FightClub Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Okay, so yes I know that Von Miller is a 3-4 OLB according to what he has played in college. Apparently it was also proved (at least according to all I read) that he can also play 4-3 OLB well. So, now my question is this...if someone can play 4-3 OLB, what type of relationship does that have to 3-4 INSIDE LB (ILB)? It seems like the 3-4 ILB has to cover people more (we saw Poz struggle mightily with this) and it seems like that's more of what a 4-3 OLB does as well. What I am wondering, as you might be able to tell, is if we should draft Von Miller at #3. Initially, I was dead set against this (one of the "he's another Maybin" crowd) but since the Senior Bowl I have been questioning my assumptions. If the Bills really are going to play this hybrid defense - some 3-4, some 4-3 - wouldn't it make sense to draft someone who plays both (I know, Dareus probably can too, but this thread is specific to V. Miller)? Watching Matthews play for GB last night, I know he was also drafted as a 3-4 OLB which fits their defense, but when I watch him, it seems like he is just playing linebacker period. Sometimes in a pass rush role as would be typical, but sometimes in coverage, sometimes seeming to start in an ILB position...hell, he was even a middle of the field spy on Big Ben for lots of plays yesterday. So, does it make sense to get a player like that, that the Bills could play all over the field (3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, but even stay on the field and play 4-3 OLB when we go that way)?
1B4IDie Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) Okay, so yes I know that Von Miller is a 3-4 OLB according to what he has played in college. Apparently it was also proved (at least according to all I read) that he can also play 4-3 OLB well. So, now my question is this...if someone can play 4-3 OLB, what type of relationship does that have to 3-4 INSIDE LB (ILB)? It seems like the 3-4 ILB has to cover people more (we saw Poz struggle mightily with this) and it seems like that's more of what a 4-3 OLB does as well. What I am wondering, as you might be able to tell, is if we should draft Von Miller at #3. Initially, I was dead set against this (one of the "he's another Maybin" crowd) but since the Senior Bowl I have been questioning my assumptions. If the Bills really are going to play this hybrid defense - some 3-4, some 4-3 - wouldn't it make sense to draft someone who plays both (I know, Dareus probably can too, but this thread is specific to V. Miller)? Watching Matthews play for GB last night, I know he was also drafted as a 3-4 OLB which fits their defense, but when I watch him, it seems like he is just playing linebacker period. Sometimes in a pass rush role as would be typical, but sometimes in coverage, sometimes seeming to start in an ILB position...hell, he was even a middle of the field spy on Big Ben for lots of plays yesterday. So, does it make sense to get a player like that, that the Bills could play all over the field (3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, but even stay on the field and play 4-3 OLB when we go that way)? This is a super long article that goes into all different types of defense: Note 1.) The 4-3, 3-4 Fronts is discussed separately from the 3-4, 4-3 LBs. 2.) The "Hybrid" is discussed, 3.) When you see some posters talk about how special Bruce Smith was in a 3-4 and sometimes people seem to think, "whatever Bills fanboy, Reggie White was dominant too." There is a section that talks specifically about how special Bruce Smith was and it isn't a Bills fanboy. http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php Actually wikipedia has a good description of the names you see people throw around SAM MIKE WIll. SAM MIKE WILL (JACK\ROGER\RUSH) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_(American_football) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker Von Miller is a good football player its just more difficult to find a 300 pounder with the agility, athleticism, motor, and football IQ of Marcell Dareus. Miller can probably play MIKE and WILL closer to his current body. If he gets over 250 he'll have a better shot at being a Rushbacker in the NFL (I'd prefer 260 but thats another story), an NFL O-lineman can curl 237. He really needs some more strength to battle NFL Tackles all game long. SAM is probably not a realistic position for Miller, but that doesn't mean he is not a good talent. Edited February 7, 2011 by Why So Serious?
