Wisconsin Judge temporarily blocks Walker bill

[pBills]

I looked up this "boycott" thing. Turns out the union demanded M&I back them in this fight, but the bank stated they prefer to remain neutral in the situation, not taking either side. But because the bank didnt side with the union, the union goes ahead and boycotts them...and any other business that doesnt go along.

 

Union thuggery at its finest.

 

Here is the statement:

 

"M&I has not taken, and will not take, a position either for or against the budget repair bill. As M&I has publicly stated before:

 

M&I has not contributed to any candidate and did not contribute to Governor Walker or Mayor Barrett in the last gubernatorial election.

 

M&I has over 6,000 employees in Wisconsin, and, in the great tradition of political freedom in this country, those employees have the right to contribute to the candidate of their choice.

 

M&I employees contributed to both Wisconsin gubernatorial candidates in the last election.

 

M&I is proud of our tradition of standing with teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees to support, improve, and grow Wisconsin communities. M&I has 188 branches in cities, towns, and villages throughout Wisconsin, and M&I employees work side-by-side with these dedicated public employees in civic endeavors across the state.”

 

 

So basically the bank itself didn't contribute or back a politician, yet it's executives did. You keep saying union thuggery (F'ing stupid)... yet you ignore the real thuggery that Republican politicians did in Wisconsin. Should we recap? Ask for unions to give concessions - they do. Not good enough for them, after all they LIED it wasn't about the budget it was about union busting. Then they attempt to push a bill through with NO debate, which forces Democrats (who wanted debate) to leave the state in an attempt to delay the Bill. OH,still not good enough for Republicans... they then remove the part of the Bill that dealt with the State budget (again proving it wasn't about the deficit) and then broke the Open Meeting Law and forced the Bill through.

 

Did you ever mention that thuggery? Ummm, no. I guess it's ok to attack teachers, nurses and other state employees. Hell, some teachers get summers off right? It's to bad that teachers also have to pay for a lot of their classroom supplies out of their own pockets, help families through counseling and donations to those who are in need. Damn those teachers. They get so much and have so much at retirement. Screw them. :wallbash:

 

Can you explain to me the reason unions are necessary.

 

 

Why are they not? Is that because you believe that companies ALWAYS treat their employees fairly? They ALWAYS pay fair wages and safe working conditions? They ALWAYS abide by the labor laws? Oh, that's right, I'll get the same ol' statement, "if you don't like your job leave". Yeah, easy to do with unemployment at over 9%. Again, it's always ok for the CEO's and other executives to abuse their power yet when the workers want to have a voice it's a bad thing. I say that's BS.

Edited March 19, 2011 by pBills

[Chef Jim]

Why are they not? Is that because you believe that companies ALWAYS treat their employees fairly? They ALWAYS pay fair wages and safe working conditions? They ALWAYS abide by the labor laws? Oh, that's right, I'll get the same ol' statement, "if you don't like your job leave". Yeah, easy to do with unemployment at over 9%. Again, it's always ok for the CEO's and other executives to abuse their power yet when the workers want to have a voice it's a bad thing. I say that's BS.

 

But this whole thing is not about corporations now is it.

 

Answer me this. Why are public unions necessary?

Edited March 19, 2011 by Chef Jim

[Fezmid]

Ask for unions to give concessions - they do. Not good enough for them, after all they LIED it wasn't about the budget it was about union busting.

Why do you continue to misrepresent this? You make it sound like they were asked to contribute more, the union said yes, then the Republicans said, "Oooh, they conceded to that, let's ask for more!" The bill included BOTH at the same time.

 

they then remove the part of the Bill that dealt with the State budget (again proving it wasn't about the deficit)

More misrepresentation. How does removing the appropriations portion of the bill "prove" that it wasn't about the deficit?

 

I guess it's ok to attack teachers, nurses and other state employees. Hell, some teachers get summers off right? It's to bad that teachers also have to pay for a lot of their classroom supplies out of their own pockets, help families through counseling and donations to those who are in need. Damn those teachers. They get so much and have so much at retirement. Screw them. :wallbash:

Another part of the union play book -- "They're attacking teachers!" No, they're not. They're protecting the budget by targeting UNIONS. Teachers != unions. Just because teachers are IN a union, doesn't mean that people are attacking them personally. Teachers are great. Unions that represent teachers, force their will upon the state, encourage a strike to shutdown schools are NOT great.

