NoSaint Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 OK, I'll bite. It's pretty simple really. There are all kinds of head games to be played. One very simple example - you leak out (through Carucci) that you like Cam Newton so that another team lower in the draft who's drooling for him, makes a generous trade up offer to get into your slot so you don't take him. Or, you leak that you like Jordan to throw others off the trail of other DL's you like (possibly to ensure your guy remains on the board in the 2nd or 3rd round). It really goes on and on... I'm not saying that this stuff works - there's no conclusive proof of that. so your saying we are setting up "i reeeaallly like cam but if you want to give me a bargain basement offer, (becuase like i said, only about 3 teams have to picks to get to us) i would totally give up on my qb of the future" if anything, that drives up denvers value, not ours. As for getting our dlineman, again, you can say all that, but who is this dlineman we are wanting to take that we want to trick everyone into thinking we dont really like?
K Gun Special Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Not only that, but Jordan is a prototype 3-4 end. The duties are a little different (some would say a lot different). So Jordan could be the #4 DE on some scout's board but be the #1 3-4 DE on that same scout's board. Mayock, right now, has him the #2 senior DE and the #4 overall DE (Mayock is in love with Watt right now after studying him closer.) Bowers is #1. Clayborn at #3 and Jordan ahead of Robert Quinn, who some of these same guys don't think is such a reach. These ratings, of course, change. And Mayock is not the end all, although I personally think he is very good and one of the best out there (that we get a chance to hear). Jordan is going to climb up everyone's board after the Senior Bowl, and likely to after the combine, and even more likely to after interviews and private workouts, etc. Everything everyone says about the guy is extremely positive. The only question, as stated, is if he is going to be a star. Right now he's one of if not the most reliable player you could possibly draft. except that as ive shown upthread, the rating dont really change. The only place theres any really movement is on these "mock" draft websites which are a mockery themselves. You see the teams essentially have their boards set before the combine nowadays. They might adjust a grade here or there based on combine performance but teams arent going to have players skyrocketing based on some drills and an interview.
truth on hold Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 I like Jordan too. He's better than that over hyped Personal Foul machine Fairley. BUT why are they reaching for a DE? What the line needs is an NT. Ideally they get Miami's or take a flyer on Rodgers. Then Trou[e can back him up. If that works out, then Williams goes to DE, along with Carrington, Kelsay and Edwards, Bills now have a quality line. AND they can focus on what their front 7 needs most: LINEBACKERS. I'm sorry, but the only "Cam" that makes any kind of sense at #3 last name "Newton."
Ramius Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Most teams dont do a lot of changing of their board based on the combine.... its a myth to keep interest up and to get you to watch TV and click on websites. http://m.si.com/news/to/to/detail/2382928;jsessionid=8D800976594D3E7570169B59894A1D18.cnnsi2b http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/02/07/ravens-finalizing-big-board-prospects/ Teams pretty much have their board set and might adjust a grade a little based on watching a player run drills. Nobody rockets up draft boards........they might for the mock guys but not for the actual teams. So dont listen to the hype about combines making a huge impact. Nix has said as much. THANK YOU!!!!!!! Bill Polian was on the radio down here a few years ago and said this exact thing. He said that the combine and what not may move a player a few slots, but thats it. NFL draft boards are close to set long before the combine. The only people who think a combine vaults a player from the 3rd round to the 1st are the moron draftniks with no sources (todd mcshay) and the guys posting from mom's basement (walter football).
