Is it racist to say

[ajzepp]

All I believe is the idea in your original post is a stereotype and not the reason for the disparity in quarterbacks. If you were throwing that suggestion in to spur debate, but don't personally believe it, then I apologize. But again, your thread is titled "is it racist to say..." and I still believe the implications behind the suggestion are. Just my opinion. I am not the only one to think so.

 

As far as the bolded above, now you are calling me paternalistic, which is a bit insulting. I don't feel the need to come to anyone's rescue. You invited opinions, and received them. I hope they help with your study.

 

It's not a stereotype unless an assumption is made about the other members of a particular group, that a given trait will also extend to them in addition to the member(s) in which it's observed. Just making an observation about something and commenting on it is not necessarily racist.

[Dibs]

.....Could it be that white athletes gravitate towards the QB position based on they might enjoy the studying part of the position more than the black athlete? And the white athlete recognizes that as an edge or a way to compete with their more athletic black counterparts. Is that a racist thing to say? I don't think so.

.....

I would suggest looking at the socio economic backgrounds of people and how that relates to NFL positions, in particular the QB position.

It may well be the case that people from a poorer(or impoverished) background have not learnt the studying skills required to give advantage at the QB position.

It might also be found that a much higher percent of black people fall into the lower socio economic backgrounds than white people.

 

It may appear that white athletes gravitate towards the positions based upon the extra study requirements......but this does not necessarily mean that it is a product of racial tendencies. I personally would think it far more likely to be based upon social & economic tendencies.

[purple haze]

I would suggest looking at the socio economic backgrounds of people and how that relates to NFL positions, in particular the QB position.

It may well be the case that people from a poorer(or impoverished) background have not learnt the studying skills required to give advantage at the QB position.

It might also be found that a much higher percent of black people fall into the lower socio economic backgrounds than white people.

 

It may appear that white athletes gravitate towards the positions based upon the extra study requirements......but this does not necessarily mean that it is a product of racial tendencies. I personally would think it far more likely to be based upon social & economic tendencies.

 

Many times black players are funneled to positions other than QB. I have seen this first hand all the way up through High School. There are black players who want to play QB and eventually get moved to a different position. The only time I did not see this happen is when I played on teams that had no white players. Marlon Briscoe was a QB in Denver back in the AFL days. He did fairly well and was STILL had to move to WR. It has nothing to do with study habits.

 

If white QB's are so much more willing to study why are the Ryan Leaf's, Rick Mirer's, Cabe McCown, Buster Mathison's and hundreds of other white QB's who weren't so hot not become any good? How come nobody assumes they did not stuy? Or did not want to prepare? Sometimes a guy just can't play at a high level and it has nothing to do with preparation or work ethic. Slowly things are changing as athleticism is seen as a necessity at the QB position. The classic pocket passers are becoming relics. But because black QB's have athleticism does not mean they don't have the intelligence to play the position. Or the desire to prepare to play the position. Warren Moon is in the HOF, set all types of passing records, led his team to the playoffs year in and year out and did it while HAVING to got to Canada because no NFL team would give him a chance. Preconceived notions about who should be in charge is why there haven't been many black QB's through the years compared to white QB's. Racism. Simple and plain. Don't try to pass the buck and make it out like it's the black QB's inability or desire to study. For every black QB we see there are several others who did not get an opportunity or a fair opportunity.

 

Watch this if you'd like:

 

What Marlin Briscoe describes was this way up through the 90's. A good number of black QB's do fairly well, particularly, in comparison to the larger number of white counterparts.

 

This original argument is a simple minded one from the start and devoid of any relevant football history. It is full of stereotypes and inaccuracies. But I leave you to believe whatever you choose to believe.

Edited March 11, 2011 by purple haze

[Dibs]

.....Could it be that white athletes gravitate towards the QB position based on they might enjoy the studying part of the position more than the black athlete? And the white athlete recognizes that as an edge or a way to compete with their more athletic black counterparts. Is that a racist thing to say? I don't think so.

.....

Furthermore....

 

Ignoring potential racist elements hindering black QB development early in school....

 

The fact that black athletes(in general) have a physical advantage over white athletes would likely hinder their QB development due to being selected and groomed for the more athletic positions from an early age.

 

When faced with 2 potentially excellent QB prospects(one white & one black)......if one of them also looks to be an excellent WR/CB etc prospect, it is not unlikely that the first will become the QB(thus learning necessary QB development skills) while the other will become a WR/CB etc(thus missing out on necessary QB development skills).

 

The sheer athleticism of many black youngsters may well keep them out of the QB source pool(so to speak).

 

Furthering to this concept, only 12% of the US population is black. This would mean that in a great many schools across the US there would be a much larger number of white students compared to black students. Considering the natural athleticism of the black athlete, it is no stretch to assume that in a vast majorities of schools that predominately white youngsters are being groomed for the QB position......and for logic team effectiveness reasons, not racist reasons.

 

 

btw....in 2008.....average White(non-Hispanic) household income was $55,530.....average Black household income was $34,218

 

 

edit: was writing as Purple Haze replied.

