Ralph's got QB issues

[Kelly the Dog]

His yards per attempt (the average distance the ball travels before it is caught) was 9 yards. Much higher than Fitz's 6.8. Yards per completion account for RAC yards. Brady throws a lot of screens but let's not exaggerate it. He throws down field a lot too. If he didn't, the YPA would be lower. Unless I'm misreading that stat (which is possible).

You are.

[CosmicBills]

YPC counts completed passes only. YPA also factors incompletions. That's why YPA is factored into QB ratings and YPC is not.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Thanks!

 

You are.

[NoSaint]

Really?? I honestly never knew that.

 

Then what's the difference between that and YPC?

 

YPA=yards/attempts

YPC=yards/completions

 

The major difference, completion percentage.

[Kelly the Dog]

So we are knocking Tom for making smart reads and hitting guys in stride? Isn't that part of accuracy? It's easy to complete those passes for garbage ala Trent. It takes smart and accurate throws to produce those results. To complete it, easy. To complete it in a way that results in those yards? Not. There's a reason others don't get that. Is welker the same talent another city? No. Tom and his pin point accurate passes to all levels are a big part of his success.

Not at all. I totally agree with what you wrote, and think Brady is the best quarterback in the league and maybe the best of all time at short passes like that. I was only talking about 1} completion percentage and 2} that Brady's YPA and YPC were not affected too much by his large number of short passes because they often go for substantial gains. The poster I was responding to was comparing those stats.

[NoSaint]

I dont think you're giving the Bills nearly enough credit for how bad we really are.

 

Our line is terrible. And we had a ton of injuries. We had to keep a back in on almost every pass play, and we used gimmicks to fool the defense just so Fitz could get the ball off quickly. He was under constant pressure even on three step drops.

 

We have no TE. The position barely exists on this team. They are not even good blockers but poor receivers, they're bad at both.

 

We have a terrible running game. Freddy Jackson makes most of his yards on his own. We don't get second and 5s after running on first down very often. We can't pick up one yard when we need to on third and short, which is well evidenced by the fact we often go into a spread offense. We can't pound the ball or control the clock or churn out first downs on the ground often at all.

 

Our defense gets killed. We are almost always behind. We are kept off the field for huge stretches, often only getting the ball twice in a quarter. We rarely get three and outs or a lot of turnovers to get good field position which limits our offense in what they can do.

 

We have one WR with speed to stretch the defense, and he got hurt for 1/4 of the year. The only other veteran WR was out for the year after six games or so. I have been watching NFL for almost 50 years and I have never seen a team have a receiver corp of one 7th rounder and three UDFA rookies. That's insane.

 

Under those circumstances, Ryan Fitzpatrick was fantastic, despite his clear struggles and limiitations. Frankly, I think Brees is WAY better than Fitz, in almost every facet, and yet he probably wouldnt have done any better on this team. It's impossible to know. You seem to think he would. I don't think people realize what Fitz did to mask our woeful deficiencies, or realize that it's quite possible for a guy like him to be better for a crappy team than an elite QB would be.

 

I get it. I just think there's a 3-4 game swing between fitz and those guys probably when placed on the exact same squads. saints would have been .500 with fitz I think. Likewise I think the bills win a few more of those close games with brees. I think a lot of times people forget how special some of the top 5-7 qbs really are. They are often on good teams but look how injured the packers, saints, colts were. Think about how great those qbs really played to be where they were too.

 

Fitz overcame a lot, but it's not like those guys are without adversity, and they just keep on producing. Oh, all my wrs are hurt, oh my line is hurt, whatever- 4500 yards. 35 td. 11 wins. A superbowl MVP. It's amazing to watch some every these guys for 16 games in a row. To really follow their seasons, and not just catch a game or two here and there.

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

I get it. I just think there's a 3-4 game swing between fitz and those guys probably when placed on the exact same squads. saints would have been .500 with fitz I think. Likewise I think the bills win a few more of those close games with brees.

