Nanker Posted March 11, 2011 Author Posted March 11, 2011 He did foot the bill for Newton and his agent at dinner the other night. Well, there is that. Maybe he was chintzy on the tip though. Yeah, probably.
Doc Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 A terrific recap of the history of the franchise. What is sad or amusing is the repeated same cycle of mistakes. The owner had within his own organization front office talent. For a variety of reasons they left. As you noted Bill Polian left and has had a sterling record since. Butler/A.J. Smith left for San Diego. For the past decade they have been one of the most consistently winning and entertaining teams in the league. Compare those records to how the Bills have performed over the past dozen years???? I have read a number of accounts as to why Butler left. When his contract was expiring the owner initially gave him a low-ball offer, claiming that Butler was not really a full GM with its accompanying responsibilities but merely a personnel person. Butler was very insulted at the low offer that wasn't competitive with other GMs. He felt that he should be paid in the same range of Peterson of the KC Chiefs who got substantially more. The owner eventually upped his salary offer to a competitive level. It was Butler who at the end was not responding to the owner's offers. The other part of Butler's desire to leave was that he simply tired of dealing with Ralph. He was not an easy person to work for. The owner is the boss. If he wants to incessantly interfere then that is his prerogative, no matter how damaging his behavior is to the operation. Butler, at the end simply wanted out. From JB's standpoint the combination of a corrossive contract process and the oppressive work environment made it impossible for him to stay. Ralph is not a fool. He realized that JB was not going to sign a contract with him, no matter how much he offered. So he fired him the near end of the expiration of the contract. It was a moot point. Because Butler was going to leave. Ralph assessed Butler correctly. He rode the coattails of Polian and relied heavily on AJ Smith, who is the real architect behind the Chargers (Butler was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer just a year and a half after joining SD and died less than a year later, so his involvement with the team was maybe a season and a half at best). Had he been kept as GM of the Bills, they still would have had to undergo a painful rebuilding process and needed to find a new GM after a couple years. And Smith likely would have taken the GM job of the Chargers. Ralph was definitely cheap until the salary cap was in place, after which he spent money on players. But top/name coaches never wanted/want to coach in Buffalo.
tonyjustbcuz Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Ralph is not cheap. The Bills spend money, they just overpay for mediocre players because both and Ralph and his front office are inept. I second that! I was going to comment that Ralph may not be cheap but he overpays players like Chris Kelsay and others who are less deserving, and doesn't like to spend money in key areas that need to be addressed so he hires coaches on the cheap who were out of the leaugue playing Madden for a couple of years on their couch. He then ensures that they hire a bunch of never beens like Modkins who is technically our offensive coordinator, but has 0% experience in that position, so essentially Modkins is a paperweight and Gailey runs the offense during the game as well. Most everyone on his staff that came from Georgia Tech all were bumped up to the next elevated position on his staff with little or no experience in their current positions! So, for Ralph it was an Ultra cheap hire of a coaching staff with moderate name recognition regarding Chan Gailey! Essentially though it is poor management on Ralph's part for hiring that staff as they are overwhelmed at least defensively, and had to hire Dave Wannstendt and give him a lesser position on the defensive staff than he will be really performing. So, because Ralph didn't hire appropriately from the onset, he now has to throw additional money out there now to enhance the coaching positions on the team instead of getting it right, and making the right hire at the position. Another problem with the Bills Organization which begins with Ralph is that he has been hanging onto Tom Modrak for over a decade with next to nothing to show for it! Why? The drafting has been at the bottom of the barrel the past decade, and I would say the past two drafts have been marginal at best. In today's NFL if you draft poorly you still are spending big money on players that perform poorly. Has Aaron Maybin been worth even $100,000 a year to stand on the sidelines and watch the games? No! But, he makes far more than that and has not earned it! Butd due to our organizations ineptness we hang on to Aaron Maybin because we hold this illusion that he is going to suddenly see the light go on, but unknown to the coaching staff the bulb isn't even screwed in all the way! So they continue to pay Maybin anyways..yawn! That is just a microcosm of what Ralph has been doing with his money! So you hire Buddy Nix who is supposedly a scouting guru in the Southeast! He only believes in bringing in the player who is the highest rated "regardless of position" on his draft board...The Bills needs were screaming out last year! (This year!!) etc...Yet you draft a scatback, and even hint around and say that your looking for a scatback before the draft! That's not too intelligent...You don't see Bill Polian doing that stuff! (Mum's the word!) I'll know after this draft if Buddy Nix is the real deal or inept! I know...us Bills fans should stay within our ranks...know our place...refrain from playing GM etc...but if I'd been drafting the past few years we would've had H. Ngata (Baltimore)...Bryan Orakapo (Redskins)..