nucci Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Ralph is cheap with the last mile. He'll pay for players, but not for the right person to figure out which players to pay for. He also doesn't want to spend money making the facilities top notch. Which facilities are you talking about? We have an outdoor grass field plus a full size indoor practice field that is one of the better ones in the league. The Redskins do not even have an indoor place to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Which facilities are you talking about? We have an outdoor grass field plus a full size indoor practice field that is one of the better ones in the league. The Redskins do not even have an indoor place to practice. I can only assume it was about Ralph not dishing-out hundreds of millions (in addition to the hundreds of millions the county would need to provide) to build a new stadium that no one could afford to go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webster Guy Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Three Points 1. Your stat shows percentage of players over $1 million. So what. You can pay 100% of the guys on your team a million a year and you'd be about $45 to $50 million under the average NFL team. Total player compensation including bonuses combined with coaching/staff salaries is the relevant number here, not a percentage of guys over a million. Another meaningless stat from Clayton. 2. Putting that stat aside, if you're trying to exonerate Ralph from being cheap you should explain why he is unwilling to setup a logical exit strategy from owning the Bills and communicate that to the loyal fans of Buffalo who have tolerated his playoff drought for 10 years and still love their team in spite of his ineptness. 3. If Ralph wasn't cheap, he would come to the fans and say I appreciate your faith and support, and I will return the favor by setting up a purchase plan that allows for the team to stay here while still giving my family half a billion after tax when I die. It may mean I don't get the absolute best price in the world, but MONEY ISNT THE ONLY FACTOR here and I'd like my legacy to include a guarantee you guys keep the team. Mention my name when you win the Lombardi and I'll be smiling down from heaven on you guys. Rooney would do it for Pittsburgh, hell I'll bet even Al the Scrooge Davis would do it and he's the worst owner in the league. If Ralph doesn't it will be because of money and money only. And THAT'S textbook cheap. Maybe you're right. I sure hope you are, but we'll know for sure when the time comes. Edited March 6, 2011 by Webster Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I can only assume it was about Ralph not dishing-out hundreds of millions (in addition to the hundreds of millions the county would need to provide) to build a new stadium that no one could afford to go to. The one thing you don't need to worry about is Ralph contributing a penny for a new stadium. When you are in your 90s you don't have to concern yourself with the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Three Points 1. Your stat shows percentage of players over $1 million. So what. You can pay 100% of the guys on your team a million a year and you'd be about $45 to $50 million under the average NFL team. Total player compensation including bonuses combined with coaching/staff salaries is the relevant number here, not a percentage of guys over a million. Another meaningless stat from Clayton. 2. Putting that stat aside, if you're trying to exonerate Ralph from being cheap you should explain why he is unwilling to setup a logical exit strategy from owning the Bills and communicate that to the loyal fans of Buffalo who have tolerated his playoff drought for 10 years and still love their team in spite of his ineptness. 3. If Ralph wasn't cheap, he would come to the fans and say I appreciate your faith and support, and I will return the favor by setting up a purchase plan that allows for the team to stay here while still giving my family half a billion after tax when I die. It may mean I don't get the absolute best price in the world, but MONEY ISNT THE ONLY FACTOR here and I'd like my legacy to include a guarantee you guys keep the team. Mention my name when you win the Lombardi and I'll be smiling down from heaven on you guys. Rooney would do it for Pittsburgh, hell I'll bet even Al the Scrooge Davis would do it and he's the worst owner in the league. If Ralph doesn't it will be because of money and money only. And THAT'S textbook cheap. Maybe you're right. I sure hope you are, but we'll know for sure when the time comes. Ralph not telling fans of his succession plan (whether he has one or not, which we don't know) is not a sign of cheapness. The one thing you don't need to worry about is Ralph contributing a penny for a new stadium. When you are in your 90s you don't have to concern yourself with the future. A new stadium would be bad for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 i really like #3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 A new stadium would be bad for everyone. An upgraded stadium as was done in KC would be an investment in the future. Ralph is not concerned with the future. I'm not knocking him for that. I understand his perspective. It's the same perspective coming from a half century of ownership and an accumulated losing record. He is what he is. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 How is spiller not on the list? and Spencer Johnson the 4th largest salary?? Nuckin Futs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 A new stadium would be bad for everyone. Bad for everyone? It might give some guys a gig pouring some concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 An upgraded stadium as was done in KC would be an investment in the future. You mean the $375M renovation of Arrowhead stadium that all but $50M (after the Hunt's originally promised $75M) was paid-for by taxpayers? Bad for everyone? It might give some guys a gig pouring some concrete. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 You mean the $375M renovation of Arrowhead stadium that all but $50M (after the Hunt's originally promised $75M) was paid-for by taxpayers? Your facts are not correct. Nothing new about that. The below quote was taken from Wikipedia. A correction on your part would be in order. "On August 15, 2007, the Chiefs announced final plans for the renovated Arrowhead Stadium, which would cost $375 million. The cost to the city was reduced by $50 million thanks to an additional payment by the Hunt family, which originally had intended to donate just $75 million. The renovated stadium will feature the Chiefs Hall of Honor, currently known as the Chiefs Hall of Fame; a tribute to Lamar Hunt; and "horizon level" seating in which luxury suite owners will be sitting outdoors.