Maybe. It's impossible to know. I don't think Brees could have taken nearly the pounding that Fitz took. I listen close to what Gailey says, and he's absolutely right, people don't realize what a difference Fitz made by being as smart as he is. Again I think Brees is a much, much better player. But there were things Fitz was doing to, again, mask our deficiencies, that I don't think the very best in the game, including Brady, manning and Brees could do better. What they could do better are the plays where the line actually did block and Fitz missed relatively easy passes. That happened a couple times a game. But he made more than a couple times a game ridiculous plays with his brain, or arm, or guts, or balls, and sometimes legs that few quarterbacks make. Manning, Brady and Brees would have taken a beating on the Bills they never have experienced no matter how much better they are than Fitz at moving around in the pocket and side-stepping to avoid rushers. All three of them are great at it and it wouldnt have mattered. They would have gotten beat badly.

[Nasty]

I know it's just your opinion -- but that's expecting a lot from a guy who's never hit 60% completion rate in his career. You cannot be an elite QB in this league with a sub 60% completion rate. It's getting to the point where you need to be closer to 65 than 60.

 

While you don't need a football God -- you need an elite QB to win the Super Bowl. That hasn't just been a trend over the past decade, it's been a fact of life in the pass-happy NFL. And Fitz just isn't an elite QB.

So your telling me Trent Dilfer is an elite QB, Eli Manning is an elite QB he had a good year but I would not consider him elite, Brad Johnson is an elite QB not by far. So go back to your point about needing an elite QB to win the Super Bowl....

[thewildrabbit]

Fitz can improve. My point is I don't think that saints team is elite with fitz. They dont get 11 wins and rest starters in week 17 with fitz. As I said in my previous post, I used then because several had referenced brees and as a saints season ticket holder, I happen to see a lot. That offense was no cake walk this year, and without drew they might've been a 6 win team, easily.

 

The N.O. Saint reference-- new Orleans saints?

First of all how can you compare Drew Brees, a QB who has tons of starting experience on some really good teams to a career back up who finally got a chance to play most of the season on a horrible team, and who has always played primely on bad teams.

 

What you clearly don't understand is the difference between a great team and a bad team, you think its all about the QB and that the entire difference between a great/bad team is the play of the QB. Do you get what the meaning of the word TEAM means? I think you guys just don't get how bad that last seasons Buffalo Bills team really was, or still is.

 

Let me tell you something you don't see, that if Tom Brady- Payton Manning- Drew Brees would have started that game the Bills played against the Jets this season that they would have been running for their lives just like Fitz did. The bigger question is... would any of them have survived that game?

Fitz was the leading rusher in that game as there was no ground game from the RBs whatsoever, and he has an ability to scramble better then most QB's in the league. His release is on par with those guys, his decision making this year in most games was on par, it was his surrounding cast that was so bad, and is the primary reason for the Buffalo Bills 4-12 season, no question.

 

In making these comparisons to teams and QB's that recently won a SB shows me that you guys really don't understand just how important the QB's supporting cast is, O line-TE-receiver corps-RB's .

[NoSaint]

Maybe. It's impossible to know. I don't think Brees could have taken nearly the pounding that Fitz took. I listen close to what Gailey says, and he's absolutely right, people don't realize what a difference Fitz made by being as smart as he is. Again I think Brees is a much, much better player. But there were things Fitz was doing to, again, mask our deficiencies, that I don't think the very best in the game, including Brady, manning and Brees could do better. What they could do better are the plays where the line actually did block and Fitz missed relatively easy passes. That happened a couple times a game. But he made more than a couple times a game ridiculous plays with his brain, or arm, or guts, or balls, and sometimes legs that few quarterbacks make. Manning, Brady and Brees would have taken a beating on the Bills they never have experienced no matter how much better they are than Fitz at moving around in the pocket and side-stepping to avoid rushers. All three of them are great at it and it wouldnt have mattered. They would have gotten beat badly.

 

fair enough, in its own way it really is comparing apples to oranges using last years stats. i think trying to remain objective though, those three probably have a higher football iq then fitz, and athletically (especially brees) these guys are more mobile then you are giving them credit for. all things considered, i dont think fitz is bad, but i think if we see a chance to get a guy like them, we would be dumb to pass it up. we need to upgrade a lot of positions to be a perennial contender, and qb is on that list.