(we got Maybin instead! yuck)..and Clay Matthews!!! We definitely would be a much greater defense! Okay so I would've taken Claussen in the 2nd round! I guess I occasionally miss on a player.. But the Bills miss on players more than they hit...and I'm not that confident that Wang Chung, Spiller, and the rest of our draft class last year will ever be considered a successful draft for us! So in essence, I feel we overpayed for pursuing and drafting the wrong players! Paying to keep the wrong players of marginal talent as well! I mean if you are going to overpay for players...then you should've kept at least some of the following at free agency time: Leonhard, Antwoine Winfield, Nate Clements, Pat Williams, Jabari Greer, etc....but instead we keep the Kelsay's and Whitners. It all starts at the top! Spending money in the right places! Getting the best GM (with experience! that isn't old and nearly washed up..) You may not believe all that now...give it two more years and you may feel differently! Remember the Bills liked Jauron initially and even extended his contract! (again, spending money in the WRONG places)! Okay, Nix prove your worth....draft me Bowers or Dareus with pick #3...stay away from Newton or Gabbert at pick 3.. Give me someone with a very strong arm that can handle the elements like Colin Kapernick or Jake Lockner in the 2nd round if they are there... Follow it up with a OT or DT/DE in the 3rd depending on what we selected in the 1st round and you will have me believing a bit more! Just don't draft a RB, or WR with our first pick or I just might have to give up on the Bills after 46 yrs and root for an upcoming team like the Lions! Edited March 11, 2011 by tonyjustbcuz
JohnC Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Ralph assessed Butler correctly. He rode the coattails of Polian and relied heavily on AJ Smith, who is the real architect behind the Chargers (Butler was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer just a year and a half after joining SD and died less than a year later, so his involvement with the team was maybe a season and a half at best). Had he been kept as GM of the Bills, they still would have had to undergo a painful rebuilding process and needed to find a new GM after a couple years. And Smith likely would have taken the GM job of the Chargers. If grumpy Ralph had a negative assessment of Butler then why did he try to renew his contract? It was when it was obvious that Butler didn't want to continue working for the irrascible owner that he was fired by him. Whether Butler rode the coattails of AJ Smith can be argued. In reality it is irrelevant. The GM doesn't have to be the top talent assessor. His most critical role is to assemble a high quality staff in order to draft well and be smart about the handling of free agency. ad he been kept as GM of the Bills, they still would have had to undergo a painful rebuilding process and needed to find a new GM after a couple years. There is no doubt that the Bills needed to undergo a rebuilding process. That is the nature of the cap cycle. The higher paid veterans decline in performance and are replaced by the younger draftees. There is nothing unusual about that systemic turnover. It is an inescapable part of the NFL landscape. What I am very confidant in saying (hindsight is a wonderful tool) is that Butler and his staff would have in a reasonable amount of time turned things around. The Donahoe and Levy era not only stalled the rebuilding process but it set the franchise back. A generation will have gone by before the team gets to a level of respectability. Ralph was definitely cheap until the salary cap was in place, after which he spent money on players. But top/name coaches never wanted/want to coach in Buffalo. Ralph had no choice but to increase his salary scale because he was required to by the CBA. Although he doesn't have to spend up to the ceiling of the cap there is a minimum amount that he is required not to go below. The problem the owner has had for years is those he hired to make the football decisions were bad hires. That resulted in a lot of poor player and contract decisions that cost him even more money. The Dockery and Langston Walker acquisitions were examples of that. Let me conclude on a little more positive note. I do believe that Nix has a handle on the football side of the operation. He has an understanding as to how to manage a rebuilding job. His approach is the right approach. It is primarily through the draft. It's certainly not a quick process-but it is the most sustainable process. Edited March 11, 2011 by JohnC
billsfreak Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 He did foot the bill for Newton and his agent at dinner the other night. If he really did foot the bill I bet he used coupons and his senior citizen discount.