 

They ALWAYS pay fair wages and safe working conditions? They ALWAYS abide by the labor laws? Oh, that's right, I'll get the same ol' statement, "if you don't like your job leave". Yeah, easy to do with unemployment at over 9%.

 

There are already laws on the books protecting working conditions and labor laws. A union isn't required to protect those. If a private sector employee is being unfairly treated or working in crappy conditions, then how about following the laws in place? Why does the union have to be the middle man here?

[boyst]

How can we vote on this issue like a few people have mentioned? I am still engrained with the credo of the Union by my teachers in Ohio. In elementary school the teachers protested 2 or 3 times alone for new contracts and levies. Entire days would be filled with them explaining to us how the system worked, how they had to fight for their job because their pay was not enough. To a 12 year old you didn't question if your teacher was good or bad and you would feel bad for them marching across the street on their sick day.

 

The teachers have used the kids as pawns and ultimately have failed the system time and time again. There are AMAZING teachers out there but by-in-large I cannot fathom the idea that all of them truly earn their money like those in the private sector.

 

Any world we live in where a trash man collects 3 to 4 times more then a teacher shows you the reality of the situation as a whole in so many ways.

[pBills]

But this whole thing is not about corporations now is it.

 

Answer me this. Why are public unions necessary?

 

 

I just listed the reasons.

 

Why do you continue to misrepresent this? You make it sound like they were asked to contribute more, the union said yes, then the Republicans said, "Oooh, they conceded to that, let's ask for more!" The bill included BOTH at the same time. The governor stated his reasoning for Collective Bargaining part was because he expected the unions to not give concessions. They did. It should have ended there.

 

 

More misrepresentation. How does removing the appropriations portion of the bill "prove" that it wasn't about the deficit? He was willing to remove the portion of the bill that dealt with the budget to union bust. Again, no need to go that far.

 

 

Another part of the union play book -- "They're attacking teachers!" No, they're not. They're protecting the budget by targeting UNIONS. Teachers != unions. Just because teachers are IN a union, doesn't mean that people are attacking them personally. Teachers are great. Unions that represent teachers, force their will upon the state, encourage a strike to shutdown schools are NOT great. When you go after ones contract, ones livelihood... yeah I would say they are attacking teachers. Sorry if you believe the Governors actions are completely legit and he didn't want to union bust. Give me a break about this forcing their will on the state nonsense. Teachers receive fair wages, benefits and a pension. How is that forcing their will on the State, especially when teachers give so much for their free time and hard earned money to their students and school.

 

 

 

There are already laws on the books protecting working conditions and labor laws. A union isn't required to protect those. If a private sector employee is being unfairly treated or working in crappy conditions, then how about following the laws in place? Why does the union have to be the middle man here? Ok,so you truly believe and trust that all companies will follow those laws. How about people being scared to lose their jobs or worse if they whistleblow against the company. Union support is necessary.

[Chef Jim]

I just listed the reasons.

 

 

 

No you listed the reasons for private sector unions. So you're saying the government can't be trusted either?

[Fezmid]

We're just going around and around -- so I'll ignore the rest of your misrepresentations (oh, the poor teachers!) and ask one follow-up question:

 

Union support is necessary.

If union support is a necessity, why are less than 10% of people in Wisconsin part of a union? What's going on with the other 90% of the people in the state?

 

I haven't confirmed, but I suspect those percentages are pretty accurate across the entire country.

 

Are you trying to say that 10% of the country is protecting the other 90%?

[pBills]

No you listed the reasons for private sector unions. So you're saying the government can't be trusted either?

 

 

Obviously not with the actions of Governor Walker. Honestly, I believe that in every industry there are people that abuse the workers and their rights. Having unions can help prevent those abuses.

[GG]

We're just going around and around -- so I'll ignore the rest of your misrepresentations

 

I guess you haven't visited the dark side too often, otherwise you would know this board's truism.

[boyst]

I just listed the reasons.

A Union backing a politician is gold and far more influencing then a bank or corporation. Something can be said about the amounts of money that the banks contribute but only so much can be done. A Union, on the other hand, can have signs at every house and work at rallys a lot better then the corporation. I do not think M&I will be able to do that. Yet, the Unions can strong arm instituions just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and when they do not back them they smear them.

