Mr. WEO Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Thank you very much for the info. You might have misread my post on Sanders. I acknowledged that Sanders was better than Whitner. I called him a dynamic player. The problem with him is that he is more often than not hurt. As I noted his crashing style of play, certainly not finesse, is a factor. You may consider him to be a fire plug, but a fire plug out of commission is not very useful when it comes to putting out a fire. I based my response on your description of Sanders as undersized. But I agree he has been injured often. WEO, the bolded is basically my argument too. I fully agree that if they had the same amount of playing time, Sanders would have much better numbers than Whitner because he would be the much better player. HOWEVER, when you put the "if"s aside and deal with reality, what you have in Sanders is a guy who has played in LESS THAN HALF of the games in his career. What good is having the "better" player when he's never on the field? How good can Sanders be from the bench? How does that help improve the team? Do the Bills really need another guy on IR? If you rate Sanders a 90 when healthy, and Whitner an 80, doesnt having an 80 on the field for all 16 games sound better than a 90 for 2 games (and then having to hope his backup plays well)? Well, I have to concede that if the only criterion for being "better" is showing up to work more often, then Whitner would get the nod over Sanders. Otherwise, when healthy, Sanders is a very good safety, whereas Whitner is "Bills good". On the field, there is simply no comparison--just wanted to make that point. But again, I don't see much difference in considering Sanders and hiring Merriman. That was my original contribution to this thread. I really don't care if we pick up Sanders--for the same reasons you have mentioned (which are the same reservations I had about the Merriman hire--I just don't undderstand why they are so different in the eyes of some posters).
JohnC Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) whereas Whitner is "Bills good". The problem with the Bills is that most of the roster are "Bills good" . It has descended down to the level where a lot of fans are exhuberant about an almost win against a good team. At this point I don't believe the Bills have franchised any player because there are no players worthy of earning franchise type of money. How embarrasing is that? But again, I don't see much difference in considering Sanders and hiring Merriman. That was my original contribution to this thread. I really don't care if we pick up Sanders--for the same reasons you have mentioned (which are the same reservations I had about the Merriman hire--I just don't undderstand why they are so different in the eyes of some posters).[/font] Maybe Merriman has a better sack dance????? Edited February 23, 2011 by JohnC
Bill from NYC Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) If you rate Sanders a 90 when healthy, and Whitner an 80, doesnt having an 80 on the field for all 16 games sound better than a 90 for 2 games (and then having to hope his backup plays well)? Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck. He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise. It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games? Edited February 23, 2011 by Bill from NYC
DrDawkinstein Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 (edited) Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck. He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise. It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games? As long as we keep letting our drafted players walk after their first contract is up, and replace them with broken players who only have maaaybe 2 years left in the league, causing us to spend ANOTHER high draft pick on the position... yeah, thats how long we'll keep losing.... Our DBs were not the problem. Keep the guys we have, and shore up the LINES and FRONT 7, then we can think about replacing Whitner. If Whitner is a 65, then that makes Scott and Wilson 55-60s. So after we get 1 game of Sanders at 90, and he goes on IR, you think we'll be better with a 55 in there than with Whitner?? Edited February 23, 2011 by DrDankenstein
Adam Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Part of the reason he had trouble staying healthy was the smallish defensive front that he played behind, exposed him to a lot. If Troupe can crack the lineup this year and we continue to build a strong front seven, Sanders could do well- then again, so could Whitner
DrDawkinstein Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Part of the reason he had trouble staying healthy was the smallish defensive front that he played behind, exposed him to a lot. If Troupe can crack the lineup this year and we continue to build a strong front seven, Sanders could do well- then again, so could Whitner ehhh, from all the clips ive been watching the past couple days, there isnt a lot of him getting rolled by Guards who have clear runs, like Poz and Whitner get. Most of Sanders's injuries were self inflicted from hitting like a truck. I can respect that, but it doesnt bode well for his team. Indy's D was small, but they ran it well. He had lots of clear lanes to blow up runner near the line. And he did. But he also destroyed himself
