San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 In an epic 10 page thread on The Stadium Wall, there was a strong consensus that Mike Shanahan's first year with the Redskins was a resounding flop. This view was met with very little disagreement. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/124673-official-shanahan-thread/page__p__2058925__fromsearch__1#entry2058925 It's time to take a look at the other "whale"…actually a Walrus, that Bills fans here and elsewhere were desperately clamoring for last offseason, Mike Holmgren. As you all know, Holmgren was hired by the Browns as President at a rumored salary of between $8-10 million per year. So how's he done so far? His first big decision was whether to retain Eric Mangini as his Head Coach following a 5-11 2009 season. After some deliberation and meetings, Holmgren elected to keep Mangini. Mangini steered the Browns to another 5-11 season in 2010. Even worse, he weakened the team by working counter to Holmgren and General Manager Tom Heckert. According to a story in Cleveland Plain-Dealer, Tony Grossi touches on some issues between Mangini and his superiors. Mangini was the prime mover in the trade of talented tailback Jerome Harrison to the Philadelphia Eagles. In the last 3 weeks of the 2009 season, Harrison had over 600 yards with 5 TDs and was viewed as a possible breakout talent. Mangini decided that Peyton Hillis was his workhorse and when Harrison pouted, Mangini pushed to have Harrison traded. While Hillis had a nice season, he became less and less effective as the season wore on and the Brown's one-dimensional attack over-relied upon him. In fact the Browns only kept two running backs active on Sundays. They could have used the explosive Harrison to lend much needed big-play ability to the offense. Instead the player was maligned, alienated, and ultimately traded. In the same story, GM Heckert (who along with Holmgren share much of the blame for enabling Mangini's behavior) called the trade acquisition and subsequent non-use of linebacker Jayme Mitchell "bizarre." "He was by far our best pass rusher and never got on the field, so I can't answer that one. Eric (Mangini) watched him (on tape prior to the trade) and liked him. So I don't know what happened after that. He's a nickel pass rusher on third down. We thought he could really rush the passer." Unfortunately for the Browns, Mitchell's contract is up and he can now be a free agent. Holmgren also made the head scratching free agent signing of Jake Delhomme. He paid the quarterback about $7 million in 2010 and if he brings back Delhomme, will be on the hook for $5.4 million next year…all for a player that most league observers considered to be washed up. So in his first year as President, Holmgren brought back a Head Coach who ultimately failed again, and in the process allowed that coach to have too much say over personnel. He also got very mixed reviews for his player personnel decisions. All for the low, low price of $8-10 million.
KD in CA Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Not to defend Holmgren (way too early to judge his performance IMO), but you're reaching to criticize the decision to make Hillis (finished 11th in rushing) his primary back and trade Harrison (a career change of pace back who is 3 years old than Hillis) if he was a malcontent.
BuffaloBill Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 He also got very mixed reviews for his player personnel decisions. All for the low, low price of $8-10 million. I would argue that it is too early to pass judgement on Holgren. After all you might argue that Nix is in much the same situation with Buffalo. I know it is apples and oranges to compare the situation in the two ball clubs. Bottom line is that you are not likely to turn a team around in one year.