Turbosrrgood Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 If he really did foot the bill I bet he used coupons and his senior citizen discount. Ralph is cheap, he talks about money in almost every press conference. I understand supporting him because we are Bills fans, but come on, the guy is cheap.
Beerball Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 Well, there is that. Maybe he was chintzy on the tip though. Yeah, probably. Is IHOP running their all you can eat pancake promotion? I think Ralph had Buddy load up his pockets with pancakes so that he didn't have to pay per diem for the next couple days.
Nanker Posted March 11, 2011 Author Posted March 11, 2011 Is IHOP running their all you can eat pancake promotion? I think Ralph had Buddy load up his pockets with pancakes so that he didn't have to pay per diem for the next couple days. I wonder if they share the same motel room when they're on the road together ala Sam Walton.
Doc Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 If grumpy Ralph had a negative assessment of Butler then why did he try to renew his contract? It was when it was obvious that Butler didn't want to continue working for the irrascible owner that he was fired by him. Whether Butler rode the coattails of AJ Smith can be argued. In reality it is irrelevant. The GM doesn't have to be the top talent assessor. His most critical role is to assemble a high quality staff in order to draft well and be smart about the handling of free agency. There is no doubt that the Bills needed to undergo a rebuilding process. That is the nature of the cap cycle. The higher paid veterans decline in performance and are replaced by the younger draftees. There is nothing unusual about that systemic turnover. It is an inescapable part of the NFL landscape. What I am very confidant in saying (hindsight is a wonderful tool) is that Butler and his staff would have in a reasonable amount of time turned things around. The Donahoe and Levy era not only stalled the rebuilding process but it set the franchise back. A generation will have gone by before the team gets to a level of respectability. Butler was part of the problem John. He mismanaged the cap in order to keep things status quo and his last few drafts (1997-2000) weren't anything special. Given the success AJ Smith has had in SD without Butler, I can confidently say that had Ralph paid Butler what Butler thought he was worth (Ralph obviously did not) and Smith left, things wouldn't have been any better, if not worse. And again, using hindsight, Ralph would have had to find a new GM in another year or two given Butler's terminal lung cancer. The problem the owner has had for years is those he hired to make the football decisions were bad hires. That resulted in a lot of poor player and contract decisions that cost him even more money. The Dockery and Langston Walker acquisitions were examples of that. Let me conclude on a little more positive note. I do believe that Nix has a handle on the football side of the operation. He has an understanding as to how to manage a rebuilding job. His approach is the right approach. It is primarily through the draft. It's certainly not a quick process-but it is the most sustainable process. The hiring of TD was a good move at the time. It didn't result in a playoff appearance. Is that Ralph's fault or TD's? I'll grant you Levy was a mistake and the Bills are trying to undo that era. Hopefully they will.
