Coahces and FO stance on Fitz

[downunderbill]

I see what you are saying, but how does that make sense? If you believe your 28 year old QB can win a championship for you on a team devoid of talent at so many places, why would you consider drafting a QB at #3? The goal is to win a championship, so if your guy is good enough to do so, why draft a QB at #3, give him a massively larger contract than the guy you already have, have no idea if he will pan out in the NFL, and fail to improve the other holes on your team.

 

To me, its much more likely they are just trying to keep Fitz and the teams spirits high with all the buzz about us liking so many QB's, Wilsons public declaration that we need a QB, and the FO/Coaches saying they want to find a "10 year" guy when there existing QB is only 28.

 

Not to mention, what you just said doesnt add up in terms of you saying because we pick #3 it puts in a "spot" to look hard at a QB at #3. Well what about the 2nd? We very well, and maybe more likely, take a QB at the top of the 2nd where we are not in a "spot" where we have to take a QB as its the 35th pick in the draft, not the 3rd.

 

True. you got me there.

 

But i will lay it out there that i hasn't gone past nix to draft a quaterback when he's getting production out of a veteran. Bree's had a good year and the chargers still drafted Rivers. when it came to it Rivers won out. In the end that translated to getting a few draft pics for the first round pick they used on Rivers. in the long term, it turned out to be a good choice. (wait nix was with the chargers when that happened wasn't he?).

 

I'm not saying that the Bills won't draft a quaterback early, they are in year two of a rebuilding program we were told would take a few years so having two quaterbacks that could possibly get great value at a later date can turn out to be a good choice. With the draft being deep on defensive lineman, its very possible. I just don't think it means that they don't believe that fitz can get the job done.

[Alphadawg7]

True. you got me there.

 

But i will lay it out there that i hasn't gone past nix to draft a quaterback when he's getting production out of a veteran. Bree's had a good year and the chargers still drafted Rivers. when it came to it Rivers won out. In the end that translated to getting a few draft pics for the first round pick they used on Rivers. in the long term, it turned out to be a good choice. (wait nix was with the chargers when that happened wasn't he?).

 

I'm not saying that the Bills won't draft a quaterback early, they are in year two of a rebuilding program we were told would take a few years so having two quaterbacks that could possibly get great value at a later date can turn out to be a good choice. With the draft being deep on defensive lineman, its very possible. I just don't think it means that they don't believe that fitz can get the job done.

 

Honestly, I dont know if Nix was part of the drafting of Rivers or not. I may be wrong, but if memory serves me, Bress had yet to have a good season when they drafted Rivers.

 

Personally, I would rather us go D at #3 and then take one of the other prospects like Mallet, Ponder, Locker, or Kaepernick in the 2nd as they all have the same amount of risk to me and high cielings too.

[downunderbill]

Honestly, I dont know if Nix was part of the drafting of Rivers or not. I may be wrong, but if memory serves me, Bress had yet to have a good season when they drafted Rivers.

 

Personally, I would rather us go D at #3 and then take one of the other prospects like Mallet, Ponder, Locker, or Kaepernick in the 2nd as they all have the same amount of risk to me and high cielings too.

 

I thought bree's had a breakout year the year they drafted rivers. but i have done no fact checking and i'm not as sharp as i used to be.

 

I agree with you on your draft preference though. IMO we need a mean defender first.

[1billsfan]

I thought bree's had a breakout year the year they drafted rivers. but i have done no fact checking and i'm not as sharp as i used to be.

 

I agree with you on your draft preference though. IMO we need a mean defender first.

 

 

That's right, it was 2004. Drew Brees was a pretty bad QB until his 29th start which was the first game of the 2004 season (River's rookie year). It was literally as if a light turned on in his head...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//'>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//

 

 

 

I see Fitzpatrick as having that same kind of "light being turned on" moment in his 28th start which was the second to last game of 2009. Not as dramatic as Brees, but dramatic none the less...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//

[JohnC]

So what, neither did Gabbert, but I don't remember him ever being the discussion with Luck, even Mallet or Locker.

 

It's no secret Gabbert will be a top 2 QB.

 

Scouts also touted one JP Losman as a first round pick.

 

You missed the point. You made the argument that Gabbert was a media creation who came out of nowhere. I'm saying that is not the case. The scouts were aware of him. There wasn't much public attention paid to him because it was assumed he was going to stay in school for another year.

