Wonderlic Scores Are Out

[ajzepp]

I believe they have to use more than film when a guy is from a small school in a Non-Major conference. The competition is different. If a guy impresses on film, there's no way you'll be able to tell how he'll do vs NFL competition.

 

A player from the SEC that excels would most likely excel at the NFL level.

 

Right, but my point is this: What exactly do you expect to be impressed by when a guy is just out there playing catch? Even against lesser competition, what he can do in the face of a living, breathing defense is far more indicative of ability than throwing routes by himself to uncovered receivers. It's not so much that they have pro days that I take issue with. I'm sure they're a great way to spend time with the prospect and get to know him better. What I take issue with is the absurd stock that so many place in these things. It's laughable when there are reports about how so and so was impressive during their pro day...how can they possibly screw that up??

[NoSaint]

Right, but my point is this: What exactly do you expect to be impressed by when a guy is just out there playing catch? Even against lesser competition, what he can do in the face of a living, breathing defense is far more indicative of ability than throwing routes by himself to uncovered receivers. It's not so much that they have pro days that I take issue with. I'm sure they're a great way to spend time with the prospect and get to know him better. What I take issue with is the absurd stock that so many place in these things. It's laughable when there are reports about how so and so was impressive during their pro day...how can they possibly screw that up??

 

id put little stock in an impressive day unless there was a certain issue you were really keying in on (arm strength, accuracy) or something they werent asked to do in school (tebows throwing motion, cams footwork under center etc...)

 

otherwise, its just about making sure they do what they are supposed to do. the absence of failure being an accomplishment i suppose.

 

 

like jake locker in the skills challenge earlier this offseason not being able to hit anything is worrisome. ill be curious to see his accuracy specifically. if hes not able to do it in shorts with no pass rush at this point.... yikes.

[ajzepp]

id put little stock in an impressive day unless there was a certain issue you were really keying in on (arm strength, accuracy) or something they werent asked to do in school (tebows throwing motion, cams footwork under center etc...)

 

otherwise, its just about making sure they do what they are supposed to do. the absence of failure being an accomplishment i suppose.

 

 

like jake locker in the skills challenge earlier this offseason not being able to hit anything is worrisome. ill be curious to see his accuracy specifically. if hes not able to do it in shorts with no pass rush at this point.... yikes.

 

The whole locker thing has been really interesting for me. I have only seen the guy play twice, and that was this past season. Last year, he was all the rage and everyone was hoping the guy would come out in the draft, etc. What a fall from grace! He's gone from being potentially one of the top prospects in the draft to some lunk head who can't hit the side of a barn lol.

[NoSaint]

The whole locker thing has been really interesting for me. I have only seen the guy play twice, and that was this past season. Last year, he was all the rage and everyone was hoping the guy would come out in the draft, etc. What a fall from grace! He's gone from being potentially one of the top prospects in the draft to some lunk head who can't hit the side of a barn lol.

 

i think it was a lot of draftnik hype. i dont know though. every now and again you see one of these "scout mock drafts" and hes going like 10th to washington. maybe those scouts are hoping someone else takes him early so their guys fall to them.... based on what ive seen i truly believe when he asked the advisory board for a grade last year it came back as a 2nd or 3rd round, not a #1 pick like mcshay(?) had been drumming.

 

the accuracy issue hasnt gotten better from last year which certainly doesnt help either.

[BiggieScooby]

Chad Pennington is a prime example of good brain, not so good arm. Give that guy a gun and I think we'd be talking about him as we do Manning & Brady. There is a difference between intelligence and being able to process things quickly. Some people with high IQs are very slow processors of information. The ability to read a defense is god-given. There is a reason Magic Johnson could play point guard at 6'9'', while most guys that height are trying not to trip. Cam Newton & Blaine Gabbert have proven they can make 1 to 2 reads per play so far, their success in the NFL will depend greatly on making the transition to 3 to 4 reads. Colt McCoy proved to us all last year that he had the talent, despite ideal size, but has the ability to make NFL reads & adjustments.

Edited March 19, 2011 by BiggieScooby

[benbillsfan]

Use in the NFL CombineThough used in a variety of institutions, the Wonderlic test has become best known for its use in the NFL pre-draft assessments of prospective football players.

