Anyone think the NFLPA messed up?

[Calgary_JG]

The problem I can't get around though in the fan argument is that it's not the players that are expendable. You make it sound like you would shell out hundreds of dollars a year to watch some 4th stringers start rather than Brady, Manning, etc. That's simply not true. The owners are the expendable ones...there are plenty of billionaires who have nothing better to do with their money than buy a football team...couple that with the fact that a franchise in the NFL runs successfully as a public stock option and I'd say it's the owners with a bloated sense of their worth in the process.

 

that's where you're wrong...fans will pay to watch the Buffalo Bills. If Brady or Vick or Brees ain't playin they'll watch QB#12 instead. This idea that the players are the product is ridiculous, football is the product and the NFL owns the best product. If you want to go and watch Brees sling it around in the UFL, go right ahead, I'll be happy to watch the Superbowl

[1B4IDie]

that's where you're wrong...fans will pay to watch the Buffalo Bills. If Brady or Vick or Brees ain't playin they'll watch QB#12 instead. This idea that the players are the product is ridiculous, football is the product and the NFL owns the best product. If you want to go and watch Brees sling it around in the UFL, go right ahead, I'll be happy to watch the Superbowl

 

I think you're speaking for just you.

 

I'll watch Brees and Roddy White in the UFL.

 

I could really give a crap what the league is called as long as I know its the top of the top players.

 

If All the NFL player's said screw the NFL, we're going to play in the UFL and all of the drafted players said screw the NFL, and the best college football players were guaranteed to go to the UFL. And the UFL took the risk to give them big contracts and was able to get a contract with NBC, CBS, ABC, or ESPN. Well them I'd watch the UFL.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[Ramius]

I think you're speaking for just you.

 

I'll watch Brees and Roddy White in the UFL.

 

I could really give a crap what the league is called as long as I know its the top of the top players.

 

If All the NFL player's said screw the NFL, we're going to play in the UFL and all of the drafted players said screw the NFL, and the best college football players were guaranteed to go to the UFL. Well them I'd watch the UFL.

 

NFL fans will easily fill the stands with replacements, or if the NFLPA was disbanded and if 1,000 new players filled the rosters. Look at how many fans college ball draws, and the skill level there is significantly lower.

 

Also, were the pats* struggling to fill seats when Brady was out for the season? Nope.

[1B4IDie]

NFL fans will easily fill the stands with replacements, or if the NFLPA was disbanded and if 1,000 new players filled the rosters. Look at how many fans college ball draws, and the skill level there is significantly lower.

 

Also, were the pats* struggling to fill seats when Brady was out for the season? Nope.

All of that is true.

The situation that was presented, is if you have all the current stars and future stars in League A and replacement players in League B. Which league would you watch?

Edited March 14, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[K-9]

NFL fans will easily fill the stands with replacements, or if the NFLPA was disbanded and if 1,000 new players filled the rosters. Look at how many fans college ball draws, and the skill level there is significantly lower.

 

Also, were the pats* struggling to fill seats when Brady was out for the season? Nope.

 

Well, if 1987 is any indication that fans will still flock to stadiums to see replacement players, it isn't likely to happen. Although there were a couple good crowds in Denver and one in Dallas, average attendance was nowhere near pre-strike levels. Perhaps we've changed as fans, I don't know, I can only speak for myself and I would have little to no interest in watching inferior players after the novelty of the first game or two wore off. Watching Willie Totten QB the Bills and try not to get killed by Lawrence Taylor was good for a few laughs but it got old real quick.

 

I agree about college ball but so much more goes into the why fans attend college games even though quality of the football product isn't at the pro level.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Doc]

You might not see a big drop in ticket revenue, or even attendance, because many teams having waiting lists for tickets and their seasons are sold-out years in advance. So people will still go to games because they've already paid for them.

[Bills(70)]

I receive your point & it's valid. I am putting my money on the billionaires. As a previous poster stated..."staying power"

Staying Power is the truth, bottom line.

There wouldn't be an NFL without the owners, whether people like to admit it or not. The owners give the players a venue to play in. Without them, there is no venue, hence, no NFL.

 

I happen to side with the owners, I own a business that deals with unions and honestly, if the union demanded to see my books I'd tell them to go take a flying leap. I built the company as a product, the union wasn't there when I started, why should they be privy to what the company makes? They shouldn't.