Bill from NYC Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 As long as we keep letting our drafted players walk after their first contract is up, and replace them with broken players who only have maaaybe 2 years left in the league, causing us to spend ANOTHER high draft pick on the position... yeah, thats how long we'll keep losing.... Our DBs were not the problem. Keep the guys we have, and shore up the LINES and FRONT 7, then we can think about replacing Whitner. Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games. Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner. It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games. Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner. It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity. I dont disagree with this at all. And I dont think teams HAVE to use high picks on DBs. My point had more to do with: that is what the BILLS do. They did it BEFORE Levy, and theyll do it after. The "fan's mindset" really means very little to the team. They didnt draft all these 1st round DBs because WE wanted them to. It's what the BILLS do, for as far back as I can remember. Not just Jauron/Levy. And I blame that on Ralph. What I am sick of, is being a farm team for the rest of the league. And letting our players go, right as they are developing. You have said it yourself that the Bills have neglected the lines and front 7. Im not excusing Whitner's play, but do you really think ANY DBs would have had a chance back there with NO pass rush, and NO run stoppers? People have no problem holding Whitner up to Polomalu, but they completely ignore the comparison of Pitts Front 7 and defensive scheme versus the Bills'. I'm not saying "Pay Whitner whatever he wants", but if we can get him into a $6mil/year deal, keep him around for a few more years, and let the coaches concentrate on developing the Front 7... THEN if he still sucks he can be an easy cap casualty. We're always well under cap so even if no one picks him up (which they will) and we were stuck with $4mil/year in dead money for a few years, itll be worth it. Sticker shock to regular Joes like you and I aside, neither Kelsay's contract nor Whitner at $6mil/year is really that much in the NFL. Heck, 33 year old Champ Bailey was just signed for $10mil/year. Creating more holes is NOT what this team needs. I agree we shouldnt reward Mediocrity, but we dont have any "Greatness" to reward either, so the guys that have put the time in and have been team players through these crappy years do get the reward. Hopefully, with Buddy drafting, we will have some greatness to reward soon enough. But right now, you have to keep the "best we got" even if that is "meh". Edited February 24, 2011 by DrDankenstein
JohnC Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Rewarding mediocre play is a bad idea. Look at the idiotic contract given to Kelsay. Also, Bills fans should purge themselves of the mindset that DBs have to be replaced with high picks. Doing so is a stupid philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons why our beloved team is losing football games. Are you so frustrated that you are willing to gratuitously create more holes? The Bills roster is the epitome of mediocrity. Do you want to dump the whole roster all at once? Whitner is a decent player, nothing more. So what. That category applies to 90% of our roster. If he can be signed for a reasonable price then I would not be adverse to keeping him. Kevin Boss has won football games for the Giants. I would rather the Bills offer him a huge contract than sign a mediocre player such as Whitner. Your line of reasoning is contradictory. On the one hand you say that it was foolish to sign Kelsay for a excessive price. Then you follow up that criticism with a willingness to sign another player for an overvalued price. Let's be consistent here. Why not instead advocate that the Bills be run in a more intelligent manner? I'm not against paying a prermium to get a very much desired player to fill a critical need, but I'm certainly against paying an outsized contract for a player. Too much of that distorted talent/salary foolishness has occurred with this dismal franchise. Your approach is the same approach that the Jauron/Levy regime did with the out of balanced contracts that Dockery and Langston Walker got. It is time for the Bills to purge themselves of the damage that Dick Levy inflicted upon this team. The worst thing they can do is to extend the misery and stupidity. No one disagrees with your sentiment. The best way to change the culture within this chaotic organization is to consistently make sound decisions. By drafting smartly and being judicious with our free agent signings the tide will eventually turn. Most frustrated fans are going to want grander decisions. My request is a little bit milder and more boring; I want general competency.
Phlegm Alley Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I would run the risk of potentially signing a player who the front office deems an upgrade to a position on one of the worst defenses last year and him staying healthy for an entire year than re-sign Whitner and be exposed to the same mediocrity that this defense has had since he was drafted. They are doing it with Merriman, and hopefully, they get it done with Sanders. It could be what is needed to give the defense the identity that they need. Everyone here should agree that Sanders is much better against the run than Whitner, who seemed smallish and wiry, compared to Sanders. This would allow Byrd to do his thing and be a hawk. Bottom Line: if you see the opportunity to get better at a position on a defense that was as bad as they were, you do it and you don't think about "what if..."
