Best 3-4 Defensive Ends

[greenmohawk]

NFL gm's used to penalize juniors who came out early by not taking them til later rounds bc/ they weren't ready for NFL play. Don't take these guys early, this is not the NBA. Take guys who are ready to play. .

[Rockinon]

Time out:

Why is it "giving up" on a recent draftee, if new talent is drafted? We don't exactly have quality depth here.

Why should drafting a player one hopes will be good in a late round one year, preclude drafting a higher prospect next year until/unless one has ESTABLISHED QUALITY starters and ESTABLISHED QUALITY depth at a position?

 

IMO, that's a big part of what's wrong with the Bills:"OK we got one, we need to sit down and give him a chance to develop" instead of trying to get better at any position where we lack proven quality starters and backups.

 

Now: do we need a LB more than a DE? Most of TBD would apparently agree. But if the top talent this year is at DE, we certainly don't have anyone who has proven himself a durable impact playmaker at that position - just an intriguing rookie who saw the field a little bit at the end, and a pro-bowl NT that people seem to think could get plugged in at the adjacent position like moving a Lego set around.

I tend to agree somewhat with most of this. The thing is 3-4 DE is very very rarely a dominant force in the sack department. However they can be very good at collapsing the pocket or forcing running backs to the edge so LBs and CBs can finish him off. Often they also can rack up tackles for a loss. I think this is very much a position of need on this team. I can't tell you how many times I watched our LBs get stuck in traffic while trying to make a play. Good 3-4 defensive ends is how you address that problem.

 

I do however like Von Miller 3rd overall because of his impact ability. 27.4 sacks and 34.5 TFL over 2 seasons is pretty damned impressive. I will admit though that I am still researching other prospects. Hence the original post in this thread. I think a 3-4 DE is what could be the 3rd overall pick as well but that is where everyone's opinions are varied significantly. Many want a DT instead of a DE which is kind of a dangerous because they would have to learn that position at the NFL level. There do seem to be a lot of big DEs as well that can come in and contribute but I want a dominant force at #3. Who has a better production record than Von Miller? I realize that the 3-4 Defensive End cannot be graded the same way that a 3-4 OLB is graded and that's what makes this so difficult.

[OldTimer1960]

What about OLB?

 

 

Drake is a DT that weighs 285lbs which would mean he would have to learn the 3-4 DE position but his weight is about right. He does look pretty good in that video. Here is a bio according to LSUsports.net:

 

 

At about 6' 1/2", Nevis is conisidered pretty short for a 3-4 DE. I am not saying that he might not be able

to play it well, just that he would be considered quite undersized (in terms of height).

[Rockinon]

First of all, many teams like to play their defensive linemen in waves. Defensive linemen wear down more quickly than other players because of their size and the fact that they are pursuing and chasing their offensive counterparts. It's not uncommon for O-linemen to play every snap during a game. It's quite uncommon for a D-lineman to do the same.

 

Platooning D-linemen is a common practice and the Bills are thin on the D-line.

 

Secondly, Chris Brown recently wrote (I think it was a Fan Friday installment) that he had talked to the coaching staff about moving Kyle Williams to defensive end and the feedback that he got was that the Bills really like him better on the inside where he can be more consistently disruptive. So you're move of Kyle Williams to defensive end is most likely not gonna happen. Stroud may not be back and Dwan Edwards is at that age where concern for his performance and durability are part of the package. The Bills are thin at defensive end.

 

Thirdly, as Hopeful pointed out, adding talent at a position does not mean that the team is "giving up" on their incumbent players at that position. It could be as simple as the team wanting to add talent and depth and get younger at that position.

 

 

Finally, as Nix has said numerous times, he's not afraid of "stacking talent" at certain positions. In other words, he is not opposed to drafting the best player available regardless of need.

 

Yes, linebacker is a huge need for the Bills. But in most people's eyes their abomination of a run defense and inability to push the pocket and pressure the quarterback had a lot to do with the play on the front line.

 

Excellent post.

 

My analogy is that a good 3-4 DE would make Von Miller an even better selection. Without that DE Von Miller is going to struggle at the next level.

[3rdand12]

One of the reasons i like dareus is he can play D end and Dtackle and well too. With Kyle and Dareus able to be moved around and succeed it just seems the right way to go for now.

Agree 100% that Alex and Torell are here long term. Edwards ( yes ) Stroud? Kelsay??

Also its sure sound like LBs we be Buddy's focus but there are quite a few available.

Awesome post everyone thanks for the detailed info!