 

And whether or not a profit sharing agreement is in place or not, these players come and go, the owners, for the most part, are around through generations of players. No, I cannot see nor would I, the union's stand on this issue. If they want a system like that, then I recommend the NFLPA go and build their own League that they can operate under the guidelines they want.

[Hplarrm]

Please. It's hardly "un-American" that the players aren't making more than $325K minimum and an average of $1.9M a year. They are free to pursue employment in the UFL, AFL, and CFL, but choose to enter the NFL and thus should have to abide by its rules. There is no way that the courts will a) break up the NFL or b) abolish the draft, because of the effects it would have on every other professional sports league.

A finding against the NFL in this case would in no way:

 

1) break up the NFL- It would simply require the NFL to compete in the free market for the services of individual players the same as other Americans compete in the free market. It was this fear of free market competition which drove the owners running like banshees to sign the CBA in the first place. The team owners have been confronted with a choice by the decertification of the NFLPA of making more money or retaining their rights as sole owners of the NFL.

 

As is often the case in our country they went with the money the first two times, but now are trying to re-leverage the deal to both get the money and recover a clear majority share of the revenues.

 

2) abolish the draft- under US law we generally favor the rights of the individual over the rights of state and certainly by law over a mere corporation. The courts have consistently ruled that the NFL can have a draft (even though this abridges the ability of an individual to sell his services to the highest bidder if he chooses) IF and only IF the individuals in the market in question have legitimately selected an agent to release their individual rights in exchange for an equitable deal.

 

The NFL can have its draft (and do the un-American thing of restricting the individual to sign with only one party) if and only if the individual rights are protected by a bargaining agent, namely the NFLPA in this case.

 

The pathetic thing to me in this case is that a corporation, the NFL is demanding by fiat to force the individual to only sale their services to one buyer (the team that selected them in a draft). This is un-American from my point of view.

 

How on earth can you justify the NFL actually barring adults from signing free market contracts with teams as the NFL proposes to do in the draft without any bargaining agent for the players now that decert has happened.

 

I can easily see the court standing up for the individual against the powers of a corporation. For the courts not to protect the individual would simply be un-American IMHO.

[Bob in STL]

NFL fans will easily fill the stands with replacements, or if the NFLPA was disbanded and if 1,000 new players filled the rosters. Look at how many fans college ball draws, and the skill level there is significantly lower.

 

Also, were the pats* struggling to fill seats when Brady was out for the season? Nope.

 

Nope. Replacement players will get scarce crowds, just like back in 1987. Even worse, TV ratings will sink after the first few weeks, the curiousity will be over. Even though it would be interesting to see what the next 1,000 players looked like.

 

Pro Football fans are not the same as College football. College football fans are loyal for different reasons. Fans of both will attest to that.

 

The Brady example is another bad example. The pats* were still on contender without Brady and they play in a large market that has had so much success they will sell out for years to come no matter what.

[Mickey]

Obviously I don't have all the details but from what I read about the NFL's proposal it seemed ok. It seemed to me the league met many of the unions demands and moved to the middle on the money. I understand the union is afraid they are being duped by not having access to all the information they need but the proposal from the NFL included more shared financial information. I suspect there would have been an out clause in the deal they union could have exercised just like the owners did if the deal wasn't working for them a couple years down the road. I think the union believes the courts are going to be more fair than the owners. However our national court system is filled with Bush I and II era appointments and the Supreme Court is decidedly pro-business. I'm not so sure the courts will consistently be on the players side. Maybe this Judge Doty will be but any decision he makes will be appealed higher to courts that are likely much more conservative and pro-owner/anti-union.

One of the basics of negotiations is that whatever they are offering in the 6th hour is less than they will offer in the 7th. The last best offer won't come out until the 11th hour and we aren't there yet, not even close. I think they would be crazy to sign a deal based on numbers that are unverified. Would you buy stock in a company that refused to show you their balance sheets?

 

Lawsuit ='s Discovery. In the context of a suit, the law provides the means by which both sides can force the other so produce documents. At this point, the Union would be in a better negotiating position well before the suit ever gets to trial. They will use the suit to crack open the books and then the real negotiating will begin. Then it becomes a matter of playing chicken with both sides trying to get the better of the deal, pretty much a marathon session of haggling. There is no hard, magic number out there where either side will draw a line in the sand. There is no point where X amount of $ is acceptable but X minus $1 is not. Ever been on a date with a girl and tried to go as far as with her as she will let you but you had no idea where that would be, a kiss at the door or breakfast in bed? You woulldn't cancel the date because she only let you go to half way between second and third. Okay, its a tortured metaphor but you get the idea.