Ramius Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Okay, so yes I know that Von Miller is a 3-4 OLB according to what he has played in college. Apparently it was also proved (at least according to all I read) that he can also play 4-3 OLB well. So, now my question is this...if someone can play 4-3 OLB, what type of relationship does that have to 3-4 INSIDE LB (ILB)? It seems like the 3-4 ILB has to cover people more (we saw Poz struggle mightily with this) and it seems like that's more of what a 4-3 OLB does as well. What I am wondering, as you might be able to tell, is if we should draft Von Miller at #3. Initially, I was dead set against this (one of the "he's another Maybin" crowd) but since the Senior Bowl I have been questioning my assumptions. If the Bills really are going to play this hybrid defense - some 3-4, some 4-3 - wouldn't it make sense to draft someone who plays both (I know, Dareus probably can too, but this thread is specific to V. Miller)? Watching Matthews play for GB last night, I know he was also drafted as a 3-4 OLB which fits their defense, but when I watch him, it seems like he is just playing linebacker period. Sometimes in a pass rush role as would be typical, but sometimes in coverage, sometimes seeming to start in an ILB position...hell, he was even a middle of the field spy on Big Ben for lots of plays yesterday. So, does it make sense to get a player like that, that the Bills could play all over the field (3-4 OLB, 3-4 ILB, but even stay on the field and play 4-3 OLB when we go that way)? Can you please elaborate on why "he's another Maybin"? This is a super long article that goes into all different types of defense: Note 1.) The 4-3, 3-4 Fronts is discussed separately from the 3-4, 4-3 LBs. 2.) The "Hybrid" is discussed, 3.) When you see some posters talk about how special Bruce Smith was in a 3-4 and sometimes people seem to think, "whatever Bills fanboy, Reggie White was dominant too." There is a section that talks specifically about how special Bruce Smith was and it isn't a Bills fanboy. http://subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.php Actually wikipedia has a good description of the names you see people throw around SAM MIKE WIll. SAM MIKE WILL (JACK\ROGER\RUSH) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formation_(American_football) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker Von Miller is a good football player its just more difficult to find a 300 pounder with the agility, athleticism, motor, and football IQ of Marcell Dareus. Miller can probably play MIKE and WILL closer to his current body. If he gets over 250 he'll have a better shot at being a Rushbacker in the NFL (I'd prefer 260 but thats another story), an NFL O-lineman can curl 237. He really needs some more strength to battle NFL Tackles all game long. SAM is probably not a realistic position for Miller, but that doesn't mean he is not a good talent. Sam, Mike, and Will are terms used by people who want to sound like they know a lot more about football than they actually do.
EldaBillsFan Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 i wouldnt be mad at drafting Von Miller, but i'd rather just trade and pick and get two or three more picks....
Rockinon Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 I would be very happy with Von Miller at #3 because he has such a tremendous track record. And he has looked very good against very big left tackles. He covers well, has the ability to close fast on QBs and RBs and he is very difficult to block. Unlike Maybin, he has multiple pass rush moves and can even drop into coverage, duties that are very important for an OLB. However, on this team as it currently stands, he is likely going to struggle. We have some very good talent at the Nose Tackle position but we have some mediocre talent at DE. Without a premium product at that position, Von Miller will be a wasted pick. The Bills need to stock up on all LB positions to run a 3-4 effectively. That's why I'd like to see Miller at the #3, a Top 5 3-4 DE in round 2 and another LB in the latter rounds probably ILB. As far as all of this talk about 4-3 and hybrid, I seriously think that the people managing this team are trying to get away from that. They want a 3-4 defense and are going to draft for that.
1B4IDie Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) I would be very happy with Von Miller at #3 because he has such a tremendous track record. And he has looked very good against very big left tackles. He covers well, has the ability to close fast on QBs and RBs and he is very difficult to block. Unlike Maybin, he has multiple pass rush moves and can even drop into coverage, duties that are very important for an OLB. However, on this team as it currently stands, he is likely going to struggle. We have some very good talent at the Nose Tackle position but we have some mediocre talent at DE. Without a premium product at that position, Von Miller will be a wasted pick. The Bills need to stock up on all LB positions to run a 3-4 effectively. That's why I'd like to see Miller at the #3, a Top 5 3-4 DE in round 2 and another LB in the latter rounds probably ILB. As far as all of this talk about 4-3 and hybrid, I seriously think that the people managing this team are trying to get away from that. They want a 3-4 defense and are going to draft for that. He actually doesn't cover well right now and didn't have to in college very often but he can get coached up. On passing downs he was running real fast towards the QB not covering very often. I know you know this link: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1620879 Pass defense: Could excel in this part of the game because of his fluidity and quickness, but is still raw in coverage. Mirrors running backs and tight ends off the line into the flat and downfield. Athletic enough to drop deep, keeps one eye on the running back and the other on the quarterback. Is not aware of receivers behind him. Needs to get his hands up to clog passing lanes more consistently when unable to reach the passer. Must improve his hands for the interception. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/27009/von-miller "May have some restrictions matching up in man coverage . . ." Has the quickness, agility and smooth athleticism to cover tight ends in man coverage but needs experience in this area Read more: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-06/scouting-report-von-miller-olb-texas-am#ixzz1DIW7j5hz Plus he has stone hands, even Mayock commented on that at Senior Bowl week, so you might not want him in coverage. Edited February 7, 2011 by Why So Serious?