Captain Hindsight Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Like it or not the decision to retain Mangini was the right call. The team won its last 3 or 4 games his first season with the team. With Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn no less. He had to see if he would be able to turn it around Making Hillis his feature back and trading a malcontent backup? Eh seems like a good decision to me. He got Colt McCoy as a decent starter in the third round and is cutting some dead weight from old regimes. Delhomme was and still is a head scratcher escpecially considering the price tag but he needed stabiility and he was a decent option. Like others have said, give him more than a year
Billshank Redemption Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Absolutely noone was "clamoring" for holmgrem...dumb post
Frostbelt City Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 The Browns beat the Patriots Nuff' said
Hplarrm Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Like it or not the decision to retain Mangini was the right call. The team won its last 3 or 4 games his first season with the team. With Derek Anderson and Brady Quinn no less. He had to see if he would be able to turn it around Making Hillis his feature back and trading a malcontent backup? Eh seems like a good decision to me. He got Colt McCoy as a decent starter in the third round and is cutting some dead weight from old regimes. Delhomme was and still is a head scratcher escpecially considering the price tag but he needed stabiility and he was a decent option. Like others have said, give him more than a year I think not only do you have to give Holmgren (and Shanahan and even Nix for that matter) more than a couple of seasons before making any final judgments, in general HCs and to some extent GMs really get far more blame and also far more credit than they deserve for outcomes on their watch. It certainly strikes me as legit to question or praise the direction a team seems to be headed in. Thus neither Holmgren or Shanny should be immune to comment. However, any comment simply must come with not just a grain but in fact a boulder of rock salt after the first year. Overall, it is simply the case that HCs like Marv can be total losers and idiots as he was during his stint at KC but whether folks want to acknowledge it or not had a team which produced great results on his watch to the tune of 4 SB appearances. Vince Lombardi deserves to have the SB trophy named after him given the historic icon deserving job he did with the Pack. However he simply sucked as Redskins HC. Likewise Mangini proved he had the right stuff as HC in his earlier gigs but his record of failure at Cleveland (particularly given the fact last year was under new management it is simply too early to draw legit conclusions.
Bills!Win! Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Holmgren inherited a bad team and had a really good draft and is building for the future. Shanny signed with a team on the rise with veteran players and then totally blew it. I wonder who wins this one? Edited February 13, 2011 by OverPowerYou
Green Lightning Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Shanny is arrogant and a spender. He was good when he had a great QB and so-so since. I was glad we didn't get him last year and moreso this year.
Rockinon Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Who cares about Shanny when we got Wanny......................................stache. Edited February 13, 2011 by Rockinon
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2011 Author Posted February 14, 2011 Absolutely noone was "clamoring" for holmgrem...dumb post There were plenty of threads clamoring for Holmgren as there were for Shanny. Dumb post. I think not only do you have to give Holmgren (and Shanahan and even Nix for that matter) more than a couple of seasons before making any final judgments, in general HCs and to some extent GMs really get far more blame and also far more credit than they deserve for outcomes on their watch. It certainly strikes me as legit to question or praise the direction a team seems to be headed in. Thus neither Holmgren or Shanny should be immune to comment. However, any comment simply must come with not just a grain but in fact a boulder of rock salt after the first year. Overall, it is simply the case that HCs like Marv can be total losers and idiots as he was during his stint at KC but whether folks want to acknowledge it or not had a team which produced great results on his watch to the tune of 4 SB appearances. Vince Lombardi deserves to have the SB trophy named after him given the historic icon deserving job he did with the Pack. However he simply sucked as Redskins HC. Likewise Mangini proved he had the right stuff as HC in his earlier gigs but his record of failure at Cleveland (particularly given the fact last year was under new management it is simply too early to draw legit conclusions. I agree that it's too early to judge anyone after one year on the job but that certainly hasn't prevented plenty of people from questioning the direction that Buddy Nix has the Bills pointed in. It seems unfair to me to judge Nix as many have done here (even today) but I am only applying the same standard that many here are applying…a one year appraisal of the job that these men have done. Be assured that the bosses of all of these men have evaluated their performances so far as has the fan base and the media covering the teams. As for your comment about Lombardi, he didn't suck as Redskins head coach. He took a team that had a losing record the previous two years and improved them to 7-5-2 in his one season. The following season they reverted back to being a losing team. It took the tenure of Hall of Fame coach George Allen to turn around the fortunes of that franchise.
Adam Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 Harrison was a bum. He gave no effort at all in camp or the preseason. You have to get rid of guys like that
Nanker Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 I don't remember a ton of posts for MH. I do remember a ton of posts for Shanny - and I admit that I was really hoping for it - and happy at the prospect of having him coaching The Bills. I'm very glad that his wifey just said no to snow and Buffalo (or so the story goes). All of those posts were dwarfed by the sheer number of bring on the Chin posts. If Bills Nation votes would have counted more than a bucket of warm spittle, he'd have been hired in a heart beat. Holmgren is cerebral. Sha-na-na is mental. There's a difference. Then again, there's The Chin. And if Simon's to be believed, wouldn't coach the midgets to a division title without LeBeau The Beautiful at his side.
