How Long Before The Nuclear Power Plant Situation..

[ExiledInIllinois]

Or you can stop getting hysterical and put things in proper context.

 

There's a massive humanitarian crisis going on right now and 10,000 dead or missing, millions displaced, yet most of the volume is focused on radiation levels equivalent of an xray.

 

I am not hysterical. They will have to find a way to address both issues... Right now they are abandoning ship. That is not good. What is next? What if this turns into a Chernobyl-by-the-Sea situation? That 10,000 and millions displaced will look like small potatoes for the shear fact that those displaced can't return anywhere near the plant... And you know the island of Honshu is not a big island for the amount of population on it. NOW factor in the years of mistrust the people have for this plant and TEPCO... You sure about those levels of radiation?

Edited March 16, 2011 by ExiledInIllinois

[GG]

I am not hysterical. They will have to find a way to address both issues... Right now they are abandoning ship. That is not good. What is next? What if this turns into a Chernobyl-by-the-Sea situation? That 10,000 and millions displaced will look like small potatoes for the shear fact that those displaced can't return anywhere near the plant... And you know the island of Honshu is not a big island for the amount of population on it. NOW factor in the years of mistrust the people have for this plant and TEPCO... You sure about those levels of radiation?

 

This is precisely what I mean by hysterical. Not a single commentator or expert have equated Fukushima to Chernobyl, because the situations are so vastly different. Yet because both involve the word "nuclear plant" there's the appropriate hysteria.

 

This situation is more akin to Three Mile Island, and in that case as well the fears were greatly exaggerated.

 

Here's some quantification of the radiation levels so far -

 

Also Wednesday afternoon, Japanese national broadcaster NHK reported radiation of 300 microsieverts detected about 20 kilometers, or about 13 miles, from the Fukushima Daiichi plant. That distance is near the edge of the evacuation zone that Japanese officials widened earlier this week. That exposure level is somewhere between an X-ray and the background radiation people receive during a year.

 

So, this is not to say that the situation isn't serious, but the reporting & the hysteria surrounding it will cause more harm than good. If anything, these stories push the other relief efforts and more relevant information of how people can help (donations, blood, time) from the front page.

[Dante]

Japan abandons stricken nuke plant over radiation

 

Is that your biggest worry? Exploitation? They just abandoned ship and left those reactors on their own. Anyone not fudging their drawers right now is not paying attention.

 

PTR

If you wanted to be fair you would put my quote in context. It was not quite as bad when I posted.

[Bishop Hedd]

Japan abandons stricken nuke plant over radiation

 

Is that your biggest worry? Exploitation? They just abandoned ship and left those reactors on their own. Anyone not fudging their drawers right now is not paying attention.

 

PTR

yes. that seems to be forgotten in this thread amidst all the talk of DC Tom's ego and Canucks.

[TheMadCap]

Actually, either Isaac Newton or Dick Feynman.

 

I'm third.

 

 

Both are on my list.

 

I realize I am a bit light on recent people simply because not enough time has elapsed to properly assess their contributions. I am also biased towards scientists/mathematicians and astronomers. Perhaps I should have called it "12 most important influential scientists in history"

 

1. Nikola Tesla

2. Sir Issac Newton

3. Galileo Galilei

4. Johannas Kepler

5. Albert Einstein

6. Leonardo de Vinci

7. Archimedes

8. Oppenhiemer/Feynmen/Fermi

9. Thomas Edison

10. Aristarchus of Samos

11. Heron of Alexandria

12. Louis Pasteur

 

Now back to the topic at hand: A most serious situation to be sure, but I must reinforce that labeling this a Chernobyl-like event is vastly overstating the facts at this point.

 

In a widespread and sustained loss of electicial power, a nuclear plant would be the last place to get caught near, simply for the reasons you are seeing now in Japan: no way to dissapate the heat generated by the reactor and spent fuel in storage pools...

Edited March 16, 2011 by TheMadCap

[DC Tom]

Both are on my list.