Ramius Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 He actually doesn't cover well right now and didn't have to in college very often but he can get coached up. On passing downs he was running real fast towards the QB not covering very often. I know you know this link: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1620879 Pass defense: Could excel in this part of the game because of his fluidity and quickness, but is still raw in coverage. Mirrors running backs and tight ends off the line into the flat and downfield. Athletic enough to drop deep, keeps one eye on the running back and the other on the quarterback. Is not aware of receivers behind him. Needs to get his hands up to clog passing lanes more consistently when unable to reach the passer. Must improve his hands for the interception. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/27009/von-miller "May have some restrictions matching up in man coverage . . ." Has the quickness, agility and smooth athleticism to cover tight ends in man coverage but needs experience in this area Read more: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-06/scouting-report-von-miller-olb-texas-am#ixzz1DIW7j5hz Plus he has stone hands, even Mayock commented on that at Senior Bowl week, so you might not want him in coverage. A LB who can't catch is the least of your worries. Can he stay with the TE and knock the ball down in coverage? Thats what you want.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 hmmm, Why So, Rockinon, and Ramius... I feel like we just all did this. Maybe Im hungover from last night still...
Ramius Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) hmmm, Why So, Rockinon, and Ramius... I feel like we just all did this. Maybe Im hungover from last night still... It sure as hell beats arguing over who we should have drafted the last 5-10 years. At least this has relevance. (And i'll do my best to keep this one above the level of the other thread) Edited February 7, 2011 by Ramius
Rockinon Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 He actually doesn't cover well right now and didn't have to in college very often but he can get coached up. On passing downs he was running real fast towards the QB not covering very often. I know you know this link: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1620879 Pass defense: Could excel in this part of the game because of his fluidity and quickness, but is still raw in coverage. Mirrors running backs and tight ends off the line into the flat and downfield. Athletic enough to drop deep, keeps one eye on the running back and the other on the quarterback. Is not aware of receivers behind him. Needs to get his hands up to clog passing lanes more consistently when unable to reach the passer. Must improve his hands for the interception. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/player/_/id/27009/von-miller "May have some restrictions matching up in man coverage . . ." Has the quickness, agility and smooth athleticism to cover tight ends in man coverage but needs experience in this area Read more: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-06/scouting-report-von-miller-olb-texas-am#ixzz1DIW7j5hz Plus he has stone hands, even Mayock commented on that at Senior Bowl week, so you might not want him in coverage. He's a linebacker not a CB. He isn't going to be asked to cover WRs often but he will be responsible for cover TEs and RBs. That's what CBs are for.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) It sure as hell beats arguing over who we should have drafted the last 5-10 years. At least this has relevance. (And i'll do my best to keep this one above the level of the other thread) Agreed on all accounts! And even the last thread was better than the "woulda/shoulda/coulda" threads. Theres a lot of good info in that thread on both sides. Edited February 7, 2011 by DrDankenstein
BuffaloRebound Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Kind of warming to Miller. Sounds like he has a higher floor than most of the guys we could take at #3. Wouldn't have a problem with Peterson or Green either. Guys like Bowers, Fairley, and Dareus might have higher upsides and be more a position of need, but with our recent draft history, I'd be happy taking the guy with the lowest bust potential.
Rockinon Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Agreed on all accounts! And even the last thread was better than the "woulda/shoulda/coulda" threads. Theres a lot of good info in that thread on both sides. I'm glad you can see that there are varying opinions but you are right. You can beat a subject to death. I thought the OP had a reasonable question though when asking about 3-4 and 4-3 alignments.
Johnny Hammersticks Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Kind of warming to Miller. Sounds like he has a higher floor than most of the guys we could take at #3. Wouldn't have a problem with Peterson or Green either. Guys like Bowers, Fairley, and Dareus might have higher upsides and be more a position of need, but with our recent draft history, I'd be happy taking the guy with the lowest bust potential. So...what's your formula for determining the players with the "lowest bust potential?" In my opinion, a player like Miller has a higher potential for being a "bust" than players like Fairley and Dareus (notice I left out Bowers) because Miller will be asked to play a different position. Fairley and Bowers have already proven that they could play any position on the defensive line....short of DE in the 4-3 of course.