 

Not to mention that Union members will contribute large amounts of money themselves. As a Union they'll give as much as they can but individually members will contribute, too. On top of that there are always scandals of individual members being "given" money to put towards a campaigning endorsement.

 

Now, as far as teachers making their own purchases for their classrooms? So-the-F-what. It is their choice to do that and they are in a job they have a passion for (or so you'd like to believe - and so would I despite the evidence against it). They are provided the things they need to teach a class and if they want to bedazzle their students names on the wall then thats up to them. There is a reason schools do not spend money to have a giant poster of Pooh Bear on the wall...it is not education. Teachers also get allowances and through fund raisers and PTA's earn money to use for their classrooms.

 

Personally, as far as if I believe companies ALWAYS treat their employees correctly? No, there is no way. But, I have been in several union jobs and I know that these places do not ALWAYS treat their members correctly, either. There is never going to be a perfect world and I will go back to a book I learned in school called "The Giver." Read it, then read "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." You and him might have a lot in common.

 

Again, I am not anti-Union I just do not see the point of it in many ways. It nurses the weak which is entirely against nature. Maybe I am a hard-ass person but I believe if you can't cut it in life you need to find something else you can do and if it washing windshields at the carwash then so be it. Unions are not the problem and businesses are not the problem in your world - the problem is simply that people are not perfect and you think a Union will make things better towards it.

 

Obviously not with the actions of Governor Walker. Honestly, I believe that in every industry there are people that abuse the workers and their rights. Having unions can help prevent those abuses.

...protect them from what? Sweat shops? Being forced to work 90 hour work weeks? The monster under the bed? Come on man, this is 2011.

[pBills]

We're just going around and around -- so I'll ignore the rest of your misrepresentations (oh, the poor teachers!) and ask one follow-up question:

 

 

If union support is a necessity, why are less than 10% of people in Wisconsin part of a union? What's going on with the other 90% of the people in the state?

 

I haven't confirmed, but I suspect those percentages are pretty accurate across the entire country.

 

Are you trying to say that 10% of the country is protecting the other 90%?

 

 

 

There's no denying that union membership has fallen to 11.9% in Wisconsin and around the country. However, polls have also shown that over 60% support the union and collective bargaining. What does that tell you? Maybe that Republicans are reaching a bit to far? Did you also know that over 20,000 Wisconsinites have joined Working America?

[Chef Jim]

Obviously not with the actions of Governor Walker. Honestly, I believe that in every industry there are people that abuse the workers and their rights. Having unions labor laws can help prevent those abuses.

[boyst]

There's no denying that union membership has fallen to 11.9% in Wisconsin and around the country. However, polls have also shown that over 60% support the union and collective bargaining. What does that tell you? Maybe that Republicans are reaching a bit to far? Did you also know that over 20,000 Wisconsinites have joined Working America?

We are a nation of uninformed, easily influenced idiots.

As proof, we voted for Bush once...then Obama to try to "fix" that...

 

Obviously not with the actions of Governor Walker. Honestly, I believe that in every industry there are people that abuse the workers and their rights. Having unions labor laws can help prevent those abuses.

 

Too many people they cannot trust the government to enforce those laws...remember, to them, government is bad. Those big bad business will pay the big bad politicians to turn their head because they're republicans and they are slime then surely they must not have morals, right?

Edited March 19, 2011 by jboyst62

[pBills]

A Union backing a politician is gold and far more influencing then a bank or corporation. Something can be said about the amounts of money that the banks contribute but only so much can be done. A Union, on the other hand, can have signs at every house and work at rallys a lot better then the corporation. I do not think M&I will be able to do that. Yet, the Unions can strong arm instituions just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and when they do not back them they smear them. So it's poor companies right? Give me a break, with Supreme Court ruling corporations can open up their pocket books awfully wide. And corporations don't pay to have politicians smeared? Come on.

 

Not to mention that Union members will contribute large amounts of money themselves. As a Union they'll give as much as they can but individually members will contribute, too. On top of that there are always scandals of individual members being "given" money to put towards a campaigning endorsement. Union members can only give up to a certain amount via PAC funds. Volunteer basis. In many unions, who the union supports is based on membership polling

 

Now, as far as teachers making their own purchases for their classrooms? So-the-F-what. It is their choice to do that and they are in a job they have a passion for (or so you'd like to believe - and so would I despite the evidence against it). They are provided the things they need to teach a class and if they want to bedazzle their students names on the wall then thats up to them. There is a reason schools do not spend money to have a giant poster of Pooh Bear on the wall...it is not education. Teachers also get allowances and through fund raisers and PTA's earn money to use for their classrooms. So let's take away benefits from teachers and screw them for caring about the kids in their classroom? Doing what they do on the side IS passion. It takes passion to create a fun learning environment. I don't what school system you are part of, but here it doesn't quite work that way. Hell with cuts they literally have about 2 cases of plain paper left for the school year. Teachers have been buying paper out of their own pockets, plus union printers I know are donating paper to the schools as well.