 

Due to the likelihood that BG was going to stay in school there wasn't much public discussion how he would be rated in this year's draft. As soon as he declared his intention to enter the draft he was rated as one of the upper tier qb prospects. What does that tell you? The scouts rated him highly since his declaration and that status has remained to the point that he is in the discussion as being the first player taken in the draft.

Edited March 26, 2011 by JohnC

[BADOLBILZ]

And too many posters are making that argument in a year when there is no franchise QB in the draft. You want to make a mistake that will set your team back ten years? Draft a QB very high who is not really a franchise QB so that you are forced to play him even when he doesn't have it, just because you picked him so high. Look up Carson Palmer and Alex Smith as examples.

 

At least with a bad pick like Maybin, you can admit your mistake and move on after a couple of years. But with a "franchise QB" pick who really isn't a franchise QB (i.e. Gabbert, Newton), you will stuck for at least five - seven years trying to figure out what to do with the guy, forced to play him.

 

It also entirely defeats the point of hiring a guy like Gailey, whose main merit is developing an offense that doesn't require a Peyton Manning to be successful.

 

No thanks. Not this year.

 

Whether or not there is a franchise QB in this draft remains to be seen.

 

Follow me:

 

Was Aaron Rodgers widely considered a franchise QB? Clearly not, he went in the mid-20's.

 

Was Drew Brees widely considered a franchise QB? Obviously not. He went early second round.

 

Those two QB's won the last two SB's.

 

There is no Manning in this draft, but if you are waiting for the son of a former All Pro QB then you will be a waitin' fool because there aren't enough Mannings to go around.

 

You have to take chances at QB. As for waiting around for them to develop, thus setting your team back, blah, blah.......WRONG.....if you have a young QB who hasn't emerged and you get a chance for another potential franchise QB then you try again. See the Chargers with Brees then Rivers.

 

The QB position is so far more important than any other positon in the NFL today that it isn't even right to lump them in with the rest.

 

If the league wants to make perennial dogass teams like the Bills a thing of the past then they should hold a separate QB-only version of the annual draft where every team, starting with the leagues worst team, gets a crack at the QB of their choice from that draft class in a 1 round draft. If the team drafting at the top just drafted their QB of the future the year before, they can trade that pick for a pick in the regular draft or a player.

 

THEN they can hold a separate draft for the rest of the positions so teams can address the less important positions you are so concerned about. Guys like Tommie Harris or Shawn Merriman....dynamic defensive players who are on their way out of the league at an age when QB's of similar talent are just entering their prime.

[Pirate Angel]

I keep seeing posters on this board use the comments and so called "endorsements" made about Fitz by our coaches and FO to defend Fitz as if to say the doubters are wrong because the people who matter (FO and coaches) believe in him. I find this puzzling, because a little common sense would tell you just the opposite is true in what they have publicly said many times.

 

1. FO/Coaches - They have said they love him as their QB, then follow it up with he is getting up there in age and they need to find a "10 year" guy who can be the man here for a decade.

 

2. Fitz is only 28 - When have you ever seen a franchise looking to replace a QB they believe in because he was too old at 28 years of age? He is young enough to be the man for 8 to 10 years in todays NFL if they really thought he was the guy they wanted to build this team around.

 

3. Why would a franchise so devoid of talent at so many key positions seriously consider using a high pick on a QB if the 28 year old QB on there roster was a guy they felt they could rebuild a team around?

 

In comparison, Aaron Rodgers is 27, does anyone actually think GB will be looking for a better long term solution after the 2011-2012 season is done because he is 28 years old? Do you think they would even consider for a second taking a QB in the first round if they had the #3 pick in the draft that year?

 

IMO, this might be the worst argument in any defense of Fitz...I am sure they see him as a great guy to run things until the prospect is ready to take his job, but clearly they are not ready to rebuild this team around him based on their comments and are not nearly as enamored with his season as some people around here.

What he said was if you have the oppurtunity to get a guy that can lead you team to playoffs for Ten years you have to take him because you dont know if youll get that opputunity again (meaning drafting as high as #3)..He believes in Fitz and that they can win with Fitz but he is not a Payton Manning-Tom Brady- Drew Brees- Phillip Rivers-Aaron Rodgers caliber player..which is the aim of every team to have.

[downunderbill]

That's right, it was 2004. Drew Brees was a pretty bad QB until his 29th start which was the first game of the 2004 season (River's rookie year). It was literally as if a light turned on in his head...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//'>http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//

 

 

 

I see Fitzpatrick as having that same kind of "light being turned on" moment in his 28th start which was the second to last game of 2009. Not as dramatic as Brees, but dramatic none the less...