Rockinon Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Kind of warming to Miller. Sounds like he has a higher floor than most of the guys we could take at #3. Wouldn't have a problem with Peterson or Green either. Guys like Bowers, Fairley, and Dareus might have higher upsides and be more a position of need, but with our recent draft history, I'd be happy taking the guy with the lowest bust potential. Yes but the $64,000,00 question is who is that guy? A lot of varying opinions and while I like Von Miller, I am also not 100% sold either. It is good to learn about other prospects and not get caught up in the hype surrounding a single individual. The 2 picks this high that scare me the most are CB and WR for some reason. Maybe I should be a bit more open minded in that regard. I would really like to see a good 3-4 DE at #3 but so far I just don't see any that have a higher ceiling than Miller at this point. A lot of it has to do with the difficulty of grading a 3-4 DE. Statistics can be deceiving and tape is not easy to find.
BuffaloRebound Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 So...what's your formula for determining the players with the "lowest bust potential?" In my opinion, a player like Miller has a higher potential for being a "bust" than players like Fairley and Dareus (notice I left out Bowers) because Miller will be asked to play a different position. Fairley and Bowers have already proven that they could play any position on the defensive line....short of DE in the 4-3 of course. Guess I'm a little scared that Fairley and Bowers only produced at a high level for 1 year. Dareus hasn't really produced at a high level for a full season. Did a light go on permanently or did they just smell the money? Peterson and Green have been studs basically their entire collegiate career, and Miller has done it multiple seasons. Plus Miller allowed himself to get scrutinized and coached by an NFL staff in the Senior Bowl and stood up to the test. Sure, any guy could bust, but it just seems like Peterson, Green, and Miller are surer bets.
Johnny Hammersticks Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Guess I'm a little scared that Fairley and Bowers only produced at a high level for 1 year. Dareus hasn't really produced at a high level for a full season. Did a light go on permanently or did they just smell the money? Peterson and Green have been studs basically their entire collegiate career, and Miller has done it multiple seasons. Plus Miller allowed himself to get scrutinized and coached by an NFL staff in the Senior Bowl and stood up to the test. Sure, any guy could bust, but it just seems like Peterson, Green, and Miller are surer bets. It's a shame that Bills fans have this instilled skepticism (I call it Post Traumatic Maybin Syndrome) when it comes to drafting players who haven't established a solid "body of work." There are several players in this draft (i.e., Dareus, Fairley, & Quinn) who have the potential to be great NFL players. At the very least Fairley and Dareus, who were both dominant in the SEC, should get the benefit of the doubt...IMO. Another thing to remember about these guys from top NCAA football schools....they often are buried in the depth chart until their junior or senior year. It's not that they couldn't have put up similar numbers earlier in their career, it just that they weren't given the playing time.
DrDawkinstein Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 It's a shame that Bills fans have this instilled skepticism (I call it Post Traumatic Maybin Syndrome) when it comes to drafting players who haven't established a solid "body of work." There are several players in this draft (i.e., Dareus, Fairley, & Quinn) who have the potential to be great NFL players. At the very least Fairley and Dareus, who were both dominant in the SEC, should get the benefit of the doubt...IMO. Another thing to remember about these guys from top NCAA football schools....they often are buried in the depth chart until their junior or senior year. It's not that they couldn't have put up similar numbers earlier in their career, it just that they weren't given the playing time. Yes! and Yes! to the bolded points. And Dareus, while not a "starter" last year, still made a bunch of plays including a big INT in Alabama's National Championship game. IMO, by dominating in the SEC, they've already shown the ability to project into the NFL more so than players from other conferences.
Rockinon Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 It's a shame that Bills fans have this instilled skepticism (I call it Post Traumatic Maybin Syndrome) when it comes to drafting players who haven't established a solid "body of work." There are several players in this draft (i.e., Dareus, Fairley, & Quinn) who have the potential to be great NFL players. At the very least Fairley and Dareus, who were both dominant in the SEC, should get the benefit of the doubt...IMO. Another thing to remember about these guys from top NCAA football schools....they often are buried in the depth chart until their junior or senior year. It's not that they couldn't have put up similar numbers earlier in their career, it just that they weren't given the playing time. I know! But can you blame us.
BuffaloRebound Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 It's a shame that Bills fans have this instilled skepticism (I call it Post Traumatic Maybin Syndrome) when it comes to drafting players who haven't established a solid "body of work." There are several players in this draft (i.e., Dareus, Fairley, & Quinn) who have the potential to be great NFL players. At the very least Fairley and Dareus, who were both dominant in the SEC, should get the benefit of the doubt...IMO. Another thing to remember about these guys from top NCAA football schools....they often are buried in the depth chart until their junior or senior year. It's not that they couldn't have put up similar numbers earlier in their career, it just that they weren't given the playing time. It didn't stop Green and Peterson from dominating early on in their careers. And Texas A&M and the Big 12 is pretty good competition too. All these guys can bust, but when there is that much money involved at the top of the draft, I think track-record is more important than potential.
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