Thoner7 Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Here is a list of assumptions Bills fans seem to make about our team way too often: - Lee Evans just needs a legit #2 WR to be good - Fitz just needs a better OL and a TE - Spiller needs time to develop – he is going to be special - Urbik is going to develop into a starting RG - DBell just needs to stay healthy and go through a full season of weight training and he will be great - Mansfield Wrotto can develop into our starting RT - Troup is going to be our answer at NG - Carrington is going to develop into a great DE - Poz just needs a better DL in front of him - Whitner would be an all pro Safety if the front 7 was better - McKelvin will be a great lock down CB once we get a pass rush - Maybin just needs better coaching - Maybin just needs to put more effort into improving – he has all the talent just needs to put forth the effort - Merriman is going to be playing at one OLB spot - Batten is going to be at one ILB spot. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with any other these points, but I’m sure everyone reading this post has read someone else’s post that contained one of these assumptions. Does anyone else find this insane? I listed 2/3rds of the team – and every one has some excuse as to why they aren’t producing. Since when is a young player developing a sure thing? Most rookies don’t pan out – yet most assume that Troup, Spiller, Carrington and Moats are going to be our savior at their respective positions? People still have hope for Maybin? People don’t want us to draft Fairley or Dareus because we took Carrington and Troup last year??? I just read in one thread that someone didn’t want to draft Miller because we have moats and merriman already at OLB….Really? They aren’t sure things, not for this season or next or the one after, and even with them we are still weak at the position. At some point we have to stop making excuses for the players – we need to get better. We are drafting 3rd overall, that makes us the 30th best team in the league last year (out of 32 for those who cant count). 30th best – we need upgrades everywhere. We shouldn’t rely on Troup being our answer at NG because he didn’t show that he WAS the answer. We cannot let him be the reason we avoid another potentially great player. We cant expect Urbik to play like a playoff caliber G – if there is a great G prospect there at 34 we should nab him. We shouldn’t assume Whitner would be an all pro safety – because he isn’t an all pro safety. Hoping and praying that guys we already have are magically going to get better isn’t the way to build a Super Bowl Champion. Going out and getting players who get it done is. The guys on the team got us to 4-12, clearly they didn’t get it done. If we aren’t willing to replace players like Whitner and Evans and arent willing to invest more picks at weak positions like NG (Troup) and DE (Carrington) and LB(Poz/Merriman/Moats) then we are never going to get better. I got on a ramble but you get my point, we need better players everywhere, that means drafting at position where we recently added another guy and replacing average at best veterans with better players.
hammie65 Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 There is talent on this team and there are guys who need to go and Chan and Nix have shown that they aren't afraid to pull the trigger on guys who've had time to prove themselves and who haven't, or who don't fit what they want to do. If the front office and the fans don't give them the several years that they are going to need to straighten this mess out, we will face ten more years (minimum) of the same. A few key players if added will fix most of these issues but this will take at least a couple of more years of drafts and free agency picks to get it right, unless we get extremely lucky. We will improve this year and a little more next year, etc., but don't expect miracles in one or two seasons, just steady improvement (HOPEFULLY!).
yungmack Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Here is a list of assumptions Bills fans seem to make about our team way too often: - Lee Evans just needs a legit #2 WR to be good - Fitz just needs a better OL and a TE - Spiller needs time to develop – he is going to be special - Urbik is going to develop into a starting RG - DBell just needs to stay healthy and go through a full season of weight training and he will be great - Mansfield Wrotto can develop into our starting RT - Troup is going to be our answer at NG - Carrington is going to develop into a great DE - Poz just needs a better DL in front of him - Whitner would be an all pro Safety if the front 7 was better - McKelvin will be a great lock down CB once we get a pass rush - Maybin just needs better coaching - Maybin just needs to put more effort into improving – he has all the talent just needs to put forth the effort - Merriman is going to be playing at one OLB spot - Batten is going to be at one ILB spot. Does anyone else find this insane? I listed 2/3rds of the team – and every one has some excuse as to why they aren’t producing. Most of what you list isn't "excuses" as you call them, but assessments. And as far as Maybin and Evans, Gailey has made it more than clear that they aren't playing up to his standards. Fitz had a better line than the Bills fielded in '09 and the offense was more productive. That line should be even better, maybe even a lot better, in '11 just through experience and continuity alone. Additionally, Bell will be healthy and stronger, Wood will be fully healed, Wang will finally be available, and Urbik, Rhinehart and Wrotto are already a huge upgrade over the players they replaced. Whitner and McKelvin have received loads of criticism on this board, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that people around here think they'll suddenly be all pro with better coaching. However, a much improved D line will in fact make the LBs and secondary "better." As to Merriman, IF he's healthy and IF he stays sound for the whole season, how can that not be an upgrade? Batten is a big question mark but with loads of potential. Carrington and Troupe are good players already and appear to have a bright future.
downunderbill Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Still feel like they are on a better track than the last regime offered. hard to tell after one year though.