[1B4IDie]

One of the reasons i like dareus is he can play D end and Dtackle and well too. With Kyle and Dareus able to be moved around and succeed it just seems the right way to go for now.

Agree 100% that Alex and Torell are here long term. Edwards ( yes ) Stroud? Kelsay??

Also its sure sound like LBs we be Buddy's focus but there are quite a few available.

Awesome post everyone thanks for the detailed info!

That is the key with Dareaus he is versatile like Kyle.

If we continue to play a hybrid 3-4, you have two guys that can play multiple positions and play them well. Plus watching Dareaus play, the odds of a bust are very low. The guy will be contributing from day one.

[BobChalmers]

Time out:

Why is it "giving up" on a recent draftee, if new talent is drafted? We don't exactly have quality depth here.

Why should drafting a player one hopes will be good in a late round one year, preclude drafting a higher prospect next year until/unless one has ESTABLISHED QUALITY starters and ESTABLISHED QUALITY depth at a position?

 

Sure - but that's definitely not what we're talking about here.

 

NT Troupe - 2nd round pick last year

DE Carrington - 3rd round pick last year

 

I hope you aren't calling those "late round picks".

 

You only get one first round pick a year - no way an NFL team can succeed thinking 2's and 3's are late rounders.

 

When you make a 2nd or 3rd round pick, you have to believe you're getting a starter, not depth - otherwise, you couldn't possibly field a team of 22+ starters that were any good - which come to think of it...

 

You can't keep using high picks on the same position and not expect the rest of the team to be undertalented. That's why the Bills shouldn't be thinking DL again so soon.

 

As for playing DL's in waves - mostly that's 4-3 teams - because their DL's are expected to do a lot more running. 3-4 DE's are not containing the whole edge of the defense - they're containing the OL - often lined up inside the OT's. You need really good OLB's on the edge for pass rushing and outside runs - the fact we were using a converted DE and some low-priced free agents at those two spots is THE reason our run defense was such a special embarrassment this year.

 

 

As for what Nix is thinking, my point is - whether anyone here isn't convinced that Troupe and Carrington are the right guys and is already looking for someone else at their spots - Nix clearly thought they were future starters or he wouldn't have taken them that high, and I doubt he's ready to change his mind about that after just their rookie seasons.

Edited February 5, 2011 by BobChalmers

[3rdand12]

Those guys should be starters this year. I guess my point is we are not going to get into solid 3-4 for awhile. Heck yes i want linbackers big angry ones who are smart too. Right after i get Dareus : )

[Rockinon]

Sure - but that's definitely not what we're talking about here.

 

NT Troupe - 2nd round pick last year

DE Carrington - 3rd round pick last year

 

I hope you aren't calling those "late round picks".

 

You only get one first round pick a year - no way an NFL team can succeed thinking 2's and 3's are late rounders.

 

When you make a 2nd or 3rd round pick, you have to believe you're getting a starter, not depth - otherwise, you couldn't possibly field a team of 22+ starters that were any good - which come to think of it...

 

You can't keep using high picks on the same position and not expect the rest of the team to be undertalented. That's why the Bills shouldn't be thinking DL again so soon.

 

As for playing DL's in waves - mostly that's 4-3 teams - because their DL's are expected to do a lot more running. 3-4 DE's are not containing the whole edge of the defense - they're containing the OL - often lined up inside the OT's. You need really good OLB's on the edge for pass rushing and outside runs - the fact we were using a converted DE and some low-priced free agents at those two spots is THE reason our run defense was such a special embarrassment this year.

 

 

As for what Nix is thinking, my point is - whether anyone here isn't convinced that Troupe and Carrington are the right guys and is already looking for someone else at their spots - Nix clearly thought they were future starters or he wouldn't have taken them that high, and I doubt he's ready to change his mind about that after just their rookie seasons.

You make some good points about the differences between 3-4 and 4-3 defenses and also about Nix's line of thinking. I still think that Nix is going to target an early round DE. Remember McCargo and Stroud are 4-3 DTs. While Stroud did a good job of slimming down to prepare himself for his new position, I think he still struggled a bit but still did fairly well considering. McCargo could be the odd man out. The team still needs depth at DE because Dwan Edwards was the only one on the team that knew the position. I think Nix would rather keep Kyle Williams in the NT spot and the only reason he was moved to the outside was because we were weak there last year. My analogy is that DE and OLB are the two positions that will improve our run defense most effectively. And having a great pass rushing OLB helps the pass defense too.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

Could Bowers be the best fit for a 3-4 hybrid type defense? He would have an effective position in both defenses and is drawing comparisons to other 3-4 ends such as Shaun Ellis. He is listed at 275lbs for his senior season, but prior to last season played around 295lbs, prototypical size for a 3-4 end.