 

I realize I am a bit light on recent people simply because not enough time has elapsed to properly assess their contributions. I am also biased towards scientists/mathematicians and astronomers. Perhaps I should have called it "12 most important influential scientists in history"

 

1. Nikola Tesla

2. Sir Issac Newton

3. Galileo Galilei

4. Johannas Kepler

5. Albert Einstein

6. Leonardo de Vinci

7. Archimedes

8. Oppenhiemer/Feynmen/Fermi

9. Thomas Edison

10. Aristarchus of Samos

11. Heron of Alexandria

12. Louis Pasteur

 

You forgot me. Guess I'm 13th.

 

Now back to the topic at hand: A most serious situation to be sure, but I must reinforce that labeling this a Chernobyl-like event is vastly overstating the facts at this point.

 

In a widespread and sustained loss of electicial power, a nuclear plant would be the last place to get caught near, simply for the reasons you are seeing now in Japan: no way to dissapate the heat generated by the reactor and spent fuel in storage pools...

 

Of course, if the damn thing keeps bursting into flame, it'll get "Chernobyl-bad" pretty quickly. Really...they're not keeping the cooling pools cooled? That's not that tough...they're giant swimming pools, in essence.

 

Of course, it seems they co-located a whole bunch of critical systems and their backups...which makes a certain amount of sense from an efficiency standpoint, but really kind of !@#$s your redundancy in any situation other than a single point failure. And you'd think, in an earthquake- and tsunami-prone country, in a coastal nuclear plant, they'd take that into account.

[whateverdude]

I don't think it's possible for this to become like Chernobyl. Chernobyl reactors used graphite to cool the rods and mixtures of graphite dust and air are explosive when ignited. Also the Russian reactors did not have any containment structures over it. The Japanese reactors have 2

[DC Tom]

I don't think it's possible for this to become like Chernobyl. Chernobyl reactors used graphite to cool the rods and mixtures of graphite dust and air are explosive when ignited. Also the Russian reactors did not have any containment structures over it. The Japanese reactors have 2

 

Graphite's not a coolant, it's a neutron absorber. It stops the nuclear reaction, but doesn't draw heat from the core.

 

 

And reports are that at least one of the reactors has all containment breached. And they're having trouble keeping the spent fuel rods (outside the reactors) cool, which is apparently what caused yesterday's fire and spewed radioactive **** into the air.

[....lybob]

You forgot me. Guess I'm 13th.

 

 

 

Of course, if the damn thing keeps bursting into flame, it'll get "Chernobyl-bad" pretty quickly. Really...they're not keeping the cooling pools cooled? That's not that tough...they're giant swimming pools, in essence.

 

Of course, it seems they co-located a whole bunch of critical systems and their backups...which makes a certain amount of sense from an efficiency standpoint, but really kind of !@#$s your redundancy in any situation other than a single point failure. And you'd think, in an earthquake- and tsunami-prone country, in a coastal nuclear plant, they'd take that into account.

 

System efficiency is almost always in conflict with system ruggedness.

Edited March 16, 2011 by ....lybob

[Magox]

Talk about fanning the flames, unless the EU energy chief knows something that most other "experts" don't, he needs to be taken to the woodshed and flogged.

[DC Tom]

System efficiency is almost always in conflict with system ruggedness.

 

No ****, Sherlock.

 

Talk about fanning the flames, unless the EU energy chief knows something that most other "experts" don't, he needs to be taken to the woodshed and flogged.

 

For those who didn't see, he said "The site is effectively out of control," which is a true and accurate statement. And "In the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island," which is completely asinine and useless prognostication.

[whateverdude]

Graphite's not a coolant, it's a neutron absorber. It stops the nuclear reaction, but doesn't draw heat from the core.

 

 

And reports are that at least one of the reactors has all containment breached. And they're having trouble keeping the spent fuel rods (outside the reactors) cool, which is apparently what caused yesterday's fire and spewed radioactive **** into the air.

Ok then, liquid mixture of graphite as coolant. The graphite dust in air is combustible and blew the Uranium out over the land. The Japanese situation is different. From what I understand and I could be wrong, the explosions were caused by a build up of combustible gases under the containment structures, the uranium is still in place. Once the containment structures is breached the radioactive gases are vented, no more explosions. Far better to have radio active gases released then to have an explosion where Uranium is blown out over the land like Chernobyl.

