Ralph's got QB issues

[NoSaint]

Payton Manning played behind an inferior line this season compared to other years, and it showed, he was hit more often, and had to hurry his throws more often. Manning was basically forced to be the entire Colts offense, with a poor running game and weak defense and many injuries to his receiving corps. This years Colts team didn't make it very far in the Playoffs because of all the injuries and the poor play of their O line. You can bet all the talk about the Colts forums is about rebuilding that O line in this years draft to protect their best player. The current Buffalo Bills O line is far inferior to anything the Colts fielded this season, with walk ons off the street at RT, and virtually no TE. At least the Colts had a decent backup TE in Jacob Tamme who could step in and replace Dallas Clark somewhat.

 

Again, you guys are comparing a freaking part time back up QB who suddenly emerged to an above average QB for the Bills to elite super bowl winning QB's in Manning and Brees....Its freaking ridiculous to even make those comparisons. How in the heck can you guy be so sure that Fitz won't further develop his completion % and accuracy.... you can't!

 

All I'd like to see if Fitz be given the chance to start this year after giving him an off season to prepare to be the starter, let him be the focal point of Chan Gailey's off season program. Hopefully the bills can build a proper running game to support him

 

i think we all agree fitz is our starter this year. but can i ask, why can we not say we dont think he will be as good as those guys, but you can argue without question he could be?

 

also, jacob tamme is a prime example of what im saying -- do you think jacob tamme plays like that in buffalo or was that a peyton manning miracle creation? obcviously the colts are more talented, but i think the gap between peyton and fitz is much wider then you are admitting, and would take a miracle for it to close.

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[White Linen]

I think it's a little bit sh#ty how Ralph has said time and time again how we need a QB to make the playoff. I thinks that a little bit of a slap to Fitz. I know Fitz is not the second coming of Jim Kelly, but I don't unstand how that helps the team in the long run. Ralph should believe what ever he wants, but why announce it over and over. I have a lot of respect for fitz, he not Manning, Brady, or Bree, but he plays hard, has a lot of guts, and at least it's not this constant cycle of 3 and out. Other then maybe flutie, he played better then any other Qb since Jimbo retirement.

 

I think the thing you're not considering is how much credit Gailey should get in Fitz's "turn around". This is not his first year in the league, he hasn't shown anything close to what he displayed this year. There were times when he was awful, lets not forget that. He was most definitely better than what we've seen over the last decade or so, but I think it's an over shot to think Buffalo still doesn't need to be searching for a QB.

[jack_spikes]

I'd like to see Fitz become a serious gym rat with the weights. I think it would do wonders for his game.

[NoSaint]

LOL. Did you mak that up? I'm checking this out. And I'm not exactly calling him a premier QB either.

 

its true.

 

just like i dont think orton is suddenly going to become elite, i dont think fitz is. that said, ill take either on my team any day of the week. they are solid dependable guys that you can count on if you need to turn the offense over to them for a few games, or even a season (as i think we will do next year, while we groom someone), but i dont think you count on year in and year out playoff and probowl performances.

[thewildrabbit]

im saying more of that gap is because of the difference between drew and fitz than most would like to admit. im not implying the talent level is the same but players come and go, great players - and the production doesnt disappear. to attribute this to roscoe getting hurt is... silly. i bet drew would have loved to have a lee evans. his line wasnt all that great this year. i wouldnt be surprised to see 2-3 new starters on it from last year. drew had his 5-6th string running back carrying the load for stretches, long stretches, several injuries on the outside, and a weak line this year that actually got him injured. he still put up monster numbers. why do we say that is a product of everyone but drew? fitz is not a guy that dropped on one of those teams would be a probowler. he wouldve struggled in new orleans also. guys like drew, tom, peyton.... they all make coaches, lines, receivers look better.

 

to say that fitz has a poor completion percentage because of drops, these top qbs had more dropped passes! the gap widens when you include things like that.

 

to say his completion percentage is because he throws deeper, yet he has a lower YPC

 

you cant just cherry pick stats, he is generally better across the board, and yes, just like he improved the team compared to trent, if we magically had one of those qbs, we would see another big jump. when it comes down to it, if you put put on any of those teams, they would be .500 teams.