Nanker Posted March 11, 2011 Author Posted March 11, 2011 Butler was part of the problem John. He mismanaged the cap in order to keep things status quo and his last few drafts (1997-2000) weren't anything special. Given the success AJ Smith has had in SD without Butler, I can confidently say that had Ralph paid Butler what Butler thought he was worth (Ralph obviously did not) and Smith left, things wouldn't have been any better, if not worse. And again, using hindsight, Ralph would have had to find a new GM in another year or two given Butler's terminal lung cancer. The hiring of TD was a good move at the time. It didn't result in a playoff appearance. Is that Ralph's fault or TD's? I'll grant you Levy was a mistake and the Bills are trying to undo that era. Hopefully they will. Well said, Doc. Butler's last draft was an abject disaster and he's mostly responsible for the contracts to Bruce, Andre and Thurman. I still don't believe that TD couldn't have kept at least one of them in the stable. What happened to Thurman was disgraceful. I also wonder if some of Ralph's parsimony rubbed off on AJ - or maybe they just hold that trait in common. Look at his dealings with players over the last 2-3 years. This place would be apoplectic with rage if that had been going on here. Seems to be working out pretty well in SD though.
3rdand12 Posted March 11, 2011 Posted March 11, 2011 "A generation will have gone by before the team gets to a level of respectability." uh oh. So that means respectability in say 20?? Dont scare us like that. But you finished up nicely, "Let me conclude on a little more positive note. I do believe that Nix has a handle on the football side of the operation. He has an understanding as to how to manage a rebuilding job. His approach is the right approach." Thanks for finishing on an up note John. This year should show us a lot about whether we are going to be any good at building the team i would guess. Last season felt like a " get to know each and what we have here " year. The boys up top have something to prove this year. Maybe not just to fans but to Ralph ( i hear he is cheap). I think last season they were able to convince most of the players that Nix and Gailey are the guys to take them into respectability. Thanks gentlemen for the good dialogue. When does Chan and Buddy's contract come up agin?
tonyjustbcuz Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 If he really did foot the bill I bet he used coupons and his senior citizen discount. Yeah, and I don't know if mighty taco is really considered a big expense! lol
JohnC Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 "A generation will have gone by before the team gets to a level of respectability." uh oh. So that means respectability in say 20?? If the Bills primarily build through the draft without much participation in the free agent market it is going to take at least another three drafts, not counting this one. There is also an assumption that a talented franchise qb is acquired and developed. If there is a judicious use of free agency the process could be accelerated.
Mr. WEO Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 Newton was wondering why they were eating dinner at 4:00 PM.....
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 Interesting how people think Ralph Wilson isn't cheap, when as I opened this thread, I had just watched a top 10 show on NFL network, and see, of all people Pete Gogolak and his kicking style as one of the most significant Game changing occurrences, and what does he say? (Paraphrasing of course) I was performing very well, and ask the Bills for a raise, they said NO, then the NY Giants offered me more money, and so I went" All the players this team has lost over the course of 50 years is stunning, and yes, every team loses players, but this team seems to at a ridiculous rate. He is merely running the team like a business in the black, and keeping it from having a financial impact on his family once he departs, you can complain, or try to say otherwise, but those are the cold hard facts. That's not to say he hasn't had his moments of spending, and in one case the team did very well, and in another case (TD era) they didn't, he is not about to go down that road again. It's sort of like a debate about an old man that wears his polyester slacks and batik shirts every day and drives his Ford Taurus to the drug store to buy his super-expensive heart medications and serves steak to his dog. Is he thrifty or extravagant?
JohnC Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 It's sort of like a debate about an old man that wears his polyester slacks and batik shirts every day and drives his Ford Taurus to the drug store to buy his super-expensive heart medications and serves steak to his dog. Is he thrifty or extravagant? Depending on the color of the Taurus and whether the old codger is wearing a belt or suspenders some people would think that that is one "cool cat."
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 Aren't we the team that doesn't amortize siging bonuses but counts them as cash against the cap that first year?
nucci Posted March 12, 2011 Posted March 12, 2011 Aren't we the team that doesn't amortize siging bonuses but counts them as cash against the cap that first year? Yes, and there was an article written a while back that said a majority of teams do this.
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