NoSaint Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Not only that, but Jordan is a prototype 3-4 end. The duties are a little different (some would say a lot different). So Jordan could be the #4 DE on some scout's board but be the #1 3-4 DE on that same scout's board. Mayock, right now, has him the #2 senior DE and the #4 overall DE (Mayock is in love with Watt right now after studying him closer.) Bowers is #1. Clayborn at #3 and Jordan ahead of Robert Quinn, who some of these same guys don't think is such a reach. These ratings, of course, change. And Mayock is not the end all, although I personally think he is very good and one of the best out there (that we get a chance to hear). Jordan is going to climb up everyone's board after the Senior Bowl, and likely to after the combine, and even more likely to after interviews and private workouts, etc. Everything everyone says about the guy is extremely positive. The only question, as stated, is if he is going to be a star. Right now he's one of if not the most reliable player you could possibly draft. in all fairness i dont think anyone is considering robert quinn for DE in our system. i also thought that the whitner comments were very interesting earlier. i can see now the threads complaining about how hes not a 10 sack a year guy.... doesnt mean we shouldnt get him- never listen to the fans- but i totally see the threads. THANK YOU!!!!!!! Bill Polian was on the radio down here a few years ago and said this exact thing. He said that the combine and what not may move a player a few slots, but thats it. NFL draft boards are close to set long before the combine. The only people who think a combine vaults a player from the 3rd round to the 1st are the moron draftniks with no sources (todd mcshay) and the guys posting from mom's basement (walter football). im not sure who thought it would be 3rd round to 3rd pick. i think my example of 10-15 up to 5-10 and at that point being ok with that "reach" if thats your guy. many careers will be on the line at 3, take a guy you believe in, not the guy the media wants to make you.
K Gun Special Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 THANK YOU!!!!!!! Bill Polian was on the radio down here a few years ago and said this exact thing. He said that the combine and what not may move a player a few slots, but thats it. NFL draft boards are close to set long before the combine. The only people who think a combine vaults a player from the 3rd round to the 1st are the moron draftniks with no sources (todd mcshay) and the guys posting from mom's basement (walter football). Thanks. Its as if GMs will disregard the football the kid has played because he runs a 4.2 and not a 4.3.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 except that as ive shown upthread, the rating dont really change. The only place theres any really movement is on these "mock" draft websites which are a mockery themselves. You see the teams essentially have their boards set before the combine nowadays. They might adjust a grade here or there based on combine performance but teams arent going to have players skyrocketing based on some drills and an interview. 1. Cam Jordan doesn't need to rocket up any NFL team's boards. He's going to be right at the top five of all of them already. He's not a sleeper, he's known to be that good and always has been. The top five can easily change several times between the end of the season, bowl games, all star games, combine, pro workouts, interviews, wonderlics, team visits, background checks, etc. Like you, I don't think they drastically change either, but the order of the top five, when they are closely rated already can change on a daily basis. One bad interview can send a guy from 1-3 or 4 on a team's list. 2. I'm not really talking about team's boards as much as pundit boards for fans, which is really what all this whining about reaches is all about on these boards. We aren't privy to team boards. There is more disinformation I'd imagine being passed along to pundits, bloggers and reporters than solid insider information. Again, I'd argue strongly that Cam Jordan is already at the top of NFL team boards at DE. 3. At the top of boards, outside of a few blue chips guys, there ain't a lot of difference in, say, the top two DE and the #3 and #4 DE on a team's board. That's just my opinion but I think it's true in general terms. It does, happen all the time, however, that perhaps two DEs are really highly rated and the two below him are rated well below them, I'm just saying that the #2 DE may come out to an 8.5 and the #3 and #4 may be 8.4 or 8.3, not that big a difference. I have long thought that a #6 or #7 pick is virtually no different at all from an UDFA who is signed immediately after the draft.
DreReed83 Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 WOW...we know who we're taking before combines and pro days? give me a break people.