DrFishfinder Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 There are a significant number of ex Bills players who rode the hound out of town and are starting and playing pretty well on other teams. And there are a bunch of possible reasons why that is...square peg in round hole, didn't want to play in Buffalo, didn't get a chance to play, injuries, bad coaching, etc. The Bills have made poor draft choices, bad trades and kept some who should have been traded or cut. Lets see what Gailey does in his 2nd year.
John from Riverside Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 If all those things happened we would win every game including the super bowl next year..... I think SOME of those things will happen.....how many actually do will determine how well we do
Thud Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Thoner is actually a retired GM/Coach/Owner with more negative knowledge about a team that he secretly hates. Come clean man is this Belicheat? Sexy Rexy? Parcells? Just come clean man.
BillsVet Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Thoner is actually a retired GM/Coach/Owner with more negative knowledge about a team that he secretly hates. Come clean man is this Belicheat? Sexy Rexy? Parcells? Just come clean man. I think the OP makes good observations about certain players. The Bills roster is very weak and still in need of a lot more talent, which the GM and HC admit. Unfortunately, they have very little idea what they're doing defensively, either 4-3 or 3-4 despite what the GM and HC say, which makes for interesting personnel decisions. They have two many guys who can play in either/or defense, not both. Offensively, they need real NFL OT's, not projects, UDFA's, or garbage UFA's at the line's 2 most important positions. They struggle to defend the run and run the ball. Not much has changed since DJ was axed. It's okay to be a fan and complain about a team that's gone 11 seasons without a playoff appearance and has all of 1 winning season in that time. It's fine if some want to be blatant homers and never question OBD, but with their track record, almost everything should be questioned.
Green Lightning Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 By the OP's thinking the Sabres FO should have pulled the plug on half the young guys that are producing now. Green Bay should have given up on BJ Raji because he didn't show he was the answer in his first year. If this were written last year at this time he probably would have given up on Stevie Johnson. Thank God the OP is just a bitching fan and has no real input to the team. Our 2nd year players will be just fine. This is just another p*ssing and moaning thread.
Thoner7 Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) Most of what you list isn't "excuses" as you call them, but assessments. And as far as Maybin and Evans, Gailey has made it more than clear that they aren't playing up to his standards. Fitz had a better line than the Bills fielded in '09 and the offense was more productive. That line should be even better, maybe even a lot better, in '11 just through experience and continuity alone. Additionally, Bell will be healthy and stronger, Wood will be fully healed, Wang will finally be available, and Urbik, Rhinehart and Wrotto are already a huge upgrade over the players they replaced. Whitner and McKelvin have received loads of criticism on this board, so I don't know where you're getting the idea that people around here think they'll suddenly be all pro with better coaching. However, a much improved D line will in fact make the LBs and secondary "better." As to Merriman, IF he's healthy and IF he stays sound for the whole season, how can that not be an upgrade? Batten is a big question mark but with loads of potential. Carrington and Troupe are good players already and appear to have a bright future. Thanks for proving my point, which is - just because we have the almighty Wang and Rhinehart at G, its 's still a position that needs a significant upgrade if we ever want to make the playoffs. Edited March 26, 2011 by Thoner7
Beerball Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 chickens...don't count your chickens before they hatch you can count your eggs whenever you want
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Here is a list of assumptions Bills fans seem to make about our team way too often: - Lee Evans just needs a legit #2 WR to be good - Fitz just needs a better OL and a TE - Spiller needs time to develop – he is going to be special - Urbik is going to develop into a starting RG - DBell just needs to stay healthy and go through a full season of weight training and he will be great - Mansfield Wrotto can develop into our starting RT - Troup is going to be our answer at NG - Carrington is going to develop into a great DE - Poz just needs a better DL in front of him - Whitner would be an all pro Safety if the front 7 was better - McKelvin will be a great lock down CB once we get a pass rush - Maybin just needs better coaching - Maybin just needs to put more effort into improving – he has all the talent just needs to put forth the effort - Merriman is going to be playing at one OLB spot - Batten is going to be at one ILB spot. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with any other these points, but I'm sure everyone reading this post has read someone else's post that contained one of these assumptions. Does anyone else find this insane? Assumptions.....insane....not saying I agree or disagree.... One of these things does not belong:flirt: Ragging aside...you make some good points. Fans are often unrealistically rosy in expectations, especially for favorite players. In the aggregate, the probability of all those expectations being fulfilled is slender indeed. The way I see it, until a player is actually proving themselves and playing well at a position, the team needs to be trying to get better at that position. I hope you would agree that there are different degrees of realism mixed into your list (just as they are in the posts you reference). Assessments and conclusions are mixed. For example, it seems a realistic assessment that the TE position has been MIA for the Bills, that for much of the season, the Bills OL was a patchwork, and that two key OL pieces were recovering from serious injury and couldn't put in the off-season work one would like. It may be reasonable to conclude that any QB who has shown some ability to start in the NFL would improve behind an improved OL and by addition of a quality TE. Whether Urbik, Bell and Wrotto will develop into quality OLmen remains to be seen - they have not yet proven themselves. Me, I would like to see the Bills keep drafting and acquiring OL talent through FA until the OL is widely recognized as top-quality. How far Fitz could improve behind a top quality OL remains to be seen. It's also realistic to assess the DL as pretty poor most of the season. It may be reasonable to conclude that the LB and DB would both look better behind a solid DL. Whether Troup and Carrington will become pieces on that quality DL remains to be seen. They have both gotten on the field and shown something - I would agree that it's pretty silly to think we don't need to acquire more top-potential DL talent even if they are good, we need depth and most quality teams rotate their DL to keep them fresh. Myself, I haven't seen the viewpoint that Whitner would be an all-pro safety behind a better front 7 or that McKelvin would be a lock-down corner. The viewpoint that Maybin just needs better coaching, or to put forth more effort, likewise- I haven't seen it. The viewpoint I see most often is that he's had the coaching, and he puts out the effort, the fact that he can't even make the field on 2nd teams is seen as an indication that he just "doesn't get it" either through lack of size/moves or lack of "football sense"/ability to learn the plays. Batten is a complete unknown. He might become a fine ILB. He might fill a spot on special teams. Or he might go home. I notice you don't mention Moats, yet he gets spoken of very highly by fans here.
akm0404 Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 Don't forget how James Hardy errrrr Marcus Easley is going to be the next superstar WR as soon as he's healthy
Pete Posted March 28, 2011 Posted March 28, 2011 - Maybin just needs better coaching - Maybin just needs to put more effort into improving – he has all the talent just needs to put forth the effort :lol:
weehawk Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Look. We still suck. Maybe we'll go 8-8 with the projected lineup. This team is still a few yrs away from making a run. If there's football, buy your season tix if you're hard-core and enjoy yourself if you can. Otherwise, get ready to work on your yard this fall and dont worry about the NFL. I think the best thing that can happen to the Bills is for the 2011 season to go bye-bye. In the meantime, enjoy the Sabres first-round exit and save your money. NY State is going to want a lot of more of it to pay for those ever-increasing public employees union benefits. Man I love living in a right to work state. Best thing I ever did was leave NY.
Dragonborn10 Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Here is a list of assumptions Bills fans seem to make about our team way too often: - Lee Evans just needs a legit #2 WR to be good - Fitz just needs a better OL and a TE - Spiller needs time to develop – he is going to be special - Urbik is going to develop into a starting RG - DBell just needs to stay healthy and go through a full season of weight training and he will be great - Mansfield Wrotto can develop into our starting RT - Troup is going to be our answer at NG - Carrington is going to develop into a great DE - Poz just needs a better DL in front of him - Whitner would be an all pro Safety if the front 7 was better - McKelvin will be a great lock down CB once we get a pass rush - Maybin just needs better coaching - Maybin just needs to put more effort into improving – he has all the talent just needs to put forth the effort - Merriman is going to be playing at one OLB spot - Batten is going to be at one ILB spot. I’m not saying I agree or disagree with any other these points, but I’m sure everyone reading this post has read someone else’s post that contained one of these assumptions. Does anyone else find this insane? I listed 2/3rds of the team – and every one has some excuse as to why they aren’t producing. Since when is a young player developing a sure thing? Most rookies don’t pan out – yet most assume that Troup, Spiller, Carrington and Moats are going to be our savior at their respective positions? People still have hope for Maybin? People don’t want us to draft Fairley or Dareus because we took Carrington and Troup last year??? I just read in one thread that someone didn’t want to draft Miller because we have moats and merriman already at OLB….Really? They aren’t sure things, not for this season or next or the one after, and even with them we are still weak at the position. At some point we have to stop making excuses for the players – we need to get better. We are drafting 3rd overall, that makes us the 30th best team in the league last year (out of 32 for those who cant count). 