JohnC Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 In an epic 10 page thread on The Stadium Wall, there was a strong consensus that Mike Shanahan's first year with the Redskins was a resounding flop. This view was met with very little disagreement. Why is it concluded that Shanahan's first year was a flop? If that is the case then to be consistent you must also conclude that Gailey is more of a flop because his first year's record with the Bills was worse than MS's. Both HCs are in the process of turning over the roster of the prior regimes and rebuilding their respective rosters. It is patently unfair to draw any conclusions so early in the rebuilding process. After three years you will have a better vantage point to make a fair assessment on how MS is doing. Why jump to any conclusion at such an early stage of his tenure? I'm not directing my comments to you but there is a large faction of fans here who get energized by the struggles of other franchses. I don't understand that smug attitude coming from a fanbase of one of the worst run franchises in the league. You don't get ahead by luxuriating in the troubles of others. That is not a sign of confidence; it is a sign of inferiority.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2011 Author Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) Harrison was a bum. He gave no effort at all in camp or the preseason. You have to get rid of guys like that If he was a bum, he was a bum who ran for over 600 yards and 5 TDs in his last three games, playing a large role in helping Mangini save his job. Maybe his attitude in Cleveland wasn't salvageable…maybe it was and the notoriously polarizing Mangini failed to bring him back into the fold. I don't remember a ton of posts for MH. I do remember a ton of posts for Shanny - and I admit that I was really hoping for it - and happy at the prospect of having him coaching The Bills. I'm very glad that his wifey just said no to snow and Buffalo (or so the story goes). All of those posts were dwarfed by the sheer number of bring on the Chin posts. If Bills Nation votes would have counted more than a bucket of warm spittle, he'd have been hired in a heart beat. Holmgren is cerebral. Sha-na-na is mental. There's a difference. Then again, there's The Chin. And if Simon's to be believed, wouldn't coach the midgets to a division title without LeBeau The Beautiful at his side. Undoubtedly Cowher was atop the "most wanted" list. But I recall numerous posts with Cowher, Shanahan, and Holmgren as the objects of the fans' desires, in that order. There was an uproar at the report that Holmgren refused to speak with the Bills even though it was reported that the Bills would meet his price. Why is it concluded that Shanahan's first year was a flop? If that is the case then to be consistent you must also conclude that Gailey is more of a flop because his first year's record with the Bills was worse than MS's. Both HCs are in the process of turning over the roster of the prior regimes and rebuilding their respective rosters. It is patently unfair to draw any conclusions so early in the rebuilding process. After three years you will have a better vantage point to make a fair assessment on how MS is doing. Why jump to any conclusion at such an early stage of his tenure? I'm not directing my comments to you but there is a large faction of fans here who get energized by the struggles of other franchses. I don't understand that smug attitude coming from a fanbase of one of the worst run franchises in the league. You don't get ahead by luxuriating in the troubles of others. That is not a sign of confidence; it is a sign of inferiority. I've rarely been one to take pleasure in the misfortunes of others. Nor am I the kind of person who leaps to conclusions. My posts tend towards the sober, the positive and the optimistic. But we all judge/evaluate/grade players, coaches, GMs, etc based on very small sample sizes. For instance, many posters here have expressed their disappointment in Nix, Spiller, Troup, Carrington, etc. The Gailey hiring was heavily criticized. Last January, I posted numerous times about how as Holmgren gained more power in Seattle that his ability to manage personnel came under increasing scrutiny. If you ask people in Seattle, they would tell you he was a great coach and a poor (de facto) General Manager. My post (as was my Shanahan and my Todd Haley/3 offensive coordinators in 3 years posts) is mostly directed at those fans who criticize everyone the Bills hire/draft and criticize them for all the players/coaches/etc that they didn't hire/draft. If Gailey erred in giving Trent Edwards another chance, is it not fair game to criticize Holmgren for retaining Eric Mangini and signing Jake Delhomme? Aren't the two above moves further proof (on top of his GM tenure in Seattle) that Holmgren is quite possibly a bad fit as an administrator? Anyways, it seemed like a good topic after the relentless onslaught of threads re-hashing the upcoming draft prospects. Edited February 14, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan
Lv-Bills Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 Why is it concluded that Shanahan's first year was a flop? If that is the case then to be consistent you must also conclude that Gailey is more of a flop because his first year's record with the Bills was worse than MS's. Both HCs are in the process of turning over the roster of the prior regimes and rebuilding their respective rosters. It is patently unfair to draw any conclusions so early in the rebuilding process. After three years you will have a better vantage point to make a fair assessment on how MS is doing. Why jump to any conclusion at such an early stage of his tenure? I'm not directing my comments to you but there is a large faction of fans here who get energized by the struggles of other franchses. I don't understand that smug attitude coming from a fanbase of one of the worst run franchises in the league. You don't get ahead by luxuriating in the troubles of others. That is not a sign of confidence; it is a sign of inferiority. Absolutely. This is maybe the dumbest post of the offseason so far. It reeks of inferiority. They have both just turned in their first year for two of the biggest dysfunctional franchises in the league (with the Bills being right there with them). And both still have no QB. And in the Redskins case, they also have no WR's. Stupidity can come in all salaries. Cornell Green, CJ Spiller, Kelsay to LB anyone? All three teams haven't had enough time to turn around total disasters yet, but to act like a Holmgren or Shanny run team is awful seems a bit laced with jealousy. I would say though, that if Shanahan doesn't get some kind of results this year, he'll be the first to start hearing critcism. He is in his perfect world with an owner that likes to spend as much as he does. We'll see how it all turns out.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2011 Author Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) Absolutely. This is maybe the dumbest post of the offseason so far. It reeks of inferiority. They have both just turned in their first year for two of the biggest dysfunctional franchises in the league (with the Bills being right there with them). And both still have no QB. And in the Redskins case, they also have no WR's. Stupidity can come in all salaries. Cornell Green, CJ Spiller, Kelsay to LB anyone? All three teams haven't had enough time to turn around total disasters yet, but to act like a Holmgren or Shanny run team is awful seems a bit laced with jealousy. I would say though, that if Shanahan doesn't get some kind of results this year, he'll be the first to start hearing critcism. He is in his perfect world with an owner that likes to spend as much as he does. We'll see how it all turns out. Yeah it's even dumber than the most recent topic you started (the one so dumb that it got only one response): http://forums.twobil..._1#entry2091639 "Even though no real Pittsburgher has called any one of their three sports teams by those colors. I guess Black and Gold is frowned upon now. Just sayin. I hate the Steelers. Please someone stop the Steeler luck. That's all I got. I needed to vent." Edited February 14, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan
Lv-Bills Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 If he was a bum, he was a bum who ran for over 600 yards and 5 TDs in his last three games, playing a large role in helping Mangini save his job. Maybe his attitude in Cleveland wasn't salvageable…maybe it was and the notoriously polarizing Mangini failed to bring him back into the fold. Undoubtedly Cowher was atop the "most wanted" list. But I recall numerous posts with Cowher, Shanahan, and Holmgren as the objects of the fans' desires, in that order. There was an uproar at the report that Holmgren refused to speak with the Bills even though it was reported that the Bills would meet his price. I've rarely been one to take pleasure in the misfortunes of others. Nor am I the kind of person who leaps to conclusions. My posts tend towards the sober, the positive and the optimistic. But we all judge/evaluate/grade players, coaches, GMs, etc based on very small sample sizes. For instance, many posters here have expressed their disappointment in Nix, Spiller, Troup, Carrington, etc. The Gailey hiring was heavily criticized. Last January, I posted numerous times about how as Holmgren gained more power in Seattle that his ability to manage personnel came under increasing scrutiny. If you ask people in Seattle, they would tell you he was a great coach and a poor (de facto) General Manager. My post (as was my Shanahan and my Todd Haley/3 offensive coordinators in 3 years posts) is mostly directed at those fans who criticize everyone the Bills hire/draft and criticize them