JohnC Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Bottom Line: if you see the opportunity to get better at a position on a defense that was as bad as they were, you do it and you don't think about "what if..." Why do you think the Colts, a more wisely run franchise, cut him loose? You are taking on a player with a history of a lack of durability. Sometimes you get what you get. In a profession of crash and more crash don't diminish the ability to stay on the field. That is something the admittedly more talented player has not been able to do for a number of years.
qdawg in philly Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) How did Sanders make plays? What type of player is he? Can you explain the Tampa2 defense to me? Can you do this in detail? Also, explain the SS in the roles of both the 3-4 and 4-3. You are 100% lacking on football knowledge evidently. If u already know, why would u need me to explain it?! But I got a ? for u! What was Sanders last injury and how did he do it? And if I'm so lacking on footbal knowledege why the f*ck would u ask me that question? Have you followed Sanders during the time he played? I can tell u, but look it up! Stay in Philly. What a clueless answer. Yeah one tackle when his shoulder was badly injured. Whitner hits like a truck . Always has. But does he make plays? That's what its about. And he hits like a truck 10 yards after the play! So u tell me, can he cover? Getting trucked isn't the only thing I stated! Get a f*cking grip! And yeah I am Philly and if choose to stay here I will! Wtf is it to u? Obviously your clueless!! Edited February 24, 2011 by qdawg in philly
Aloha22 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Donte isn't worth the 6-8M per year he wants. Give Sanders an incentive laden contract that involves playing time (% of defensive snaps played)
Phlegm Alley Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Why do you think the Colts, a more wisely run franchise, cut him loose? You are taking on a player with a history of a lack of durability. Sometimes you get what you get. In a profession of crash and more crash don't diminish the ability to stay on the field. That is something the admittedly more talented player has not been able to do for a number of years. They have to sign Peyton Manning to a long term deal and they need to pay him. Obviously they would have liked to have kept Sanders, but were hesitant to pay him the $$$ owed to him because they go lack of production from him because of the time he had missed. No question that he is a risk, but he also has a very high reward. I would rather see the team take a gamble on an injury prone Sanders than to re-sign Whitner, a known quantity who hasn't shown much in his career. We would still have Ralph's son George as a backup, who was arguably better than Whitner in the first place.
Bzee Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Please stop. Whitner never was, nor ever will be an "80." He is more of a 65, and I am not being unfair. He tries hard and gets points for this, but his next dominant game will be his first. He is nothing that cannot be replaced by a 4th round pick with a bit of luck. He sure can tweet incoherently, but he is not a very good football player. He is an average player, and a sad example of just how far Dick Levy set back this great franchise. It's time for us to part ways with remnants of the Dick Levy Era, wouldn't you say? Seriously, how long SHOULD we lose football games? I totally agree, whenever you see Sports Center and they show Bills highlights of opposing teams scoring on us guess who's always around getting burned?
John from Riverside Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I cant believe people are actually defending Daunte's play..... Guys....HE CANT COVER
billsfan89 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I think that Sanders is worth the risk give him a low base salary, a lot of incentives, and see if he can go. I like that he is a game changer when healthy but he is so rarely healthy. WE wouldn't be dependent on Sanders as Wilson could just step in.