[7]" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester43 Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Linky ESPN Tim Graham reported the following: Of the 226 players under contract in the AFC East, only 62 of them (27.4 percent) will make base salaries of $1 million or more. NY J-E-S-T-S Players with base salaries of $1 million or more: 14 Players under contract: 57 Percentage of roster making $1 million or more: 24.6% NewEn Gland Pats* Players with base salaries of $1 million or more: 14 Players under contract: 60 Percentage of roster making $1 million or more: 23.3% Miami Dolphags Players with base salaries of $1 million or more: 15 Players under contract: 55 Percentage of roster making $1 million or more: 27.3% Buffalo Bills Players with base salaries of $1 million or more: 19 Players under contract: 54 Percentage of roster making $1 million or more: 35.2% Of course, this is fuel for the fires of the "Ralph is a senile old bat and doesn't have a clue what's going on, and Buffalo has to overpay for its talent because it's such a lousy place to live... re, re, re..." gang of self-loathing Bills fans. you missed the point. he's cheap because he doesn't want to pay for good decision makers and coaches...which is why we draft bad and overpay guys who suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Your facts are not correct. Nothing new about that. The below quote was taken from Wikipedia. A correction on your part would be in order. "On August 15, 2007, the Chiefs announced final plans for the renovated Arrowhead Stadium, which would cost $375 million. The cost to the city was reduced by $50 million thanks to an additional payment by the Hunt family, which originally had intended to donate just $75 million. The renovated stadium will feature the Chiefs Hall of Honor, currently known as the Chiefs Hall of Fame; a tribute to Lamar Hunt; and "horizon level" seating in which luxury suite owners will be sitting outdoors.[7]" My mistake. Kansas City paid $250M towards the renovation while the Hunt's provided $125M. My point still stands. You focus on minutiae yet still lose the argument. Nothing new about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Every talented coach or front office manager with ability left this team. Why? The old cap (and probably future one) forces RW to pay players. There's never been a requirement to pay for the highest caliber coaches and best front office talent evaluators. John Butler, while not perfect, left because of money. The owner fired and then subsequently sued Wade Phillips, which has to be in the back of the mind of anyone interviewing for a HC job in Buffalo. And just last year, 4 possible HC candidates declined interviews with another, Leslie Frazier, pulling his name from consideration. RW won't just pay people, now his reputation has made it so the organization as a whole can't even attract top guys if they were willing to pay. RW may pay some players, many of whom we wonder why, but when it comes to investing in the manager to pick and coach those players, he's notoriously frugal. And that's how you go 11 years without a playoff appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 My mistake. Kansas City paid $250M towards the renovation while the Hunt's provided $125M. My point still stands. You focus on minutiae yet still lose the argument. Nothing new about that. It's not an issue of winning or losing an argument. It's about being accurate. Assuming the team stays in western NY the issue of a new or refurbished stadium will have to be addressed. My point still stands. I respectfully disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) It's not an issue of winning or losing an argument. It's about being accurate. Assuming the team stays in western NY the issue of a new or refurbished stadium will have to be addressed. I respectfully disagree. The point was that the city/county can ill-afford to spend $325M or even $250M on renovations to the Ralph (the Hunt's certainly weren't going to foot the entire bill for Arrowhead and didn't even come up to 50%). Hell the county some years can't even afford the $3M in stadium upkeep. Let me put this another way. If Ralph were to go to the county and say "I'll put up $125M if you put up $250M for stadium renovations," do you think it would fly? Edited March 6, 2011 by Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 The point was that the city/county can ill-afford to spend $325M or even $250M on renovations to the Ralph (the Hunt's certainly weren't going to foot the entire bill for Arrowhead and didn't even come up to 50%). Hell the county some years can't even afford the $3M in stadium upkeep. Let me put this another way. If Ralph were to go to the county and say "I'll put up $125M if you put up $250M for stadium renovations," do you think it would fly? You're correct. Why indeed would Ralph want to take on a $375M (or larger) debt at this stage of his life? On the other hand, just because he isn't going to do it doesn't mean that no one would do it. Someone who is not risk averse like Jerry Jones (or in the final stages of his estate planning in general) might see a stadium investment as a means of growing the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) You're correct. Why indeed would Ralph want to take on a $375M (or larger) debt at this stage of his life? There was never a time in his half century of ownership of the Bills where he was willing to pay for a new stadium or a needed upgrade of a stadium. Now in his 90s it isn't worth the bother to even bring up such an issue with him. He won't even tell you what his plans are for the team after his passing so why even discuss such a farfetched issue with him. On the other hand, just because he isn't going to do it doesn't mean that no one would do it. Someone who is not risk averse like Jerry Jones (or in the final stages of his estate planning in general) might see a stadium investment as a means of growing the business. Excellent point. When the team is auctioned stadium and associated cost issues will be considered by the prospective owner. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a Pegula type owner take over the reigns????? Edited March 7, 2011 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 You're correct. Why indeed would Ralph want to take on a $375M (or larger) debt at this stage of his life? On the other hand, just because he isn't going to do it doesn't mean that no one would do it. Someone who is not risk averse like Jerry Jones (or in the final stages of his estate planning in general) might see a stadium investment as a means of growing the business. "Growing the business" isn't necessarily what the average fan wants. Growing the business could mean "overpriced luxury suites," "higher ticket prices in exchange for more luxurious facilities," or, more generally, "an effort to extract more money from fans in the future than had been the case in the past." The only way I can think of, off the top of my head, to grow the business without doing any of the above-described things would be to make the stadium bigger, with lots of new low cost seats. That would allow more Average Joe fans to attend games! The problem is that even that would hurt the fans, by increasing the number of tickets the Bills would have to sell to avoid blackouts. I don't want to come across as though I'd categorically rule out all arguments in favor of a stadium renovation without first listening to them. But there's also a strong argument to be made in favor of keeping things more or less as they are for the time being and collecting the revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Buffalo as a city has been in decline for quite awhile, no offense meant. But one of our advantages must be our ticket prices. Growing the business, as mentioned might affect the local fans directly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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