Purple mentions the progression of athleticism needed at QB.....which I think will begin to even the gap more.

I don't think however it is racist or unfair to position a player at a position based upon their skills. Racism is surely out there but putting the best player in at WR for the betterment of the team is fair IMO.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Dibs

[Nasty]

It doesn't matter if he is black white or purple, the fact of the matter is Newton is just not a Buffalo type guy. Do you think he will buy a house and live there in the winter (no), do you think he will do things in the community outside of the football season (no), he just isn't a Buffalo type of guy. I would take Gabbert over Newton, Mallet, and Locker; I would take Mallet over Locker, and Newton; I would take Locker over Newton. But the bottom line is if we don't take Defense in the first and second round the draft is considered a bust to me. We can get a quality QB in the 3rd or 4th round that is going to be a very servicable back-up for a long time for the franchise QB we should draft next year. No draft in the near future will be this enriched in defensive talent, and we need to take advantage of it. A QB will be there next year, who knows on paper anyway we are probably the worst team in the NFL right now so number 1 looks pretty dang good for 2012 and we might get LUCKy.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Triple Threat's most recent post was good enough that you owe him a better response than this.

 

I did aplogize in my response Edwards'. And yes, the OPs response did clarify a lot of what he said in his earlier post.

 

I acknowledged all this. He also did call me paternalistic, which is more insulting than being called a coward. I don't know what else is owed.

[Jim in Anchorage]

 

 

 

I don't believe it's because of the actual white and black racist. I don't think people even listen to them anymore. I think it's the people in the middle. I think there's a large group of white and black people that actually want to talk about sensitive issues, but fear it. I think it's people like you that promote the fear by using words like bigot. You quoted me a couple of times, but never quoted when I said "I honestly am not posting this to incite hateful debate, but honest debate."

 

 

Sir,you hit the nail on the head. Without question the best post on race I have ever seen here.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

Sir,you hit the nail on the head. Without question the best post on race I have ever seen here.

Yeah, and i was called a coward in response.

 

I have already apologized for using that word. The original post was framed to incite a race debate. In 7 pages of posts it has been debated. No one is trying to chill discussion of the topic.

 

Somehow my (and others) disagreement with the OP's suggestion that white players enjoy the studying aspects of the QB position more than black players has turned into me shaming this discussion to death. I did no such thing. I just disagree with a blanket statement like that on principle and agree that the real reasons why there is a racial disparity among QBs in the NFL begin a lot earlier on, as other posters have said. I witnessed it firsthand in high school, and i have little doubt the same thing happens all over the country

[Buffalo Barbarian]

You guys still talking about this?

[Rob's House]

Yeah, and i was called a coward in response.

 

I have already apologized for using that word. The original post was framed to incite a race debate. In 7 pages of posts it has been debated. No one is trying to chill discussion of the topic.

 

Somehow my (and others) disagreement with the OP's suggestion that white players enjoy the studying aspects of the QB position more than black players has turned into me shaming this discussion to death. I did no such thing. I just disagree with a blanket statement like that on principle and agree that the real reasons why there is a racial disparity among QBs in the NFL begin a lot earlier on, as other posters have said. I witnessed it firsthand in high school, and i have little doubt the same thing happens all over the country

If he said Orientals...er.. I mean Asians, were more inclined to studying would that be racist, or would he just be pointing out a difference in cultural norms between different groups of people within the same geopolitical boundary?

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

that white players are better Quarterbacks in the NFL?

 

According to Wiki Answers there are 3,867 white athletes vs 11,978 black athletes in the NFL. It's obvious that it's a difficult thing for a white player to compete with black players in the NFL. And it's not just at skill positions. It appears that they only excel at QB play, Kicking, and Punting. No one knows why that is and you could debate that topic all day long. Could it be that white athletes gravitate towards the QB position based on they might enjoy the studying part of the position more than the black athlete? And the white athlete recognizes that as an edge or a way to compete with their more athletic black counterparts. Is that a racist thing to say? I don't think so.

 

Why can't we just talk about the "elephant in the room"? If anyone saw Cam Newton in his under armour at the combine, and you don't think he's the most physically gifted QB in the draft you're crazy. But the questions about him are centered around does he have the mind of an NFL QB. Can he lead a group of Men. Is he as fierce in the film room as he is in the weight room. Does he ENJOY that part of the position?

 

I honestly am not posting this to incite hateful debate, but honest debate.

I have worked as a school teacher in NY and NC for the last 15 years and have been at 6 different schools. I have worked for both city and suburban schools. In my 15 years I have never been at a school where the scores between black and white students were even close. Every year the principals get in front of the teachers at our staff meetings and preach to us on how we need to improve the scores of our black children. I understand that there are some individual black students who do well but on the whole the statistics are staggering. The QB position is the most cerebral position on the field. Is this why we have such a disparity in the amount of white QB's compared to black QB's? In every school I have been at the blacks were the clear star athletes in basketball, track, and Football (except for QB). The whites dominated in baseball, volleyball, soccer, hockey and in the classroom. I have never seen a black valedictorian. These are the facts and I'm pretty sure this is Nation wide.