[1B4IDie]

Could Bowers be the best fit for a 3-4 hybrid type defense? He would have an effective position in both defenses and is drawing comparisons to other 3-4 ends such as Shaun Ellis. He is listed at 275lbs for his senior season, but prior to last season played around 295lbs, prototypical size for a 3-4 end.

He was that big because he is lazy. He was a bust of a #1 overall recruit until the death of his father lit a fire under him.

On paper Bowers is the best fit for the Bills, IMO. He can rush standinging up in 3-4. He could put a hand down at DE in a 4-3. I don't know about DE in a 3-4 but the point is no matter what front we're in opposing offenses would have to account for him.

 

Problem is he had one arm in the Bust "jacket" going into 2010 and he was able to pull it off but it scares me that the laziness might come out again, on the other hand he is a young man maybe he can put that behind him and be a great football player.

Only time will tell. For me the risk out weighs the potential. I'd stay away.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Why So Serious?

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

He was that big because he is lazy. He was a bust of a #1 overall recruit until the death of his father lit a fire under him.

On paper Bowers is the best fit for the Bills, IMO. He can rush standinging up in 3-4. He could put a hand down at DE in a 4-3. I don't know about DE in a 3-4 but the point is no matter what front we're in opposing offenses would have to account for him.

 

Problem is he had one arm in the Bust "jacket" going into 2010 and he was able to pull it off but it scares me that the laziness might come out again, on the other hand he is a young man maybe he can put that behind him and be a great football player.

Only time will tell. For me the risk out weighs the potential. I'd stay away.

The bust tag was labeled due to a lack of sacks, not so much production. He started 6 games as a true freshman earning freshman all american and started his entire sophomore season, however missed time in 5 games due to a knee injury (further hurting his sack #s). Obviously those sack #s exploded his junior year. I'm starting to lean his way as he can be productive as either a DE in a 3-4 and as a strong side pass rushing DE in nickel or 4-3 situations. I question his ability to play OLB in a 3-4.

[Rockinon]

I'm pretty sure that the coaches like Kyle Williams at the NT spot a lot more than DE and they will target DE and LBs in this draft. There is a lot of speculating over getting a big 3-4 NT but after Kyle William's Pro Bowl appearance and Troupe's signing last year, this is just not in the cards. So, my guess is DE and LB. Who is going to be the pick? Man, there are a lot of guys in this draft that can be chosen from and each have unique skills. The answer is not as simple as some think.

[sllib olaffub]

I like the approach - just DE/OLB 1-2 punch combinations. Actually, I think of drafts in that nature a lot. If you have a problem - like the Bills with their run defense, for instance (or, last year's pass protection) then, in my opinion, you go about solving that problem as effectively as possible. In our case, Picking the top two or three front seven personnel men as high as we can is the best way to go about doing that. Of course, you run into problems when really excellent guys fall at other positions, and you're faced with a player of lesser value at a position of need, and a player of great value at a position of not so great need. I think that is what happened last year with our D-line v.s. O-line, although I'm not altogether sure why we didn't wait to fill up the D-line until this year... well, if the juniors hadn't come out this year it wouldn't have been anywhere near as dominant a group as it has turned out to be.

 

Either way, I expect we'll be lose Stroud, McCargo, and maybe even Poz. We certainly can draft two D-front seven and use them without making last year's picks devalued. So, here's my few options for 1-2 punch (although I do think we stand a good chance of taking a QB in either the 1st or 2nd round, but, I'll play along here):

 

Round 1 Round 2

Fairley, Taylor

Dareus, Taylor

Fairley, Wilson/Shephard

Dareus, Wilson/Shephard

Quinn, Taylor

Trade Down

Jordan, Taylor/Wilson/Shephard

Edited February 13, 2011 by sllib olaffub

[NoSaint]

The bust tag was labeled due to a lack of sacks, not so much production. He started 6 games as a true freshman earning freshman all american and started his entire sophomore season, however missed time in 5 games due to a knee injury (further hurting his sack #s). Obviously those sack #s exploded his junior year. I'm starting to lean his way as he can be productive as either a DE in a 3-4 and as a strong side pass rushing DE in nickel or 4-3 situations. I question his ability to play OLB in a 3-4.

 

If he didn't have issues... Why did he lose 20lbs and rededicate himself before last season?

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

If he didn't have issues... Why did he lose 20lbs and rededicate himself before last season?