 

Personally, as far as if I believe companies ALWAYS treat their employees correctly? No, there is no way. But, I have been in several union jobs and I know that these places do not ALWAYS treat their members correctly, either. There is never going to be a perfect world and I will go back to a book I learned in school called "The Giver." Read it, then read "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." You and him might have a lot in common. No doubt both sides need fine tuning. But to say that unions don't have a place in society anymore is foolish.

 

Again, I am not anti-Union I just do not see the point of it in many ways. It nurses the weak which is entirely against nature. Maybe I am a hard-ass person but I believe if you can't cut it in life you need to find something else you can do and if it washing windshields at the carwash then so be it. Unions are not the problem and businesses are not the problem in your world - the problem is simply that people are not perfect and you think a Union will make things better towards it. Nurses the weak? Come on, how about protects. Hell, I have personally seen people that are new to this country being scared shitless, told they were going to lose their new citizenship if they didn't work hours that were illegal in the transportation industry. Even people who can "cut it" as you say, need protection and support from the unions.

 

 

...protect them from what? Sweat shops? Being forced to work 90 hour work weeks? The monster under the bed? Come on man, this is 2011. As stated above, yes protecting them from being forced into working 90 hour weeks, unsafe working environments, losing benefits and wages - making them unfair. It happens. Although, in your mind... it's 2011 all businesses follow the law because the law is in place. HAHAHA

[Chef Jim]

About 7% of the private sector employees are in a union and I don't see too many people working 7 days a week, 90 hours and being denied overtime. So what's the need?

[pBills]

About 7% of the private sector employees are in a union and I don't see too many people working 7 days a week, 90 hours and being denied overtime. So what's the need?

 

 

So because you don't see it, it doesn't exist right?

[boyst]

A Union backing a politician is gold and far more influencing then a bank or corporation. Something can be said about the amounts of money that the banks contribute but only so much can be done. A Union, on the other hand, can have signs at every house and work at rallys a lot better then the corporation. I do not think M&I will be able to do that. Yet, the Unions can strong arm instituions just like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and when they do not back them they smear them. So it's poor companies right? Give me a break, with Supreme Court ruling corporations can open up their pocket books awfully wide. And corporations don't pay to have politicians smeared? Come on.

Never said it wasn't fair or right, but the axe goes both ways...that was my point. On the news you see the major headlines are that Local BFA 414314 supports Joe Johnson...not CEO of BOA supports Cindy Whoo

 

 

Not to mention that Union members will contribute large amounts of money themselves. As a Union they'll give as much as they can but individually members will contribute, too. On top of that there are always scandals of individual members being "given" money to put towards a campaigning endorsement. Union members can only give up to a certain amount via PAC funds. Volunteer basis. In many unions, who the union supports is based on membership polling

And there are always ways around it, when there is money involved their is always a way around it. 10,000 union members can support a campaign just as much as 100 exectuvives at a corportation. Again, the axe goes both ways.

 

 

Now, as far as teachers making their own purchases for their classrooms? So-the-F-what. It is their choice to do that and they are in a job they have a passion for (or so you'd like to believe - and so would I despite the evidence against it). They are provided the things they need to teach a class and if they want to bedazzle their students names on the wall then thats up to them. There is a reason schools do not spend money to have a giant poster of Pooh Bear on the wall...it is not education. Teachers also get allowances and through fund raisers and PTA's earn money to use for their classrooms. So let's take away benefits from teachers and screw them for caring about the kids in their classroom? Doing what they do on the side IS passion. It takes passion to create a fun learning environment. I don't what school system you are part of, but here it doesn't quite work that way. Hell with cuts they literally have about 2 cases of plain paper left for the school year. Teachers have been buying paper out of their own pockets, plus union printers I know are donating paper to the schools as well.