K Gun Special Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 1. Cam Jordan doesn't need to rocket up any NFL team's boards. He's going to be right at the top five of all of them already. He's not a sleeper, he's known to be that good and always has been. The top five can easily change several times between the end of the season, bowl games, all star games, combine, pro workouts, interviews, wonderlics, team visits, background checks, etc. Like you, I don't think they drastically change either, but the order of the top five, when they are closely rated already can change on a daily basis. One bad interview can send a guy from 1-3 or 4 on a team's list. 2. I'm not really talking about team's boards as much as pundit boards for fans, which is really what all this whining about reaches is all about on these boards. We aren't privy to team boards. There is more disinformation I'd imagine being passed along to pundits, bloggers and reporters than solid insider information. Again, I'd argue strongly that Cam Jordan is already at the top of NFL team boards at DE. 3. At the top of boards, outside of a few blue chips guys, there ain't a lot of difference in, say, the top two DE and the #3 and #4 DE on a team's board. That's just my opinion but I think it's true in general terms. It does, happen all the time, however, that perhaps two DEs are really highly rated and the two below him are rated well below them, I'm just saying that the #2 DE may come out to an 8.5 and the #3 and #4 may be 8.4 or 8.3, not that big a difference. I have long thought that a #6 or #7 pick is virtually no different at all from an UDFA who is signed immediately after the draft. I agree with what you said here, i didnt mean my post to be in reply to yours and i wasnt commenting on Jordan specifically.
T master Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 I would rather have Jordon at 3 than Mabin at 11 or Losman - at least we get some production for our money & time spent on the guy !!
LabattBlue Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 WOW...we know who we're taking before combines and pro days? give me a break people. Says the guy who is convinced that Cam Newton will be a failure at the NFL level before said combine and pro days take place.
JPicc2114 Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 That would be a disgusting typical Buffalo Bills pick.
Beerball Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 except that as ive shown upthread, the rating dont really change. The only place theres any really movement is on these "mock" draft websites which are a mockery themselves. You see the teams essentially have their boards set before the combine nowadays. They might adjust a grade here or there based on combine performance but teams arent going to have players skyrocketing based on some drills and an interview. I would hope that the interview weighs more heavily for certain players, specifically QBs, DBs and perhaps WRs. Isn't having a chance to listen to a QB break down a play and explain what he is seeing important? Where else is a team going to get this type of information? Do they rely on the college coaches? Do they wait until after the draft when they are sitting in the team's film room?
Kelly the Dog Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 I would hope that the interview weighs more heavily for certain players, specifically QBs, DBs and perhaps WRs. Isn't having a chance to listen to a QB break down a play and explain what he is seeing important? Where else is a team going to get this type of information? Do they rely on the college coaches? Do they wait until after the draft when they are sitting in the team's film room? Don't be fooled!! I bet Trent Edwards was great at that!!
Ramius Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 That would be a disgusting typical Buffalo Bills pick. Why? He's arguably the best 3-4 DE in the country at the collegiate level. We need help along the DL. Why is that a disgusting pick? (And don't even bring back the tired old, "he'd be a reach at 3, we should only take him at 10" line)
JPicc2114 Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Hes a reach Sounds a lot like Tyson Jackson who went #3. Edited February 15, 2011 by Mr. Negative
Ramius Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 im not sure who thought it would be 3rd round to 3rd pick. i think my example of 10-15 up to 5-10 and at that point being ok with that "reach" if thats your guy. many careers will be on the line at 3, take a guy you believe in, not the guy the media wants to make you. We're actually in agreement here. (I wasn't specifically referring to Jordan when i made the above point of players appearing to "jump" in the eys of draftniks) If the Bills think jordan is going to be a good one, then they should take him at #3. If a guy is good enough to be drafted at #10 or 11, he's good enough to be drafted at #3. Hes a reach What an awesome, high quality, in depth analysis of Jordan.
Beerball Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Don't be fooled!! I bet Trent Edwards was great at that!! You're right...but I still stand my my statement. (especially when you're talking about guys you might take at the top of the draft)
JPicc2114 Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Picking any defensive end at #3 in my opinion is a reach. You need to get an impact, franchise changing player if you pick in the top 3 and unless you are an elite pass rusher, left tackle, or Quarterback. You should not get picked top 3 Suh is a gamechanging pass rushing DT. So I consider him an exception.
jumbalaya Posted February 15, 2011 Posted February 15, 2011 Pat Moran just tweeted that a source within the organization has continuously mentioned Cam Jordan as a possible pick for us at 3. I don't know how I feel about that. If he actually makes an impact I'm fine with it, just think there are better I doubt that anyone has settled on a pick yet.
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