 

This assessment roughly corresponds to examples from Paul Zimmerman's The New Thinking Man's Guide to Pro Football. According to Zimmerman, examples of average scores for each position are:

 

Offensive tackle – 26

Center – 25

Quarterback – 24 (Most teams want at least 21 for a quarterback.)[6]

Guard – 23

Tight end – 22

Safety – 19

Linebacker – 19

Cornerback – 18

Wide receiver – 17

Fullback – 17

Halfback – 16

Pat McInally, a graduate of Harvard University is the only football player to record a confirmed perfect score of 50.[7] Ryan Fitzpatrick, also a Harvard graduate and currently a quarterback with the NFL Buffalo Bills, had also been rumored to have scored a perfect 50 points in only nine minutes.[8] However, Fitzpatrick denied this, saying that he had left at least one of the 50 answer spaces blank.[9] The Wall Street Journal later reported that Fitzpatrick's actual score was 48 but that Fitzpatrick's claim of completing the Wonderlic in only nine minutes was accurate (this report appeared in the September 30, 2005 edition of the WSJ in the Weekend Section). As of 2005, Miami Dolphins wide receiver Kevin Curtis, a graduate of Utah State University, was reported to be tied with Fitzpatrick and Benjamin Watson of the Cleveland Browns as having scored a 48, the highest Wonderlic score of any active NFL player.[10] In 2011, Alabama Crimson Tide quarterback Greg McElroy was believed to have scored a 48, but it was quickly discovered that he only scored a still impressive 43.[11] During the 2009 Combine NFL Network's Rich Eisen mentioned that Boston College graduate Mike Mamula, a 1995 draftee, scored a 49; USA Today has also reported on this claim.[12]

 

On the other hand, some high profile players have scored rather low on the test. Dan Marino and Vince Young both scored 16 on the test, though Vince Young scored a 6 on his first attempt.[13] Marcus Vick, brother of Michael Vick, scored 11. Michael himself scored a 20.

 

A study[14] by McDonald Mirabile has shown that there is no significant correlation between Wonderlic scores and a quarterback's passer rating, and no significant correlation between Wonderlic scores and a quarterback's salary.

 

Similarly, a study[15] by Brian D. Lyons, Brian J. Hoffman, and John W. Michel found that Wonderlic test scores failed to positively and significantly predict future NFL performance for any position. The Lyons et al. (2009) study also found that the relationship between Wonderlic test scores and future NFL performance was negative for a few positions, indicating the higher a player scores on the Wonderlic test, the worse the player will perform in the NFL. Results from this study were recently highlighted in an Atlanta Journal-Constitution article by D. Orlando Ledbetter[16].

 

Writing in Sports Illustrated, John P. Lopez proposes a 26-27-60 rule to predict a quarterback's success in the NFL: at least a 26 on the Wonderlic, at least 27 college starts, and at least 60% pass completion, and lists several examples of successes and failures based on the rule.[17]

 

...bottom line is fitzy is smart as hell

[NoSaint]

 

 

Writing in Sports Illustrated, John P. Lopez proposes a 26-27-60 rule to predict a quarterback's success in the NFL: at least a 26 on the Wonderlic, at least 27 college starts, and at least 60% pass completion, and lists several examples of successes and failures based on the rule.[17]

 

...bottom line is fitzy is smart as hell

 

and with that, i must throw out the cursory -- who passes?

 

i know we have threads with the 27 starts, and 60% -- but im not digging right now.

[billsfan89]

Don't we have a QB on the roster that almost scored a perfect score on this test? Yeah I don't put much stock into this test.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The wonderlic is similar to the combine in that it is just simply supplemental information. Impressions of players should be made from play and tape, with supplemental information serving to verify certain impressions. Having said that, it's nice to see that Newton isn't virtually retarded (Vince Young). While a 21 isn't a great score, it shows that his brain more or less works under the gun.

 

Vince Young scored a 6, and anytime the slightest bit of mental pressure has been applied to him he cracks. The test seems to have at least a little value. Although Manning scored in the 20's I believe, and he is considered one of the smartest QB's in the league (Football smarts anyway).

 

 

 

I don't think Farve is the greatest example. He had one of the strongest arms in FB history, combined with decent mobility, and unmatched durability. He didn't win games with "smarts", just raw ability. Don't forget, this guy also holds the league int record, which probably will never be broken (maybe with 18 game seasons). For all his touchdowns, hes also thrown many passes right to the other team that make you say "WTF?".

 

 

I was only citing him as an excpetion, very good in spite of but low measured IQ QB. and yes he made lots of bad decisions thought won more often than not because of a very strong and very accurate arm. He seemed to always get the ball to where he wanted it in a hurry, it just wasn't always a smart choice.

 

Smarts matter in todays NFL and the wonderlic measures smarts. Is it 100% correct? No test is. Is the probability much much higher that a QB who scored a 30+ on the test will be a much smarter QB than one who scored 10 and therfore make bettr decisions? Absolutely.

[Albany,n.y.]

Is the probability much much higher that a QB who scored a 30+ on the test will be a much smarter QB than one who scored 10 and therfore make bettr decisions? Absolutely.

Not if the guy who scored the 30 is like JP & his agent coached him up to the 30+. The Wonderlic scores are just too suspect to take at face value when agents get involved. JP's 14 was much more indicative than his 30+ score was. Now imagine if JP had been coached the 1st time & had never taken it before the coaching. That's what we're now seeing with a lot of the QBs & why I can never look at a Wonderlic score & attribute any real meaning to one.