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00/gamelog//

 

I meant to write that bree's had his breakout year the year before rivers was drafted, which blows my argument out of the water. Thanks for taking the the time to check though.

 

Fingers crossed its a sign if things to come.

Edited March 26, 2011 by downunderbill

[section122]

A little late to the party but yes. Wanted newton then want him now luck wouldn't have been available at our pick anyways.

[Campy]

I believe the coaches and front office believe he's the best QB on the roster.

 

Admittedly, Fitz may not be Kemp or Kelly, but he's not Losman or Johnson either. We have so many other holes to fill that are below average, I can see why they'd stand pat with average play out of the QB position.

 

Besides, it's not like they ever said Fitz is Canton-bound.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Honestly, I dont know if Nix was part of the drafting of Rivers or not. I may be wrong, but if memory serves me, Bress had yet to have a good season when they drafted Rivers.

 

Depends upon what you mean by "good season". Brees passed for >3200 yds in 2002, won 8 games - stats typically regarded as "promising" for a 2nd year player starting for his 1st year on a rebuilding team and similar to Bradford, who has been highly regarded for it in StL.

 

It's fair to say Brees was regarded as a "?" after SD had a poor start in 2003 and he was benched for Flutie (whose potential as a divisive force in the locker room has been underrecognized IMO), and was not considered "the franchise guy" when Rivers was drafted. Plus, unlike Rivers, the 6'0" Brees doesn't "look like you want your QB to look" in the NFL.

 

I'll take the Superbowl ring over the looks, thankyouverymuch. I think it goes to show you can't measure heart.

 

Personally, I would rather us go D at #3 and then take one of the other prospects like Mallet, Ponder, Locker, or Kaepernick in the 2nd as they all have the same amount of risk to me and high cielings too.

 

Cue one of those posts about how we Must...Draft...Franchise...QB....In...First....Round

[Doc]

The Bills will tout RF as the man until someone else comes along to supplant him. The guy had a decent season after being thrust into the starting role last year, has been a good leader on the field and a model citizen off of it. At present, there IS no better option. That could change if the Bills draft a QB and he turns out to be better. RF could also be a much better player after a full season and off-season in the system as a starter, a better OL (hopefully they find a RT), the young receivers maturing, and hopefully the addition of a TE.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

True. you got me there.

 

But i will lay it out there that i hasn't gone past nix to draft a quaterback when he's getting production out of a veteran. Bree's had a good year and the chargers still drafted Rivers. when it came to it Rivers won out. In the end that translated to getting a few draft pics for the first round pick they used on Rivers. in the long term, it turned out to be a good choice. (wait nix was with the chargers when that happened wasn't he?).

 

You're losing me here all round. Brees had a poor start and was benched for Flutie the season the Chargers drafted Rivers (2003 season, 2004 draft).

Rivers didn't "win out" - Brees had a fantastic year in 2004 and was franchised by SD and started in 2005.

Then he was injured, SD wasn't willing to pay an injured guy what Brees wanted, so he left as a FA.

 

Where did they get a few draft pics for the 1st round pick they used on Rivers?

Why long term was it a good choice to ditch Brees for Rivers when Brees has won a Superbowl? What has Rivers won? We don't care about playoff appearances, right, we want to win a Superbowl?

[Mr. WEO]

Honestly, I dont know if Nix was part of the drafting of Rivers or not. I may be wrong, but if memory serves me, Bress had yet to have a good season when they drafted Rivers.

 

Personally, I would rather us go D at #3 and then take one of the other prospects like Mallet, Ponder, Locker, or Kaepernick in the 2nd as they all have the same amount of risk to me and high cielings too.

Buddy and the Chargers didn't draft Rivers. They chose Manning.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Hold on...I see this all the time. This is such a convenient excuse and it gets to stop. There were many games where the D played good enough to win but the OFFENSE could not move the ball the bulk of the game. There were several games where Fitz had 50 yards or so at half time.

 

Dawg, in all honesty and meaning no offense (so to speak) I really don't think anything I or anyone else can say will persuade you of anything. I don't say this to be mean, just go back and read what you write.

Really, what evidence would persuade you? I don't know. The tip off is when someone takes the trouble to refute the "over the top" things you say like "last in every category" and you respond "LMAO" to them and re-define anything that's positive to be not important" instead of any form of acknowledgment.