[DC Tom]

Ok then, liquid mixture of graphite as coolant. The graphite dust in air is combustible and blew the Uranium out over the land. The Japanese situation is different. From what I understand and I could be wrong, the explosions were caused by a build up of combustible gases under the containment structures, the uranium is still in place. Once the containment structures is breached the radioactive gases are vented, no more explosions. Far better to have radio active gases released then to have an explosion where Uranium is blown out over the land like Chernobyl.

 

Graphite's used in reactors, and it was what caught at Chernobyl. But it's not a coolant...it's a nuclear moderator (and I mis-typed above; it's a neutron reflector, not absorber). And it was a steam explosion that blew apart the building, not "graphite dust". And the graphite fire propelled a buttload of radioactive particles into the atmosphere, not just uranium (I believe cesium is by far the biggest contaminant). Most of the uranium core is still intact, with in the reactor tomb at Chernobyl.

 

At Fukushima, the explosions were hydrogen explosions, and there have been several fires with radiation spikes indicating that the fuel could be exposed, meaning containment has been breached. Which would mean that the waste from the fission reaction (largely what was released at Chernobyl) is exposed and can be lofted into the atmosphere either within steam, or as a result of continuing fires - say, from the graphite within the exposed core of the reactors.

 

About the only difference is that the reactors in Fukushima are completely shut down - all the problems they're having are concerning residual heat - so the reactor's not going to undergo a nuclear explosion like Chernobyl did.

[whateverdude]

Graphite's used in reactors, and it was what caught at Chernobyl. But it's not a coolant...it's a nuclear moderator (and I mis-typed above; it's a neutron reflector, not absorber). And it was a steam explosion that blew apart the building, not "graphite dust". And the graphite fire propelled a buttload of radioactive particles into the atmosphere, not just uranium (I believe cesium is by far the biggest contaminant). Most of the uranium core is still intact, with in the reactor tomb at Chernobyl.

 

At Fukushima, the explosions were hydrogen explosions, and there have been several fires with radiation spikes indicating that the fuel could be exposed, meaning containment has been breached. Which would mean that the waste from the fission reaction (largely what was released at Chernobyl) is exposed and can be lofted into the atmosphere either within steam, or as a result of continuing fires - say, from the graphite within the exposed core of the reactors.

 

About the only difference is that the reactors in Fukushima are completely shut down - all the problems they're having are concerning residual heat - so the reactor's not going to undergo a nuclear explosion like Chernobyl did.

How long will it take to cool?

[DC Tom]

How long will it take to cool?

 

Months. The source of heat is decay from a bunch of different isotopes, most of which have half-lives on the order of minutes or hours. But iodine-131 has a half life of some eight days, which basically means it'll be contributing significant amounts of heat for about three months.

[Jim in Anchorage]

You forgot me. Guess I'm 13th.

 

 

 

 

You will be recognized posthumously. Hint hint

[ExiledInIllinois]

This is precisely what I mean by hysterical. Not a single commentator or expert have equated Fukushima to Chernobyl, because the situations are so vastly different. Yet because both involve the word "nuclear plant" there's the appropriate hysteria.

 

This situation is more akin to Three Mile Island, and in that case as well the fears were greatly exaggerated.

 

Here's some quantification of the radiation levels so far -

 

 

 

So, this is not to say that the situation isn't serious, but the reporting & the hysteria surrounding it will cause more harm than good. If anything, these stories push the other relief efforts and more relevant information of how people can help (donations, blood, time) from the front page.

 

 

Thanks for the breakdown GG... I can respect that... When one does here Nuke plant... Abandoned... You kinda fear the worse. I hope what you are saying is true.... Just hard to trust here, radiation is invisible, so I guess one fears the worse.

[ExiledInIllinois]

And you'd think, in an earthquake- and tsunami-prone country, in a coastal nuclear plant, they'd take that into account.

 

And incur the cost? Why do you think certain nations, people, or whatever get ahead? Sure it is a risk.

 

System efficiency is almost always in conflict with system ruggedness.

 

[Dante]

Really good article explaining a lot of this.

 

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fear-the-media-meltdown-not-the-nuclear-one/

Edited March 16, 2011 by Dante

[meazza]

One thing to mention (not sure if it already was) but I have a lot of respect for those workers risking their lives to get the situation under control.

 

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110316/japan-nuclear-workers-110316/