boyst Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) So, you're not Tony Dungy apparently. Nope, shirley not. Are you joking? Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT (1 every 13.2 games to Sanders 1 in every 8). Which goes to...wait, yeah, you are sort of right, but looking back on it, the Colts D in 2007 was amazing, and he had great DB's to protect the pass and play tight on the WR's. That gave him a lot of opportunities. Also, their running defense was average, at best, allowing him to rack up lots of tackles. This means next to zilch as far as your argument because Whitner and Sanders both played in the Tampa-2 at the same position. Sanders has played in 48 games in his career (according to NFL.com) and Whitner played 43 games at SS in his first 3 years. Since then, Whitner got kicked out to FS and then played in a lousy 3-4 hybrid last year where he accumulated a big number of tackles behind a front 7 that was constantly bleeding to death. Sanders won NFL Defensive Player of the Year honors at the position in 2007. So in roughly the same number of games in the same position in the same defensive system, how can you say one is the product of the system and the other brought the same thing to the field? Maybe a better comparison would be Sanders to Merriman? They've each had about as much success since 2007. I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked. Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career. Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS. If u already know, why would u need me to explain it?! But I got a ? for u! What was Sanders last injury and how did he do it? And if I'm so lacking on footbal knowledege why the f*ck would u ask me that question? Have you followed Sanders during the time he played? I can tell u, but look it up! Torn bicep, really a bad injury, painful and agonizing. He had a bruised knee, and something else with it that was nagging, then something to do with his elbow and/or wrist. I do not write a journal of his injuries, and there are many to remember. Also, somewhere in there I am pretty sure he had a shuolder injury in there somewhere, but that might have been a few seasons ago. He also twisted his ankle while combing his hair, I think. But does he make plays? That's what its about. And he hits like a truck 10 yards after the play! So u tell me, can he cover? Getting trucked isn't the only thing I stated! Get a f*cking grip! And yeah I am Philly and if choose to stay here I will! Wtf is it to u? Obviously your clueless!! Easy on making the replies so personal, kind of ruins the friendly banter atomosphere. Edited February 24, 2011 by jboyst62
qdawg in philly Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Nope, shirley not. Whitner has 5. Sanders has 6. It was a statement of fact in the negative way. For the amount of games played being so close shouldn't he have more INT's?! I mean, we harp on Whitner for not getting the INT. Which goes to... I assumed many knew that Whitner has filled that role, the hybrid Tampa2 safety. The Tampa2 scheme does not give the safety the chance to really ballhawk and get the INT, it focuses on using the SS as a run stopper. The difference between the Tampa2 in Buffalo and Indianapolis. Their defense worked. Donte Whitner has more passes defended, more solo tackles, and more tackles in general because his front 7 has been awful for more of his career. There is no excuse for that, and the fact that you have a 230-240# RB running with a +10yard head start at a DB who is barely 210 lbs. and trying to cut him off should tell you that Whitner has a big responsibility and racked up 323 solo tackles doing so. He hasn't been hurt often and he is more reliable then Bob Sanders who has 221 solo tackles in 48 games in 6 seasons (5.02 per game) compared to 323 in to Whitners 69 games in 5 seasons (4.60 per game). In total Sanders 7.71 tackles has while Whitner has 6.55 taclkes per game. That tells me that while Whitner does not get the solo tackles, he as at the ball just about as much as Sanders - who's line must have been bleeding more because he has far more tackles. What I really want people to realize is that both of these players are very similar, Sanders has a better resume but after being beat up I cannot fathom the idea that he is a better solution then Whitner. Whitner has been on the field for most of his entire career. Whitner also plays SS, Byrd plays FS. Torn bicep, really a bad injury, painful and agonizing. He had a bruised knee, and something else with it that was nagging, then something to do with his elbow and/or wrist. I do not write a journal of his injuries, and there are many to remember. Also, somewhere in there I am pretty sure he had a shuolder injury in there somewhere, but that might have been a few seasons ago. He also twisted his ankle while combing his hair, I think. Easy on making the replies so personal, kind of ruins the friendly banter atomosphere. You got it. I apologize for that! But if I'm not mistaking, the torn bicep was vs san fran and he made an int on that play! He didn't play anymore that season! He makes plays! O....and check this out. I ask several coworkers if they ever heard of DW. They stated they never heard of him and they follow football closely. And thats my point, he doesn't deserve what he's asking for. So are u saying keep him?? Edited February 24, 2011 by qdawg in philly
boyst Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 So are u saying keep him?? I would like to genetically clone Byrd, Whitner and Wilson to create a super safety. In all seriousness, Wilson and Whitner are a good 1-2 punch. Unfortunately, I do not see both of them resigning. Also, Dungy saysSanders could go back to Colts.
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