Hey man, you were the one comparing the super bowl champs to a 4-12 team, and those 4 wins only came about because of a career back up QB playing better then he ever previously played. No offense, but that comparison alone completely kills any credibility about anything you say.

 

Then you go on to talk about drops... cherry picking ....and his stats, wtf do his stats have to do with anything? This years 4-12 team has to be one of the worst I've ever watched, and the only bright spot on the team is a back up QB, and you guys are trying to compare him to elite SB winning QB's, unreal !

 

Just stop the comparisons and think for a min, this horridly bad team with no defense almost beat the Ravens-Chiefs -Steelers, all in OT, all playoff teams.... basically because one guy played above what he had done the past. The only dropped pass I'll ever mention is the one by Stevie Johnson that would have beaten a SB caliber team in OT, the Steelers.

[CosmicBills]

Hey man, you were the one comparing the super bowl champs to a 4-12 team, and those 4 wins only came about because of a career back up QB playing better then he ever previously played. No offense, but that comparison alone completely kills any credibility about anything you say.

 

Then you go on to talk about drops... cherry picking ....and his stats, wtf do his stats have to do with anything? This years 4-12 team has to be one of the worst I've ever watched, and the only bright spot on the team is a back up QB, and you guys are trying to compare him to elite SB winning QB's, unreal !

 

Just stop the comparisons and think for a min, this horridly bad team with no defense almost beat the Ravens-Chiefs -Steelers, all in OT, all playoff teams.... basically because one guy played above what he had done the past. The only dropped pass I'll ever mention is the one by Stevie Johnson that would have beaten a SB caliber team in OT, the Steelers.

You're totally missing No Saint's point. But that's cool.

 

He's not comparing Fitz to the elite QBs because he thinks Fitz is bad. Quite the opposite. He's comparing them because other people are claiming Fitz is as good as those QBs (or can be) and just needs a better supporting cast. That's folly.

[BiggieScooby]

I know it's just your opinion -- but that's expecting a lot from a guy who's never hit 60% completion rate in his career. You cannot be an elite QB in this league with a sub 60% completion rate. It's getting to the point where you need to be closer to 65 than 60.

 

While you don't need a football God -- you need an elite QB to win the Super Bowl. That hasn't just been a trend over the past decade, it's been a fact of life in the pass-happy NFL. And Fitz just isn't an elite QB.

 

All elite QB's have way better weapons & throw a ton of short passes. Fitz got 150 yards from his Tight End position, has no Wes Welker safety valve and the RBs were rarely targeted. I'll take 57% completion percentage than 62% Trent "Capt Checkdown" Edwards.

 

Tom Brady has made a career off of throwing WR screens, RB screens, and WR crosses - simple 1 to 2 yard passes with a lot of YAC. How many of these types of passes did Gailey even draw up in '10?

[CosmicBills]

All elite QB's have way better weapons & throw a ton of short passes. Fitz got 150 yards from his Tight End position, has no Wes Welker safety valve and the RBs were rarely targeted. I'll take 57% completion percentage than 62% Trent "Capt Checkdown" Edwards.

 

Tom Brady has made a career off of throwing WR screens, RB screens, and WR crosses - simple 1 to 2 yard passes with a lot of YAC. How many of these types of passes did Gailey even draw up in '10?

Sorry -- the stats don't back that up. Brady was 9.0 YPA (7.5 career) and 12.0 YPC (11.6 career) while hitting 65.9% in 2010. Fitz was 6.8 YPA (6.0 career) and 11.8 YPC (10.5 career) while completing only 57%.

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry -- the stats don't back that up. Brady was 9.0 YPA (7.5 career) and 12.0 YPC (11.6 career) while hitting 65.9% in 2010. Fitz was 6.8 YPA (6.0 career) and 11.8 YPC (10.5 career) while completing only 57%.