 

So I can't motivate myself to do the "deep dive" into the box scores that would bring up the facts to refute, sorry for prejudging but my sense is you would respond "LMAO" and give them the bum's rush.

 

I'll say this. Typically, in my 30 years of watching football, when a team's offense has 50 yards at half time, it is not because "our D played good enough to win but the O could not move the ball".

It was because the O went 3-and-out, and the other team then had the ball for a long time because the D couldn't stop them and give it back. A simple way of looking at this is how many plays from scrimmage the D has (Bills were 29th) and their 3rd down percentage (Bills were 30th in 3rd downs allowed by the D). Then look at how many plays from scrimmage the O had (27th in the league) and how their 3rd down conversion percentage looked (18th in the league).

 

Good teams have offenses that go 3-and-out -- then their D gets the ball back into the hands of their offense to try again until they get it right.

 

Fitz did not have 50 yds at half time. The Bills team had 50 yds at half time.

 

It's one thing to have a viewpoint, and defend it rationally. It's another to shade and pick and choose what evidence you accept until you look like "V" for "Vendetta".

[Alphadawg7]

Dawg, in all honesty and meaning no offense (so to speak) I really don't think anything I or anyone else can say will persuade you of anything. I don't say this to be mean, just go back and read what you write.

Really, what evidence would persuade you? I don't know. The tip off is when someone takes the trouble to refute the "over the top" things you say like "last in every category" and you respond "LMAO" to them and re-define anything that's positive to be not important" instead of any form of acknowledgment.

 

 

No offense taken, and totally understand.

 

I hear what you are saying, but if you read the posts of the people I am responding too with those, the LMAO is directly targeted at a pure manipulation of information, flat out lie, name calling, ignoring the actual posts, or complete disregard for what was actually asked of the poster. For instance, you would get a LMAO by the sheer fact you, like the other poster who got it, just again misquoted what I said...I never at any point in any thread have ever said Fitz was "last in every category" let alone last in a single category.

 

Thats where the frustration comes in those posts when someone changes what I said to make it look wrong so they can attack that statement rather than discuss the points presented to them. For instance, what I have said is that he is in the bottom part of the league in many of key categories QB's are judged on. I have never even said he was last in a single category, let alone every one, because its not true. Some of the categories he is closer to the middle of the pack but still on the wrong side of it, and some others he is in the bottom third of the league or near the bottom.

 

You will notice, that the comments you are referring to are also predominantly with the same poster who continues to dodge factual information then manipulate stuff to try and make it look false.

 

I have agreed on many occassions with people who disagreed with what I think about Fitzs season, those just get lost in the shuffle because they dont go on and on like the ones where someone just keeps going on and on with lies, BS, manipulation, or insults.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Alphadawg7

[1billsfan]

No offense taken, and totally understand.

 

I hear what you are saying, but if you read the posts of the people I am responding too with those, the LMAO is directly targeted at a pure manipulation of information, flat out lie, name calling, ignoring the actual posts, or complete disregard for what was actually asked of the poster. For instance, you would get a LMAO by the sheer fact you, like the other poster who got it, just again misquoted what I said...I never at any point in any thread have ever said Fitz was "last in every category" let alone last in a single category.

 

Thats where the frustration comes in those posts when someone changes what I said to make it look wrong so they can attack that statement rather than discuss the points presented to them. For instance, what I have said is that he is in the bottom part of the league in many of key categories QB's are judged on. I have never even said he was last in a single category, let alone every one, because its not true. Some of the categories he is closer to the middle of the pack but still on the wrong side of it, and some others he is in the bottom third of the league or near the bottom.

 

You will notice, that the comments you are referring to are also predominantly with the same poster who continues to dodge factual information then manipulate stuff to try and make it look false.

 

I have agreed on many occassions with people who disagreed with what I think about Fitzs season, those just get lost in the shuffle because they dont go on and on like the ones where someone just keeps going on and on with lies, BS, manipulation, or insults.

 

 

 

When it comes to Ryan Fitzpatrick, you're all about lies, BS, manipulation...LOL

 

Let me ask you something, if the Panthers take Newton (which I think they will), what do you want the Bills to do to rectify the QB position? Seriously, what is your plan? Who do you take or try to get? Stop with the Fitzpatrick bashing and get down to who you want for the Bills future elite, franchise QB? Have you even addressed this yet? We get that you don't like Fitzpatrick and you don't think he's the answer. Stop with the passive aggressive stuff about liking Fitzpatrick then beating him in the head a few times the rest of the paragraphs and tell us who you want!!!!!