[trolls_r_us]

1) Ralph is 92, going on 93.

 

2) Ryan Fitzpatrick is NOT winning you a Super Bowl. He couldn't even win you the Chiefs game.

 

3) Other teams have WR who drop balls. Try watching some other teams' games.

 

4) Ralph Wilson is the freaking MAN. He's seen enough football to realize that Fitzy is a cute story, but Ralph wants to WIN a Super Bowl, not get the "almost won against a good team" trophy that Fitz wins him every week.

 

5) Anyone who compares Fitzpatrick to Brees is totally clueless about football outside of the Bills. There is no other way to say it. Brees' completion % is so much higher than Fitzs' that it's a JOKE to even go any further.

Edited February 18, 2011 by trolls_r_us

[NoSaint]

First of all how can you compare Drew Brees, a QB who has tons of starting experience on some really good teams to a career back up who finally got a chance to play most of the season on a horrible team, and who has always played primely on bad teams.

 

What you clearly don't understand is the difference between a great team and a bad team, you think its all about the QB and that the entire difference between a great/bad team is the play of the QB. Do you get what the meaning of the word TEAM means? I think you guys just don't get how bad that last seasons Buffalo Bills team really was, or still is.

 

Let me tell you something you don't see, that if Tom Brady- Payton Manning- Drew Brees would have started that game the Bills played against the Jets this season that they would have been running for their lives just like Fitz did. The bigger question is... would any of them have survived that game?

Fitz was the leading rusher in that game as there was no ground game from the RBs whatsoever, and he has an ability to scramble better then most QB's in the league. His release is on par with those guys, his decision making this year in most games was on par, it was his surrounding cast that was so bad, and is the primary reason for the Buffalo Bills 4-12 season, no question.

 

In making these comparisons to teams and QB's that recently won a SB shows me that you guys really don't understand just how important the QB's supporting cast is, O line-TE-receiver corps-RB's .

 

i get that its more then just qb. i also think qb is a bigger difference maker then you are crediting. which of those tom brady, drew brees, peyton manning teams win the superbowl without a top 5 qb? honestly, a few of those teams might not make the playoffs with a middle of the pack qb. i know that not one of them make it to the playoffs this year with fitz, or about 20 other qbs at the helm.

 

again, for some reason you guys keep saying you cant compare the two and then in the same breathe, comparing them. As i have said many many times, i used the comparison because many, including people in this thread, and you in your post, have compared them and i dont think its a fair comparison. im guessing im one of few if any that has attended every home game and seen every game played for one of those top 5-7 guys, and it has been beyond a priveledge. its honestly been amazing to watch. i watch fitz and hes good, but its just not the same. just like trent to fitz was a huge jump with the same talent surrounding them, fitz to those guys is a huge jump.

 

in 3 seasons fitz has played in about 35 games? hes not some guy thats never played before and is coming out of the blue. they would have struggled, but i think they have as much if not more football smarts. they also have a lot more athleticism then people are giving credit for. brees was a legit prospect to pursue about 3-4 sports as a professional career. drews 40 is two tenths of a second quicker then fitzs. peyton manning is a full tenth quicker as well. to say that they couldnt have done the same is just silly. they wouldnt have gotten the team to the playoffs, but yes, they would have done better and will continue to do so. i want a guy like them on my team someday. doesnt mean i dont want fitz on my team too. to say the gap isnt large though, or that an offseason going to training camp as starter is going to make all the difference is silly.

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[thewildrabbit]

I dont think you're giving the Bills nearly enough credit for how bad we really are.

 

Our line is terrible. And we had a ton of injuries. We had to keep a back in on almost every pass play, and we used gimmicks to fool the defense just so Fitz could get the ball off quickly. He was under constant pressure even on three step drops.

 

We have no TE. The position barely exists on this team. They are not even good blockers but poor receivers, they're bad at both.