[NoSaint]

Not if the guy who scored the 30 is like JP & his agent coached him up to the 30+. The Wonderlic scores are just too suspect to take at face value when agents get involved. JP's 14 was much more indicative than his 30+ score was. Now imagine if JP had been coached the 1st time & had never taken it before the coaching. That's what we're now seeing with a lot of the QBs & why I can never look at a Wonderlic score & attribute any real meaning to one.

 

Do you think any qb going in the first 5 rounds isn't highly prepped?

 

Odds are JP was a mid 20s intelligence that had a bad day, and a good day. Give him the test 20 times I'd guess he's solidly in the mid section of the curve. I went to tulane with jpl - kids not a genius but he's not slow either. Just not a great qb.

Edited March 19, 2011 by NoSaint

[Johnny Hammersticks]

LSU CB Patrick Peterson and UGA WR AJ Green, both scored very low on the wonderlic. "Peterson plays like a low test guy" is one scout's assessment.

Yahoo Article

 

Defensive Back and Wide Receiver, IMO, are not positions that require a "cerebral" type of player. I'm not worried about guys like Peterson and Green scoring below average on the Wonderlic.

 

Darelle Revis scored a 10 on the Wonderlic.

[Pirate Angel]

This pretty much guarantees that Gabbert will not fall past Carolina, Buffalo AND Arizona.

And this kind of means we won't be selecting Cam Newton at 3. I seem to recall Nix liking high Wonderlic scores for early QB's.

The thing that sticks out to me on what buddy and chan both have stated that makes me believe we will not be taking Newton or Fairly is they the both want a guy that has been succesful and a solid contributer for all 4 years, nether has played major college football for all 4 years.

[NoSaint]

The thing that sticks out to me on what buddy and chan both have stated that makes me believe we will not be taking Newton or Fairly is they the both want a guy that has been succesful and a solid contributer for all 4 years, nether has played major college football for all 4 years.

 

Which is easier to talk about in the mid first and on. Just about anybody that puts up a season worth top 5 consideration comes out immediately. Obviously exceptions but I'd lean on those as guidelines not gospel.

[Saint Doug]

These player knew for months that they would have to sit down and take this test. Therefore, it's in their best interest to prepare. A good score may not mean much for a CB, but I can see how it can help a QB, so why not take it seriously? A great score will increase your likelihood of getting drafted earlier, so why not just take a day or two and study your butt off? So, it seems that if you get a poor score, either you're of low intelligence (which is OK) or you just don't give a damn about being a professional and being the best you can be. If I had to pick who would be on my team, it would be the former example any day of the week.

[Albany,n.y.]

Do you think any qb going in the first 5 rounds isn't highly prepped?

Sure they're prepped. As a result, the scores don't mean a lot. I'd rather have a test that measures football intelligence. Right now the Wonderlic is highly skewed to favor people with a high math aptitude. That doesn't always translate to a football field.

[It's in My Blood]

Does anyone know where a copy of the Wonderlic can be found? Im just curious to see what kind of questions these guys are getting asked.

[NoSaint]

Does anyone know where a copy of the Wonderlic can be found? Im just curious to see what kind of questions these guys are getting asked.

here are some samples - ive seen almost identical questions on the actual test. and yes, in real life its multi choice, these are just some sample questions, not an actual wonderlic

 

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html

 

as im sure you will find, getting anywhere in the 20s is pretty simple, and the difference between a 24 and a 29 isnt really all that telling, i just think outliers (say over 40, and under 10) are noteworthy. obviously not in a certain to fail/succeed sense, but worth noting. if a guy cant get 10 right - something is wrong, and a gm needs to figure out what, and how/if it effects game play, and whether it needs to be or can be corrected. a guy that scores a 6 can still play well, but you may have to pay a little extra attention along the way.

Edited March 19, 2011 by NoSaint

[DrDawkinstein]

here are some samples - ive seen almost identical questions on the actual test. and yes, in real life its multi choice, these are just some sample questions, not an actual wonderlic

 

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020228test.html

 

as im sure you will find, getting anywhere in the 20s is pretty simple, and the difference between a 24 and a 29 isnt really all that telling, i just think outliers (say over 40, and under 10) are noteworthy. obviously not in a certain to fail/succeed sense, but worth noting. if a guy cant get 10 right - something is wrong, and a gm needs to figure out what, and how/if it effects game play, and whether it needs to be or can be corrected. a guy that scores a 6 can still play well, but you may have to pay a little extra attention along the way.

 

The fact that players need "special preparation" for that test, beyond the preparation that IS SCHOOL, is kinda troubling...

[NoSaint]

The fact that players need "special preparation" for that test, beyond the preparation that IS SCHOOL, is kinda troubling...

 

honestly beyond someone telling them not to leave blanks, just guess. and not to spend 8 minutes on one question, just guess and if you have time come back to it. eliminate stupid answers quickly to make the guess a 50-50 shot instead of 1/4 chance.

 

and maybe some quick alegebra brush ups it should be a breeze to get ready for.

 

take one sample, see if any single type of question slows you up and spend the 5 mins it would take to learn how.

 

especially for college students. just saying.