[Doc]

A finding against the NFL in this case would in no way:

 

1) break up the NFL- It would simply require the NFL to compete in the free market for the services of individual players the same as other Americans compete in the free market. It was this fear of free market competition which drove the owners running like banshees to sign the CBA in the first place. The team owners have been confronted with a choice by the decertification of the NFLPA of making more money or retaining their rights as sole owners of the NFL.

 

As is often the case in our country they went with the money the first two times, but now are trying to re-leverage the deal to both get the money and recover a clear majority share of the revenues.

 

2) abolish the draft- under US law we generally favor the rights of the individual over the rights of state and certainly by law over a mere corporation. The courts have consistently ruled that the NFL can have a draft (even though this abridges the ability of an individual to sell his services to the highest bidder if he chooses) IF and only IF the individuals in the market in question have legitimately selected an agent to release their individual rights in exchange for an equitable deal.

 

The NFL can have its draft (and do the un-American thing of restricting the individual to sign with only one party) if and only if the individual rights are protected by a bargaining agent, namely the NFLPA in this case.

 

The pathetic thing to me in this case is that a corporation, the NFL is demanding by fiat to force the individual to only sale their services to one buyer (the team that selected them in a draft). This is un-American from my point of view.

 

How on earth can you justify the NFL actually barring adults from signing free market contracts with teams as the NFL proposes to do in the draft without any bargaining agent for the players now that decert has happened.

 

I can easily see the court standing up for the individual against the powers of a corporation. For the courts not to protect the individual would simply be un-American IMHO.

I doubt any contracts will be done until there is a new CBA and agents are back in the fold.

[Ramius]

All of that is true.

The situation that was presented, is if you have all the current stars and future stars in League A and replacement players in League B. Which league would you watch?

 

There's no way another league would be able to support more than 1 or 2 superstars, due to salary structure and the simple fact it would take billions of dollars to get another realisticly competitive league started.

 

Do you think that Peyton Manning (or any other high profile player) is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for 200k per year? hell no. Do you think Peyton Manning is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for $5 million per season, but play behind 5 OL making 50k per year? Hell no. Do you think that the Las Vegas locomotives are all of a sudden going to be able to afford a ton of high salaries? Hell no.

 

For the big time NFL players, its the NFL or nothing. And unfortunately, because of De Smith's arrogance, ignorance, and jackassery, these players (and others) will eventually come crawling back to the NFL and accept a worse deal that what they could have gotten had they tossed that asshat to the side of the road and negotiated in good faith, without an ultimate intention to decertify.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Ramius

[Orton's Arm]

As for the Adolf, it was meant as sarcasm ... or is that an issue on this site as well? Equating the Tea Party and its backing of politicians like Walker in Wisconsin, Rand Paul in Kentucky, Michelle Bachman in Minnesota, etc. With the Third Reich ... well, Hitler did ban unions and collective bargaining in1933 as a way to stifle dissent. Oops, but this is a sports site ... I'd better stop with the politics.

Hitler's elimination of labor unions was part of his larger social and economic strategy. Before coming to power, Hitler noticed a great deal of strife between labor unions (which were generally controlled by union leaders with Marxist connections) and capitalists (who were often engaged in questionable labor practices and worker exploitation). Hitler decided that, instead of leaving it up to those two groups to negotiate with each other, he would eliminate labor unions, put the Marxist labor union leaders in concentration camps, and dictate the labor arrangements that seemed best to him. Hitler's orders resulted in an increase in wages, a 40 hour work week, significantly increased worker vacation time, and improved workplace safety conditions. German corporations were able to afford all this because of the economic expansion that occurred under the early years of Hitler's rule. Additionally, corporations no longer had to worry about their workforce going on strike.

 

That economic expansion continued throughout the '30s. Hitler's goal was to give the German working class a reasonable living standard--not necessarily to maximize German consumer spending. Early on, the fruits of the German expansion went mostly to achieving Hitler's goal of reasonable living standards for workers. Once that had been accomplished, the considerable additional economic gains that were made went mostly into corporate profits. However, Hitler put tight restrictions on the amount of those corporate profits that could be paid out in dividends. That meant that business owners were not allowed to do anything with the bulk of the profits they made--except reinvest them in new and better factories and equipment, research and development, etc. This was exactly the outcome Hitler had intended. Its result was a significant increase in German industrial capacity--the effects of which were not fully felt until '44. Germany produced 8,000 military aircraft in '39, 15,000 in '41, and 41,000 in '44. But by '44, its military fortunes had deteriorated enough, and its enemies were strong enough, that this increase was too little to matter.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

For some reason I can not relate to union workers making millions of dollars each year and then complaining about it.