 

We have a terrible running game. Freddy Jackson makes most of his yards on his own. We don't get second and 5s after running on first down very often. We can't pick up one yard when we need to on third and short, which is well evidenced by the fact we often go into a spread offense. We can't pound the ball or control the clock or churn out first downs on the ground often at all.

 

Our defense gets killed. We are almost always behind. We are kept off the field for huge stretches, often only getting the ball twice in a quarter. We rarely get three and outs or a lot of turnovers to get good field position which limits our offense in what they can do.

 

We have one WR with speed to stretch the defense, and he got hurt for 1/4 of the year. The only other veteran WR was out for the year after six games or so. I have been watching NFL for almost 50 years and I have never seen a team have a receiver corp of one 7th rounder and three UDFA rookies. That's insane.

 

Under those circumstances, Ryan Fitzpatrick was fantastic, despite his clear struggles and limitations. Frankly, I think Brees is WAY better than Fitz, in almost every facet, and yet he probably wouldn't have done any better on this team. It's impossible to know. You seem to think he would. I don't think people realize what Fitz did to mask our woeful deficiencies, or realize that it's quite possible for a guy like him to be better for a crappy team than an elite QB would be.

Thank you, finally someone else who gets the team aspect , and well stated BTW to look at last years team and think a different QB could have won more games is absurd in my view

 

Quite frankly, thinking Brees-Manning or Brady could have run for their lives better then fitz did this past year is simply being delusional. Perhaps the only two QB's I think could have MAYBE done better with this team is Aaron Rodgers and Ben Rothlisberger with their scrambling abilities, even then its debatable

 

 

 

 

 

Lets not forget that the bills learned the hard way that Spiller can't block.... In my view, this years Buffalo Bills was about equal to the 08 winless Detroit Lions save for QB Ryan Fitzpatrick, who should have received the NFL equivalent of the congressional medal of honor for his service to the Buffalo Bills this year. He clearly earned every penny they paid him, he even earned what they paid some of the other players.

 

i get that its more then just qb. i also think qb is a bigger difference maker then you are crediting. which of those tom brady, drew brees, peyton manning teams win the superbowl without a top 5 qb? honestly, a few of those teams might not make the playoffs with a middle of the pack qb. i know that not one of them make it to the playoffs this year with fitz, or about 20 other qbs at the helm.

 

again, for some reason you guys keep saying you cant compare the two and then in the same breathe, comparing them. As i have said many many times, i used the comparison because many, including people in this thread, and you in your post, have compared them and i dont think its a fair comparison. im guessing im one of few if any that has attended every home game and seen every game played for one of those top 5-7 guys, and it has been beyond a priveledge. its honestly been amazing to watch. i watch fitz and hes good, but its just not the same. just like trent to fitz was a huge jump with the same talent surrounding them, fitz to those guys is a huge jump.

 

in 3 seasons fitz has played in about 35 games? hes not some guy thats never played before and is coming out of the blue. they would have struggled, but i think they have as much if not more football smarts. they also have a lot more athleticism then people are giving credit for. brees was a legit prospect to pursue about 3-4 sports as a professional career. drews 40 is two tenths of a second quicker then fitzs. peyton manning is a full tenth quicker as well. to say that they couldnt have done the same is just silly. they wouldnt have gotten the team to the playoffs, but yes, they would have done better and will continue to do so. i want a guy like them on my team someday. doesnt mean i dont want fitz on my team too. to say the gap isnt large though, or that an offseason going to training camp as starter is going to make all the difference is silly.

You say you do, but you don't....

 

You are still comparing a backup QB who played 35 games on horridly bad teams to elite SB winning QB''s and their teams, if you can't see the difference in that, then it is pointless to continue this discussion

[NoSaint]

Thank you, finally someone else who gets the team aspect , and well stated BTW to look at last years team and think a different QB could have won more games is absurd in my view

 

Quite frankly, thinking Brees-Manning or Brady could have run for their lives better then fitz did this past year is simply being delusional. Perhaps the only two QB's I think could have MAYBE done better with this team is Aaron Rodgers and Ben Rothlisberger with their scrambling abilities, even then its debatable

 

 

 

 

 

Lets not forget that the bills learned the hard way that Spiller can't block.... In my view, this years Buffalo Bills was about equal to the 08 winless Detroit Lions save for QB Ryan Fitzpatrick, who should have received the NFL equivalent of the congressional medal of honor for his service to the Buffalo Bills this year. He clearly earned every penny they paid him, he even earned what they paid some of the other players.