[Pondslider]

Hahaha. Yes because anecdotal evidence with nothing at all to back it up are obviously "facts" and indicative of the entire country! "I have never seen a black valedictorian." I guess that means there has never been one!

[bbb]

Hahaha. Yes because anecdotal evidence with nothing at all to back it up are obviously "facts" and indicative of the entire country! "I have never seen a black valedictorian." I guess that means there has never been one!

 

That's not what he said. You want facts? SAT scores of college bound whites are about 200 points higher than college bound blacks:

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171

[Pondslider]

Yes, because skin color is the only difference between those students. They all went to the exact same schools, got the exact same education had the exact same home life. No other factors played a part.

[bbb]

Yes, because skin color is the only difference between those students. They all went to the exact same schools, got the exact same education had the exact same home life. No other factors played a part.

 

From The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education:

 

But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board's 2005 data on the SAT:

 

• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.

 

• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.

 

• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.

 

You said you wanted facts, not anecdotal evidence, so there are some facts.

[ajzepp]

That's not what he said. You want facts? SAT scores of college bound whites are about 200 points higher than college bound blacks:

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=171

 

 

In my opinion...and this is ONLY my opinion...I think that even though this is the great melting pot, there is still a distinct African American culture just like there is a distinct hispanic/Mexican culture, greek culture, etc. My OPINION is that the value of education is simply not prioritized as it should be among certain cultures in the US and there is a lack of confidence that pursuing an education is the most effective way to improve one's lot in life. Education is simply not valued as it should be, and thus other ways of "success" are prioritized higher.

 

Particularly with our young folks who grow up in poorer socioeconomic areas of the country, education has GOT to be presented in a way in which it can be embraced and valued, and I think many of our leaders today simply fail to provide them the opportunity to do exactly that. I don't believe for a second that it has to do with skin color. A few years ago I read that the highest IQ ever recorded (at that time) was that of an African American female. Even though I tend to depart from Obama in certain areas in terms of his politics, I think this was the perfect time to have the first African American president. We need more visible AA leaders and achievers, and we have got to educate our young people of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds or this country is doomed. And that leads me to my last point: The family structure.

 

The traditional family unit is on life support. Kids today simply don't have that strong parental influence as many of us did in the past. I had the benefit of tight family structure as far as the eye could see when I was growing up, and I give that a LOT of the credit as to why I'm (arguably) a well-adjusted, successful person who has achieved educationally and professionally. I had parents who were married all my life and who were involved with me every step of the way. I had grandparents who were married for decades and who had a huge impact on my upbringing, and I even had extended family who further modeled the tight-knit traditional family unit. No divorces anywhere to be seen, education was valued across the board, many of the men had proudly fought in the World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam, and there was healthy communication and support among generations. I'm the richest man in the world because of that...I truly feel that way. And it makes me sad to think that that sort of environment is becoming more and more rare these days.

 

Anyway, the point is that I feel that the cultural influences on our youth is very, very powerful, and until we change our focus and learn to value healthier things, we're screwed.

[bbb]

In my opinion...and this is ONLY my opinion...I think that even though this is the great melting pot, there is still a distinct African American culture just like there is a distinct hispanic/Mexican culture, greek culture, etc. My OPINION is that the value of education is simply not prioritized as it should be among certain cultures in the US and there is a lack of confidence that pursuing an education is the most effective way to improve one's lot in life. Education is simply not valued as it should be, and thus other ways of "success" are prioritized higher.

 

Particularly with our young folks who grow up in poorer socioeconomic areas of the country, education has GOT to be presented in a way in which it can be embraced and valued, and I think many of our leaders today simply fail to provide them the opportunity to do exactly that. I don't believe for a second that it has to do with skin color. A few years ago I read that the highest IQ ever recorded (at that time) was that of an African American female. Even though I tend to depart from Obama in certain areas in terms of his politics, I think this was the perfect time to have the first African American president. We need more visible AA leaders and achievers, and we have got to educate our young people of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds or this country is doomed. And that leads me to my last point: The family structure.

 

The traditional family unit is on life support. Kids today simply don't have that strong parental influence as many of us did in the past. I had the benefit of tight family structure as far as the eye could see when I was growing up, and I give that a LOT of the credit as to why I'm (arguably) a well-adjusted, successful person who has achieved educationally and professionally. I had parents who were married all my life and who were involved with me every step of the way. I had grandparents who were married for decades and who had a huge impact on my upbringing, and I even had extended family who further modeled the tight-knit traditional family unit. No divorces anywhere to be seen, education was valued across the board, many of the men had proudly fought in the World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam, and there was healthy communication and support among generations. I'm the richest man in the world because of that...I truly feel that way. And it makes me sad to think that that sort of environment is becoming more and more rare these days.

 

Anyway, the point is that I feel that the cultural influences on our youth is very, very powerful, and until we change our focus and learn to value healthier things, we're screwed.

 

Thanks for a truly awesome post. I could not agree more with every single thing you said..........The breakdown on the family plays such a big part in all this. I heard on an NPR show a month or two ago that in 1950, there were more black two parent households %wise than whites....I found that stunning.........Now both races are in steady decline in that category.