Don't really know what you're saying there. Brady throws all kinds of 1-2 yard passes that go for 10-20-30 yards. That makes his Yards per attempt and yards per completion go up even though they were safe easy passes that send your completion percentage skyrocketing because they have a 90%+ or so completion rate. Like the poster said, Gailey doesn't call a lot of those, and we don't have the guys that run them well, except maybe Roscoe (who hasn't had a great record on them for the most part either).

[NoSaint]

You're totally missing No Saint's point. But that's cool.

 

He's not comparing Fitz to the elite QBs because he thinks Fitz is bad. Quite the opposite. He's comparing them because other people are claiming Fitz is as good as those QBs (or can be) and just needs a better supporting cast. That's folly.

 

Correct.

 

I use the saints as an example because numerous posters have said they think fitz is nearly as good as those elite qbs. Living in new orleans, and being a saints season ticket holder, it's the team out of the elites I'm probably most well versed in.

 

When it comes down to it, those qbs produce no matter what happens. With all that adversity, the saints won 11 games. That includes a loss with the kicker missing a 30 yarder, and a loss with the starters pulled.they didn't have a street free agent at RT but they played them at RB all year. There line, tho better then the bills, not great. Colston had knee surgery during the season. Meachem had a tow injury he never overcame. The receivers dropped a ridiculous number of catches. He was injured - he still played fantastic. Peyton had how many injuries to his offense? Brady traded moss for branch, amazing still. At some point people bringing up Stevies drops, or roscoes injury? Barely worth mentioning in comparison. My point is those guys produce huge numbers and no one gives them any excuse but fitz is being held totally unaccountable for his completion percentage, poorly times interceptions or record.

 

I like fitz. I want fitz to start next year. I want to find our future though. Anyone who watches a guy like brees week in and week out would see how obvious the gap in talent really is. It's not just the team around them.

[thewildrabbit]

1. All true. Yet he still hit 66% of his passes for 4,700 yards and 33 TDs. Where his stats suffered were in YPC which dropped nearly a full yard to 6.8. Why? Because he adapted to his team and took a team that wasn't as talented as years past and still led them to the post season.

 

2. They made the playoffs. The Bills won 4 games with Fitz.

 

3. No one is arguing otherwise. Not sure the point of this ...

 

4. I agree it is ridiculous to compare Fitz to the elite QBs in the league because he is not an elite QB. But it's ridiculous to think that if Fitz were swapped out with an elite QB like Manning, Brady or Brees they would not put up as good if not better numbers than Fitz.

 

5. True. I can't be sure he won't continue to develop. But I believe, like many others, that accuracy can't be taught. Fitz has the mental capacity to be an elite QB, he just doesn't have the physical tools. That won't change the longer he's in a system. But then again, of course I could be wrong there. I'm just going with the odds. It's a long shot to think he'll improve his accuracy any more than a percentage point or two.

 

6. Me too. No one is arguing that Fitz shouldn't be the starter in '11.

 

Are you guys seriously brain damaged ot what? you are comparing elite SB winning QB's on teams that recently won a SB.... to a guy who was a career back up QB ...that finally played most of a season ...on one of the worst 4-12 teams ever.

 

I have NEVER stated that fitz will win the SB or even take any team to a SB or even playoffs for that matter. I'm just saying that the guy deserves a chance to enter this next season as the starter, deserves the chance to show what he can do with a full off season and pre season behind him, with Chan Gailey focusing his attention to helping Fitz become a better QB. Fitz is a brash gunslinger type in the mold of Brett Farve and Jay Cutler, he will always try and force the ball where he shouldn't, but then he will make more big plays then most would.

 

All I'm saying is I'd rather see fitz be given a chance at full time starter, then watch some rookie go thru 3 years of painfully development and learning, which usually means another 3 years of losing as there is no Sam Bradford-Rodger Stafford in this years draft

[CosmicBills]

Don't really know what you're saying there. Brady throws all kinds of 1-2 yard passes that go for 10-20-30 yards. That makes his Yards per attempt and yards per completion go up even though they were safe easy passes that send your completion percentage skyrocketing because they have a 90%+ or so completion rate. Like the poster said, Gailey doesn't call a lot of those, and we don't have the guys that run them well, except maybe Roscoe (who hasn't had a great record on them for the most part either).