 

 

You say you do, but you don't....

 

You are still comparing a backup QB who played 35 games on horridly bad teams to elite SB winning QB''s and their teams, if you can't see the difference in that, then it is pointless to continue this discussion

 

 

do you just not realize that you are comparing them?

 

brees is faster, more mobile, and i think has a better football iq. i also think he has a stronger, more accurate arm. which part of that am i totally flubbing? just because fitz ran more doesnt make him more mobile. brees knows he is too valuable to take those hits, and he instead puts the ball in the air. though, again, brees is faster (fact) and has better awareness (probably a widely agreed on opinion) so i tend to believe if he wanted to, he'd probably be able to keep pace with downfield running.

 

why shouldnt i believe he wouldnt have done better?

 

why is you saying he wouldnt do better not comparing them?

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[San-O]

Ralph has to say something. QB is an issue if going to the playoffs.

 

Bills aren't going anywhere right now anyhow.

[mrags]

Kyle orton?

 

13 games

20 tds

9 ints

3600 yards

87qb rating

 

32 ranked defense (yardage and points)

Um. He did say with BETTER stats. I'm not sure about anything other than TDs and INTs really, but I'm pretty sure he had more TDs, and close to the same yardage. With 3 less gales played to boot.

 

Just saying

[thewildrabbit]

do you just not realize that you are comparing them?

 

brees is faster, more mobile, and i think has a better football iq. i also think he has a stronger, more accurate arm. which part of that am i totally flubbing? just because fitz ran more doesnt make him more mobile. brees knows he is too valuable to take those hits, and he instead puts the ball in the air. though, again, brees is faster (fact) and has better awareness (probably a widely agreed on opinion) so i tend to believe if he wanted to, he'd probably be able to keep pace with downfield running.

 

why shouldnt i believe he wouldnt have done better?

 

why is you saying he wouldnt do better not comparing them?

So what ! I only bring it up because you started to compare the entire teams and their respective QB's.... vs each other...Bills vs Saints is a moronic comparison . Fitz vs Brees is a moronic comparison. My comparison was only on the QB's scrambling abilities, which Drew Brees is NOT noted for, neither is Brady or Manning! However, Brees a superbly accurate pocket passer and has a completely different style of play then Fitz, the latter is more of a gunslinger type. One QB has been a career back up, while the other has been a career starter on above average and or playoff teams, with better coaches, better players, better schemes, better play calling. I'd say that Drew Brees is better then Fitz in just about every aspect....except in one area, that is running for his life, Fitz did an exemplary job at that feat this season , even Mike Vick didn't do as well as Fitz did this year. Is it any wonder as to why Brees is better then Fitz... given the teams they have both played on.

 

Also note that Fitz didn't make it thru the season without suffering an injury, he was injured last season and knocked out for a game, same as this year. All I'd like to see is Fitz get the chance to show what he can do as a full time starter, of course everything depends on how the Bills build his surrounding cast.

 

 

 

Have a TiVo? Go back and watch that Jets game in which Brian Brohm started, that play from Brohm is what you will see when an inexperienced rookie QB starts for the Bills this year, should they draft one and start him. Expecting a rookie QB to come out in this years draft and play like Sam Bradford or Rodger Stafford is foolish, there is nobody with that high a grade in this years draft.

[CosmicBills]

So your telling me Trent Dilfer is an elite QB, Eli Manning is an elite QB he had a good year but I would not consider him elite, Brad Johnson is an elite QB not by far. So go back to your point about needing an elite QB to win the Super Bowl....

