General who uses the race card to immunize himself from criticism. In December 2011, Holder told the New York Times, "This is a way to get at the president because of the way I can be identified with him both due to the nature of our relationship and, you know, the fact that we're both African-American." Ah yes, from the Janeane Garofalo School of Government which states that all Republican criticism of President Obama and, by extension, Eric Holder is motivated solely by race. Aaron Goldstein . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Hmm! Well, I always err on the side of the truth of what actually happened, however ugly it might be. Just out of curiosity what do you expect to find out when this whole thing is settled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Just out of curiosity what do you expect to find out when this whole thing is settled? Let's start with who murdered a federal border agent and what weapon was used to murder him. And while we're at it, let's find out which of those guns were used to murder over 300 Mexican residents, and how did we lose track of those guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Let's start with who murdered a federal border agent and what weapon was used to murder him. And while we're at it, let's find out which of those guns were used to murder over 300 Mexican residents, and how did we lose track of those guns? Is it not safe to assume a criminal on the border killed the agent with a gun that we know was from the gun sting, one of the many guns that were lost, and they were lost b/c we !@#$ed up the gun sting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Just out of curiosity what do you expect to find out when this whole thing is settled? The TRUTH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Is it not safe to assume a criminal on the border killed the agent with a gun that we know was from the gun sting, one of the many guns that were lost, and they were lost b/c we !@#$ed up the gun sting? Oh, you're right. We should call Brian Terry's family and just explain it that way. They probably don't care about the details. "Yeah, your son is dead, and sure, it was probably by a bad guy, and yes, somebody obviously messed up, but is it really that important to get into the messy little details?" Put another way...is it not safe to assume that Trayvon Martin was killed with a registered gun that we know was from a community watch guy? Maybe we should just let that suffice as well. Edited June 21, 2012 by LABillzFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Let's start with who murdered a federal border agent and what weapon was used to murder him. And while we're at it, let's find out which of those guns were used to murder over 300 Mexican residents, and how did we lose track of those guns? The TRUTH. Yeah...not happening. It's a political issue now, "truth" has ****-all to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This is about Brian Terry's family...that's what this is all about....ah I didn't realize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Yeah...not happening. It's a political issue now, "truth" has ****-all to do with it. Sad but true, I am afraid. Oh, and I see today that Mr. Holder is apparently ready to negotiate to prevent a contempt hearing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 This is about Brian Terry's family...that's what this is all about....ah I didn't realize that. Someone said that? Who said that? I know it could only come from a Republican...but it's a Pelosian level of disingeniousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Yeah...not happening. It's a political issue now, "truth" has ****-all to do with it. That the search for truth has been given a back seat does not mean it should not be pursued. Brian Terry is dead. His family deserves answers. Exec. privilege should not stop the search for answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Is it not safe to assume a criminal on the border killed the agent with a gun that we know was from the gun sting, one of the many guns that were lost, and they were lost b/c we !@#$ed up the gun sting? I think it would help us in the future to know how this whole operation came about, who knew about it, who authorized it and who tried to cover it up. As I'm writing this Press Secretary Carney is blaming the House Republicans for making this political and not focusing on the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 That the search for truth has been given a back seat does not mean it should not be pursued. Brian Terry is dead. His family deserves answers. Exec. privilege should not stop the search for answers. The answers aren't going to be found in a Congressional hearing. And Brian Terry's death is actually irrelevant to Fast and Furious. (Yes, I know..."Tell that to Terry's family." Whoever's going to post that, let me preemptively call you a !@#$ing moron. An ill-advised government program didn't kill him.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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