Edited March 26, 2011 by 1billsfan

[Alphadawg7]

When it comes to Ryan Fitzpatrick, you're all about lies, BS, manipulation...LOL

 

Let me ask you something, if the Panthers take Newton (which I think they will), what do you want the Bills to do to rectify the QB position? Seriously, what is your plan? Who do you take or try to get? Stop with the Fitzpatrick bashing and get down to who you want for the Bills future elite, franchise QB? Have you even addressed this yet? We get that you don't like Fitzpatrick and you don't think he's the answer. Stop with the passive aggressive stuff about liking Fitzpatrick then beating him in the head a few times the rest of the paragraphs and tell us who you want!!!!!

 

Really? I have addressed it dozens of threads, in fact, many threads on the front page of the board now.

 

My preference is to go D at #3 and then go QB in the 2nd as I dont see Mallet, Locker, Ponder, or Kaepernick having any more risk than Newton or Gabbert with just as high of an upside. So would prefer we grab one of them in the 2nd and a stud D player with the #3 pick...win win in my book. I am ok with Newton/Gabbert at 3 if the FO thinks they are the guy for us, but still not my preference.

 

I want Fitz to start next year, maybe even for 2 years, while our prospects develops. I have said many times, I like Fitz as a guy to lead while we bring someone along slowly.

 

In all honestly, you are getting a bit pathetic with the lies/manipulation stuff. Just stop, I have not lied about anything...you like to change what I said to make it look like a lie, but nothing I said was. You on the other hand are the king of that in most of your posts and threads and have been called out on it by many posters in multiple threads. Again, we will continue to have to agree to disagree on the quality of Fitzs season and leave it at that.

I dont hate Fitz, I love how he plays with heart and wish we had more people like that on this team. I just do not think he is good enough to build this team around and that we need to upgrade his position now becuase its going to take a year or two to develop a rookie properly.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Alphadawg7

[1billsfan]

Really? I have addressed it dozens of threads, in fact, many threads on the front page of the board now.

 

My preference is to go D at #3 and then go QB in the 2nd as I dont see Mallet, Locker, Ponder, or Kaepernick having any more risk than Newton or Gabbert with just as high of an upside. So would prefer we grab one of them in the 2nd and a stud D player with the #3 pick...win win in my book. I am ok with Newton/Gabbert at 3 if the FO thinks they are the guy for us, but still not my preference.

 

I want Fitz to start next year, maybe even for 2 years, while our prospects develops. I have said many times, I like Fitz as a guy to lead while we bring someone along slowly.

 

In all honestly, you are getting a bit pathetic with the lies/manipulation stuff. Just stop, I have not lied about anything...you like to change what I said to make it look like a lie, but nothing I said was. You on the other hand are the king of that in most of your posts and threads and have been called out on it by many posters in multiple threads. Again, we will continue to have to agree to disagree on the quality of Fitzs season and leave it at that.

I dont hate Fitz, I love how he plays with heart and wish we had more people like that on this team. I just do not think he is good enough to build this team around and that we need to upgrade his position now becuase its going to take a year or two to develop a rookie properly.

 

 

I read somewhere where the failure rate of 2nd round QBs is around 85%. Just sayin'.

 

BTW, I think the only QB who will end up being a better NFL quarterback than Ryan Fitzpatrick when all is said and done is Cam Newton. Spending a second round pick on this rag tag group (remember 85%) would be throwing a high pick away IMO. I'd like them getting Tyrod Taylor in the fourth.

[Alphadawg7]

I read somewhere where the failure rate of 2nd round QBs is around 85%. Just sayin'.

 

BTW, I think the only QB who will end up being a better NFL quarterback than Ryan Fitzpatrick when all is said and done is Cam Newton. Spending a second round pick on this rag tag group (remember 85%) would be throwing a high pick away IMO. I'd like them getting Tyrod Taylor in the fourth.

 

Brady was a 6th round pick and had one of the worst combines ever...just saying. Brees was a 2nd round pick...just sayinng.

 

Poiint is, you dont pass on a player because of some meaningless stat that has literally zero to do with the player you are about to draft and their personal ability to succeed at the next level...Otherwise, why even hold the draft at all past the first round since just about every position busts more than it hits.