I adressed this in a previous post. Yes, you need an elite QB to win a Super Bowl in today's NFL. Without one, you can be a playoff team, maybe make a Super Bowl if you catch a break. But the odds of winning one without an elite QB are slimmer than ever before in the leagues history. 10% according to the past decade (Dilfer did not win a Super Bowl in the last ten years).

 

Again this is opinion, but opinion backed up by the clear history of the past decade. To think otherwise seems silly when you look at the facts. But it's not an absolute by any means. You can hope to get lucky. You can hope to build not just a great defense but one of the best in history. Or you can hope your team finds an elite QB. Frankly it's easier and more realistic to find a QB, ain't it?

[CosmicBills]

So what ! I only bring it up because you started to compare the entire teams and their respective QB's.... vs each other...Bills vs Saints is a moronic comparison . Fitz vs Brees is a moronic comparison. My comparison was only on the QB's scrambling abilities, which Drew Brees is NOT noted for, neither is Brady or Manning! However, Brees a superbly accurate pocket passer and has a completely different style of play then Fitz, the latter is more of a gunslinger type. One QB has been a career back up, while the other has been a career starter on above average and or playoff teams, with better coaches, better players, better schemes, better play calling. I'd say that Drew Brees is better then Fitz in just about every aspect....except in one area, that is running for his life, Fitz did an exemplary job at that feat this season , even Mike Vick didn't do as well as Fitz did this year. Is it any wonder as to why Brees is better then Fitz... given the teams they have both played on.

 

 

There is where you're not seeing our point. That statement implies that the ONLY difference between Fitz and Brees are their surrounding casts. You imply that if by some miracle of science we were able to go back in time and switch Fitz's career w Brees' and suddenly Fitz is on the Chargers and then the Saints that he'd be just as good as Brees.

 

I think you're wrong. It's not just the supporting cast. It's the talent level that is innate. It can't be taught or learned. Its just there in Brees and not in Fitz.

 

Look at it another way. If that switch was made and Fitz was on the Chargers then the Saints w all the same supporting cast members ... new Orleans, in my opinion, doesn't win the Super Bowl. They might not even make the playoffs ... THAT'S what you're missing or disagreeing with.

Edited February 18, 2011 by tgreg99

[1billsfan]

Correct.

 

I use the saints as an example because numerous posters have said they think fitz is nearly as good as those elite qbs. Living in new orleans, and being a saints season ticket holder, it's the team out of the elites I'm probably most well versed in.

 

When it comes down to it, those qbs produce no matter what happens. With all that adversity, the saints won 11 games. That includes a loss with the kicker missing a 30 yarder, and a loss with the starters pulled.they didn't have a street free agent at RT but they played them at RB all year. There line, tho better then the bills, not great. Colston had knee surgery during the season. Meachem had a tow injury he never overcame. The receivers dropped a ridiculous number of catches. He was injured - he still played fantastic. Peyton had how many injuries to his offense? Brady traded moss for branch, amazing still. At some point people bringing up Stevies drops, or roscoes injury? Barely worth mentioning in comparison. My point is those guys produce huge numbers and no one gives them any excuse but fitz is being held totally unaccountable for his completion percentage, poorly times interceptions or record.

 

I like fitz. I want fitz to start next year. I want to find our future though. Anyone who watches a guy like brees week in and week out would see how obvious the gap in talent really is. It's not just the team around them.

 

No, we say that Fitzpatrick could be nearly as good as Brees and we provide evidence of that time and time again. We say that Fitzpatrick had looked to turn the corner after his 30th start just like Brees did…

 

2003 Brees had 11 TDs in 11 games

2004 Brees had 27 TDs in 15 games

 

2009 Fitzpatrick had 9 TDs in 8 games

2010 Fitzpatrick had 23 TDs in 13 games

 

Are you saying that given a 16 game season, Fitzpatrick couldn't possibly throw 27 TDs? Yes, Brees is better than Fitzpatrick, but he's not this all time great who's impossible to come close to in performance. The final verdict will be the 2011 season, where it's more probable than not that Fitzpatrick throws between 26-30 TDs.

[Dorkington]

All Fitz has to do is be a bit more accurate, and he'll be up there in the QB rankings, imo.