[Realist]

There's no way another league would be able to support more than 1 or 2 superstars, due to salary structure and the simple fact it would take billions of dollars to get another realisticly competitive league started.

 

Do you think that Peyton Manning (or any other high profile player) is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for 200k per year? hell no. Do you think Peyton Manning is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for $5 million per season, but play behind 5 OL making 50k per year? Hell no. Do you think that the Las Vegas locomotives are all of a sudden going to be able to afford a ton of high salaries? Hell no.

 

For the big time NFL players, its the NFL or nothing. And unfortunately, because of De Smith's arrogance, ignorance, and jackassery, these players (and others) will eventually come crawling back to the NFL and accept a worse deal that what they could have gotten had they tossed that asshat to the side of the road and negotiated in good faith, without an ultimate intention to decertify.

Couldn't agree more.

 

If a new league formed or they go to the UFL, these players would be playing for only a fraction of what they get now and will get when all this is over.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

I think you're speaking for just you.

 

I'll watch Brees and Roddy White in the UFL.

 

I could really give a crap what the league is called as long as I know its the top of the top players.

 

If All the NFL player's said screw the NFL, we're going to play in the UFL and all of the drafted players said screw the NFL, and the best college football players were guaranteed to go to the UFL. And the UFL took the risk to give them big contracts and was able to get a contract with NBC, CBS, ABC, or ESPN. Well them I'd watch the UFL.

 

 

top players. big contracts. you just described the nfl.

 

maybe in the next life they'll all settle in and sing kumbaya, but i doubt it would be any different.

[Sisyphean Bills]

There's no way another league would be able to support more than 1 or 2 superstars, due to salary structure and the simple fact it would take billions of dollars to get another realisticly competitive league started.

 

Do you think that Peyton Manning (or any other high profile player) is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for 200k per year? hell no. Do you think Peyton Manning is going to play for the Las Vegas Locomotives for $5 million per season, but play behind 5 OL making 50k per year? Hell no. Do you think that the Las Vegas locomotives are all of a sudden going to be able to afford a ton of high salaries? Hell no.

 

For the big time NFL players, its the NFL or nothing. And unfortunately, because of De Smith's arrogance, ignorance, and jackassery, these players (and others) will eventually come crawling back to the NFL and accept a worse deal that what they could have gotten had they tossed that asshat to the side of the road and negotiated in good faith, without an ultimate intention to decertify.

Not to mention that these phantom new owners would have to be willing to flush billions of dollars into starting up a new league. Where would they play? NFL owners aren't going to offer their facilities and don't be so sure college programs want to pick up the tab either. What networks are they going to sign up to televise their games? What pricing can these vapor networks sell advertising for? How many years would it take to cut into the NFL's market position? It's been tried before in various ways and almost all attempts have failed -- only the AFL has "succeeded" and that was ancient history and bending the premise a bit because the AFL was absorbed into the NFL.

[K-9]

Not to mention that these phantom new owners would have to be willing to flush billions of dollars into starting up a new league. Where would they play? NFL owners aren't going to offer their facilities and don't be so sure college programs want to pick up the tab either. What networks are they going to sign up to televise their games? What pricing can these vapor networks sell advertising for? How many years would it take to cut into the NFL's market position? It's been tried before in various ways and almost all attempts have failed -- only the AFL has "succeeded" and that was ancient history and bending the premise a bit because the AFL was absorbed into the NFL.

 

Don't underestimate the power of A&E or Discovery Channel to televise their games. We're talkin' THOUSANDS in TV revenue for the fledgling league!

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Nanker]

Don't underestimate the power of A&E or Discovery Channel to televise their games. We're talkin' THOUSANDS in TV revenue for the fledgling league!

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Where can I apply to do the play-by-play?

[Sisyphean Bills]

Don't underestimate the power of A&E or Discovery Channel to televise their games. We're talkin' THOUSANDS in TV revenue for the fledgling league!

 

GO BILLS!!!

Don't forget the NFL Network.