His yards per attempt (the average distance the ball travels before it is caught) was 9 yards. Much higher than Fitz's 6.8. Yards per completion account for RAC yards. Brady throws a lot of screens but let's not exaggerate it. He throws down field a lot too. If he didn't, the YPA would be lower. Unless I'm misreading that stat (which is possible).

Edited February 18, 2011 by tgreg99

[NoSaint]

Don't really know what you're saying there. Brady throws all kinds of 1-2 yard passes that go for 10-20-30 yards. That makes his Yards per attempt and yards per completion go up even though they were safe easy passes that send your completion percentage skyrocketing because they have a 90%+ or so completion rate. Like the poster said, Gailey doesn't call a lot of those, and we don't have the guys that run them well, except maybe Roscoe (who hasn't had a great record on them for the most part either).

 

So we are knocking Tom for making smart reads and hitting guys in stride? Isn't that part of accuracy? It's easy to complete those passes for garbage ala Trent. It takes smart and accurate throws to produce those results. To complete it, easy. To complete it in a way that results in those yards? Not. There's a reason others don't get that. Is welker the same talent another city? No. Tom and his pin point accurate passes to all levels are a big part of his success.

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[thewildrabbit]

You're totally missing No Saint's point. But that's cool.

 

He's not comparing Fitz to the elite QBs because he thinks Fitz is bad. Quite the opposite. He's comparing them because other people are claiming Fitz is as good as those QBs (or can be) and just needs a better supporting cast. That's folly.

 

I'm not missing anyones point, he clearly compared the Buffalo Bills team to last years SB winning Saints, whats folly is you guys stating that you know Fitz won't improve if the team around him improves

[NoSaint]

I'm not missing anyones point, he clearly compared the Buffalo Bills team to last years SB winning Saints, whats folly is you guys stating that you know Fitz won't improve if the team around him improves

 

Fitz can improve. My point is I don't think that saints team is elite with fitz. They dont get 11 wins and rest starters in week 17 with fitz. As I said in my previous post, I used then because several had referenced brees and as a saints season ticket holder, I happen to see a lot. That offense was no cake walk this year, and without drew they might've been a 6 win team, easily.

 

The N.O. Saint reference-- new Orleans saints?

Edited February 18, 2011 by NoSaint

[K-9]

His yards per attempt (the average distance the ball travels before it is caught) was 9 yards. Much higher than Fitz's 6.8. Yards per completion account for RAC yards. Brady throws a lot of screens but let's not exaggerate it. He throws down field a lot too. If he didn't, the YPA would be lower. Unless I'm misreading that stat (which is possible).

 

Yes. You are misreading that stat. YPA is simply a QB's gross yards passing/number of attempts. Brady's YPA for 2010 was 7.9. Has nothing to do with the average distance a ball travels in the air before it's caught. That's actually funny to think about, though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[hammie65]

Are you really implying that Brady and Manning are only accurate passers because of the weapons they have? Do you REALLY want to make that argument? Think it through. Tom Brady, Manning, Brees and other elite QBs make their receivers better. Not the other way around. Brady is one of the more accurate passers in the league and he's done it without the benefit of a stable receiving corps. Look at how good Deon Branch was with Brady and how little he did without him. That's just one example of many.

 

Accuracy is, in my opinion, one of -- if not THE -- most important quality in an NFL QB. It's something Fitz has never had. To say otherwise is just false. It's not the weapons. It's the QB.

 

That's not to say that lines aren't important. They are. But it's far easier to find a pro-bowl caliber LT or DE than it is QB. That's just the way it is. Fitz is NOT an elite QB. Can he become one? Maybe. Anything is possible. Is it likely though? That's the question.

 

 

... re-read what I wrote.

 

Doug Williams?