for all the players/coaches/etc that they didn't hire/draft. If Gailey erred in giving Trent Edwards another chance, is it not fair game to criticize Holmgren for retaining Eric Mangini and signing Jake Delhomme?Aren't the two above moves further proof (on top of his GM tenure in Seattle) that Holmgren is quite possibly a bad fit as an administrator? Anyways, it seemed like a good topic after the relentless onslaught of threads re-hashing the upcoming draft prospects. As people already answered, not really. Mangini's Browns finished strong the year before, AND as Holmgren the coach knows, a coach deserves more than one season to turn around a team. Thus, he gave Mangini another year. I don't think he picked up Delhomme to lead the Browns franchise out of the doldrums either. It was a veteran presence on a roster he most likely knew he was going to turn over at some point. There isn't a person in the world that blames him for getting rid of Harrison. Kind of like Gailey. Anyone down on him for starting Edwards is nuts. They knew this team sucked, and was clearly a year of review. I credit Gailey for trying to teach the QB how to play, and when he failed, pulled the plug. Kudos for having the guts to get rid of him after he failed. While we liked what Gailey did, I'm not really sure a George Edwards defense and an offensive coordinator who is a puppet should be free from criticism. While it was strangely a fun year, while we sucked again, the Bills made some mighty dumb decisions along the way. In fact, it can be easily argued that they still made a lot more than the Browns or Redskins. They all need another year to START to criticize what they may or may not be doing. Yeah it's even dumber than the most recent topic you started (the one so dumb that it got only one response): http://forums.twobil..._1#entry2091639 "Even though no real Pittsburgher has called any one of their three sports teams by those colors. I guess Black and Gold is frowned upon now. Just sayin. I hate the Steelers. Please someone stop the Steeler luck. That's all I got. I needed to vent." True, but I really wasn't being serious. I'm from Pittsburgh, my whole family loves the Steelers, and I was sick of hearing about them 24/7. Wasn't really looking for a tit to suck on, or acceptance from the community. I just had some Steeler bandwagon overload.
JohnC Posted February 14, 2011 Posted February 14, 2011 I've rarely been one to take pleasure in the misfortunes of others. Nor am I the kind of person who leaps to conclusions. My posts tend towards the sober, the positive and the optimistic. But we all judge/evaluate/grade players, coaches, GMs, etc based on very small sample sizes. For instance, many posters here have expressed their disappointment in Nix, Spiller, Troup, Carrington, etc. The Gailey hiring was heavily criticized. There is never going to be an occasion when you are going to get unanimity on any topic or personnel move. That is the nature of the business. You are right that there was much criticism of the Gailey hiring, mostly because it was an uninspiring hire. That was my initial reaction to Nix's hire. But that doesn't mean that it was a bad hire. Impressions shouldn't be the basis of one's judgment. Only time will tell whether it was a good hire. After observing him for a full year, so far, I like how he has handled the job. He has established an environment of accountability. If a player doesn't perform he is not afraid to make a change. Edwards did not progress so he was cut. Parish played well, so he was given major playing time. Maybin was lost in a fog so he rarely played. Spiller struggled, so he got less playing time. Troup and Carrington didn't immediately earn the right to play, but as the season advanced they contributed more. That is how it should be done. You earn your playing time. Both Shanahan and Gailey are entering a situation where out of necessity there are going to be wholesale changes. Not all of their personnel decisions are going to work out well. That is inevitable when there are so many personnel decisions. Where both Shanahan and Gailey are similar in approach is that they are not afraid to admit mistakes and take corrective actions. As I stated in my initial post on this topic it is going to take a few years to make a fair assessment on how MS or CG are doing. That is the reasonable approach to take. Instant analysis is just as often wrong as it is right. Anyways, it seemed like a good topic after the relentless onslaught of threads re-hashing the upcoming draft prospects. I have no quarrel with your topic. My issue was how it was framed. With respect to the redundancy of the draft topics--be prepared for the avalanche. It's simply that time of year. In fact, because of the re-opening of the CBA and the resulting delay of free agency and trades there will be even more attention paid to the draft.
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