No, lets simply realize that our education system is failing and their is only so many ways you can point the finger before it falls on the teachers themselves. Whether it is the training they are getting or the No Child Left Behind crap, somewhere along the way teachers are failing us and ultimately it comes down to them. They are the last stop when it comes to educating our children and if what they are being told to do is not right for the children then they need to do something about that and not worry about what they are being paid to do. Since it is their passion then financial compensation should not be a factor, right?

 

Schools and teachers get more from corporate donations then Unions. Box Tops for Education, kick-backs on computers and equipment, school buses, etc. Axe...both...ways.

 

Personally, as far as if I believe companies ALWAYS treat their employees correctly? No, there is no way. But, I have been in several union jobs and I know that these places do not ALWAYS treat their members correctly, either. There is never going to be a perfect world and I will go back to a book I learned in school called "The Giver." Read it, then read "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty." You and him might have a lot in common. No doubt both sides need fine tuning. But to say that unions don't have a place in society anymore is foolish.

 

The Unions place in this economny right now should be one thing = ensuring that people are fairly compensated for what they do instead of trying to get the most they can out of the shallow well of Government. Gov does need fixing but it is not the Union who should demand it or spurn it. When the Union can convince me that the guy who drives a snow plow earns his $200,000 in OT a year more so then the teacher who makes $35,000 then maybe I will change my tune. A teacher is not a glam job but it surely is not hard in the structure we have in this country. A structure that is failing our children.

 

Again, I am not anti-Union I just do not see the point of it in many ways. It nurses the weak which is entirely against nature. Maybe I am a hard-ass person but I believe if you can't cut it in life you need to find something else you can do and if it washing windshields at the carwash then so be it. Unions are not the problem and businesses are not the problem in your world - the problem is simply that people are not perfect and you think a Union will make things better towards it. Nurses the weak? Come on, how about protects. Hell, I have personally seen people that are new to this country being scared shitless, told they were going to lose their new citizenship if they didn't work hours that were illegal in the transportation industry. Even people who can "cut it" as you say, need protection and support from the unions.

Working at UPS for 2 years I saw the power of the Union protect people coming to work high and endangering myself. I saw people run over boxes without a care endangering the product. I spoke with Union leaders who insisted that these incidents were something I should not worry about because I need to worry about the job I do and not about other Union members. I guess worrying about my personal safety and the safety of the company comes second @ UPS' Union.

As far as people coming to this country that you have seen personally become victims...they made their choices and if they cannot cut it then they can starve and live on the streets. Or, they can go back to their country. That's reality, that's life.

 

...protect them from what? Sweat shops? Being forced to work 90 hour work weeks? The monster under the bed? Come on man, this is 2011. As stated above, yes protecting them from being forced into working 90 hour weeks, unsafe working environments, losing benefits and wages - making them unfair. It happens. Although, in your mind... it's 2011 all businesses follow the law because the law is in place. HAHAHA

I have worked many jobs @ 90 hours a week that were not Union and loved it. I got paid good. How is it unfair? They have a job. No where on this countries most famous documents does it say that someone should be promised benefits and anything beyond minimum wage (which is flawed!). We have documents that are designed to provide safe working enviroments and we need to live up to them. Unfortunately, the Union feels it is their job to make sure these standards are met...and that is a major problem.

[Chef Jim]

So because you don't see it, it doesn't exist right?

 

Give me some examples of where it does. And how prevalent it is.

[....lybob]

 

Too many people they cannot trust the government to enforce those laws...remember, to them, government is bad. Those big bad business will pay the big bad politicians to turn their head because they're republicans and they are slime then surely they must not have morals, right?

 

Pretty much true since Milton Friedman became the guru of modern business

 

Friedman advised corporate managers to avoid

interjecting personal values into matters such as environmental concerns or community interests if shareholder wealth is threatened. Thus, for instance, the responsible manager will close or relocate plants whenever he can improve the profitability of his operations by so doing, even if this causes hardship to employees and will only follow the strict letter of the law in avoiding pollution or other communal externalities . In marketing, “buyer beware” is the tocsin.

 

Thus you cannot appeal to people who follow this business philosophy (most) on a morale or human level- you can only effect change by changing their profitability equation.

[pBills]

Give me some examples of where it does. And how prevalent it is.

 

 

How about you give me examples where it doesn't happen? Hell look at all of the Labor Violation Walmart had years ago. I also just stated another reason above within the transportation industry.