 

I'm not saying ONLY, I'm saying that all QB's are to "some extent" elevated by the players around them. Yes, the great QB's elevate the other players around them but where would many of them be or have been without the weapons that they had or have? It's not totally the weapons or the QB, it's both. I'm NOT saying Fitzy is in the league of these guys but I am saying that if we get better caliber players on the team, his level of play should and will (I believe) go up and I also believe he's played well (not perfect) on a bad team which is better than most. I think we should look to draft another QB and wouldn't flip out if they drafted one now with the #3. I just am a firm believer that most games are won in the trenches and believe our trenches need serious work first. I also believe that no QB will survive long without a strong supporting cast, especially on the O and D lines. Put Brady, Manning, or Rogers on last season's Carolina Panthers and there's no way anyone would ever convince me that they'd have even close to the numbers they had on their current teams. I do agree with you about accuracy by the way and do say it is a weakness that Fitzy (as many others) needs to continue working on.

[CosmicBills]

Yes. You are misreading that stat. YPA is simply a QB's gross yards passing/number of attempts. Brady's YPA for 2010 was 7.9. Has nothing to do with the average distance a ball travels in the air before it's caught. That's actually funny to think about, though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Really?? I honestly never knew that.

 

Then what's the difference between that and YPC?

[Kelly the Dog]

Correct.

 

I use the saints as an example because numerous posters have said they think fitz is nearly as good as those elite qbs. Living in new orleans, and being a saints season ticket holder, it's the team out of the elites I'm probably most well versed in.

 

When it comes down to it, those qbs produce no matter what happens. With all that adversity, the saints won 11 games. That includes a loss with the kicker missing a 30 yarder, and a loss with the starters pulled.they didn't have a street free agent at RT but they played them at RB all year. There line, tho better then the bills, not great. Colston had knee surgery during the season. Meachem had a tow injury he never overcame. The receivers dropped a ridiculous number of catches. He was injured - he still played fantastic. Peyton had how many injuries to his offense? Brady traded moss for branch, amazing still. At some point people bringing up Stevies drops, or roscoes injury? Barely worth mentioning in comparison. My point is those guys produce huge numbers and no one gives them any excuse but fitz is being held totally unaccountable for his completion percentage, poorly times interceptions or record.

 

I like fitz. I want fitz to start next year. I want to find our future though. Anyone who watches a guy like brees week in and week out would see how obvious the gap in talent really is. It's not just the team around them.

I dont think you're giving the Bills nearly enough credit for how bad we really are.

 

Our line is terrible. And we had a ton of injuries. We had to keep a back in on almost every pass play, and we used gimmicks to fool the defense just so Fitz could get the ball off quickly. He was under constant pressure even on three step drops.

 

We have no TE. The position barely exists on this team. They are not even good blockers but poor receivers, they're bad at both.

 

We have a terrible running game. Freddy Jackson makes most of his yards on his own. We don't get second and 5s after running on first down very often. We can't pick up one yard when we need to on third and short, which is well evidenced by the fact we often go into a spread offense. We can't pound the ball or control the clock or churn out first downs on the ground often at all.

 

Our defense gets killed. We are almost always behind. We are kept off the field for huge stretches, often only getting the ball twice in a quarter. We rarely get three and outs or a lot of turnovers to get good field position which limits our offense in what they can do.

 

We have one WR with speed to stretch the defense, and he got hurt for 1/4 of the year. The only other veteran WR was out for the year after six games or so. I have been watching NFL for almost 50 years and I have never seen a team have a receiver corp of one 7th rounder and three UDFA rookies. That's insane.

 

Under those circumstances, Ryan Fitzpatrick was fantastic, despite his clear struggles and limiitations. Frankly, I think Brees is WAY better than Fitz, in almost every facet, and yet he probably wouldnt have done any better on this team. It's impossible to know. You seem to think he would. I don't think people realize what Fitz did to mask our woeful deficiencies, or realize that it's quite possible for a guy like him to be better for a crappy team than an elite QB would be.

[K-9]

Really?? I honestly never knew that.

 

Then what's the difference between that and YPC?

 

YPC counts completed passes only. YPA also factors incompletions. That's why YPA is factored into QB ratings and YPC is not.

 

GO BILLS!!!