30th best – we need upgrades everywhere. We shouldn’t rely on Troup being our answer at NG because he didn’t show that he WAS the answer. We cannot let him be the reason we avoid another potentially great player. We cant expect Urbik to play like a playoff caliber G – if there is a great G prospect there at 34 we should nab him. We shouldn’t assume Whitner would be an all pro safety – because he isn’t an all pro safety. Hoping and praying that guys we already have are magically going to get better isn’t the way to build a Super Bowl Champion. Going out and getting players who get it done is. The guys on the team got us to 4-12, clearly they didn’t get it done. If we aren’t willing to replace players like Whitner and Evans and arent willing to invest more picks at weak positions like NG (Troup) and DE (Carrington) and LB(Poz/Merriman/Moats) then we are never going to get better. I got on a ramble but you get my point, we need better players everywhere, that means drafting at position where we recently added another guy and replacing average at best veterans with better players. You realize that the starting NG was an alternate to the ProBowl so I think everyone would agree having drafted a NT last year, it would be unwise to add another NT this year. I think everyone would agree a DE that can move down to DT from time to time like Dareus has value at 3. A dynamic pass rusher at 3 would be wise because as you correctly point out Merriman, Moats, and Maybin are crap shoots. What I think you are saying best however is the Bills suck. I think we all know that. Marv Levy destroyed this team. They were a borderline playoff team until Donahoe decided to take gambles with Parrish and McGahee. Had those been OL/DL picks this team would be much better. Levy followed with a tenure that was worse than Matt Millen's. Years of bad drafts have come to roost and without a superstar QB to cover-up the faults of the rest of the team - well we are what we are. Give Nix a chance to undo what has been done. There are a few pieces there. Much more to do.
The Cincinnati Kid Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 I'll say this: You are only as good as your weakest link. Maybe that means Poz can't do it all because the guys up front stink. Williams can't take on every blocker and make the play. We don't need guys to be GREAT at every position. We guys to be above average at what they do each down. We have some terrific players on this team (S. Johnson, Evans, Whitner, Williams, Poz, Jackson, Spiller, McKelvin, etc) but we need the guys around them to be solid. Troup doesn't have to be a pro-bowler. He just has to take blockers off Poz and Williams. Merriman doesn't have to get 12 sacks, he needs to be a threat for 12 sacks so Moats can get 6. Jackson doesn't have to run for 1000 yds, he needs to wear down tacklers so Spiller can go 75td. McKelvin doesn't need 7 ints, he needs 4 so Whitner can get 3 and Wilson can get 2 and Byrd can get 8. You see what I am saying? Its a team game. We don't need a superstar at each position. We need guys to do their job well so that other guys can do their job well. We need coaches that put guys in the right spots so that everyone can make plays. I don't care who throws the pass, as long as the guy is open. I don't care who is open as long as he catches it. I dont care who is blocking as long as they are blocking. You are only as good as your weakest link.
akm0404 Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Look. We still suck. Maybe we'll go 8-8 with the projected lineup. This team is still a few yrs away from making a run. If there's football, buy your season tix if you're hard-core and enjoy yourself if you can. Otherwise, get ready to work on your yard this fall and dont worry about the NFL. I think the best thing that can happen to the Bills is for the 2011 season to go bye-bye. In the meantime, enjoy the Sabres first-round exit and save your money. NY State is going to want a lot of more of it to pay for those ever-increasing public employees union benefits. Man I love living in a right to work state. Best thing I ever did was leave NY. If one of the burning questions of your life is how much stupid can fit in one message board post, you just had a really good day.
DukeyBomb Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 I think you are WAY to quick to write off all these players. As long as coaches aren't making excuses for these players it doesn't matter if the fans do or not. Matter fact that's all we CAN do because we don't know for sure the ins and outs of these players. If we knew we would be able to give definite answers as to why these players aren't excelling or how they should be able to excel. Most of those "EXCUSES" are actual legit reasons or have been at some point. So there is some merit to them in my opinion. Coaching has a lot to do with this stuff. You can't flip flop between your play books and expect these guys to be on the ball with everything every single time they go out. It takes time, it takes practice, it takes continuity. Once we get a little continuity in EVERY aspect of the game including bringing in the right players, we should be fine.
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