I don't understand, I didn't say he didn't become more productive. Just that he wasn't an unproductive player prior to his junior year as some have claimed. Some may have considered him a bust due to the expectations of a #1 overall recruit, but he was still producing in those years unlike Fairley or some of the other highly touted draft prospects. I've also yet to read anything to say that he wasn't dedicated prior to his junior year, just that he dropped weight. Perhaps the weight drop improved his speed/quickness and made him a better player, he's still not small by any measure. There's also this:

 

His play was actually fueled by the death of his mentor, Gaines Adams (cardiac arrest) and his father (seizure) in the span of 12 months.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619548

 

The point of my post was to say that Bowers is a big man, and has played at an even bigger size and been a productive player. He's also lauded for his strength and ability as a run stopper, and has drawn comparisons to other 3-4 ends (Shaun Ellis). Therefore perhaps he could be the best option for the Bills as he could fit into a multiple front type defense as a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

since you asked here are my opinions:

 

Fairely:

I like guys that step on other guys when they are down. The Bills need some much needed nastieness if somehow Fairely falls to #3 its a no brainier. The kid makes plays.

 

 

Dareaus:

I've watched Marcell Dareus in atleast 6 games and every game atleast 1 time a game you're left with "how does a guy that big make a play like that." He has all the tools, he will make an impact, and if we play 3-4\4-3 hybrid he can be very versatile.

 

Cam Jordan:

Kept coming up late 1st round in mocks through out the regular season. Didn't catch a lot of his play, I watched the Cal Stanford game. Looked like a 1 man wrecking crew at the Senior Bowl. Given that Bowers and Quinn both play in the notoriously weak ACC, and I've seen mostly youtube clips of them (Quinn is a youtube monster) I feel more comfortable with Cam Jordan over Bowers or Quinn.

 

JJ Watt:

 

I watched a few Wisconsin games most to watch Gabe Carimi (and instead was really impressed with Moffit instead {who proved me right and impressed everyone in the Senior Bowl})Fast forwarded a lot on the Wisconsin D. Don't have an opinion not comfortable with the guy at this point in time.

 

Cam Heyward:

 

Going into 2010 season he was in many mocks in the Top10 of the draft, early in the season he fell out of the 1st round in a lot of mocks. I DVRed the OSU games just to watch him play. He finished really strong with a dominant Bowl Game. The kid is a beast but inconsistent. He can turn it on and turn it off sometimes. He has great NFL bloodlines. #3 overall probably isn't going to happen. Not when you have Fairely, Dareaus and now Cam Jordan that I would take over him. He will definitely be a good NFL player though.

 

I personally believe the odds of a bust are low with Fairely, Dareaus and Jordan. A little higher with Heyward and way higher with Bowers & Quinn. My attitude with JJ Watt is, "why bother there are better options, right?"

 

LBs:

 

Von Miller:

 

Will be a good Football player, I don't see anything special about him to be worthy of the #3 overall pick. You can find people with a 95% upside as his later in the draft such as Oklohoma's Jeremy Beal, or Sam Acho.

 

Robert Quinn:

 

Youtube MOnster, ACC sucks, suspended for a year, two many red flags for me to feel comfortable at #3 overall

 

Aldon Smith:

 

From what I read he should have went back for his senior year, but I guess you got to get that paper.

 

Akeem Ayers:

 

Seems like a ferocious tackler on youtube, Seems like one of the most full packages in the crop of LBs, he will be a good NFL player, and in the right position with right coaching he might even be great.

 

Ryan Kerrigan:

 

Looks to me like worst case Chris Kelsay best vase Aaron Schobel. Like them I don't know where Kerrigan fits ins a 3-4 definitely not #3 overall worthy.

Well done, though I'm not a big fan of Fairly and think JJ Watt is a little better than you give credit for but not at 3, kinda like Aaron Smith. ACC is a good conference and think many of the NC players will do well in the League. Robert Quinn is too good to pass up would be like getting Merriman when he was healthy.

 

Quinn is my pick but would be very happy with Dareus, OK with Fairely and upset with Bowers.

[NoSaint]

I don't understand, I didn't say he didn't become more productive. Just that he wasn't an unproductive player prior to his junior year as some have claimed. Some may have considered him a bust due to the expectations of a #1 overall recruit, but he was still producing in those years unlike Fairley or some of the other highly touted draft prospects. I've also yet to read anything to say that he wasn't dedicated prior to his junior year, just that he dropped weight. Perhaps the weight drop improved his speed/quickness and made him a better player, he's still not small by any measure. There's also this:

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619548

 

The point of my post was to say that Bowers is a big man, and has played at an even bigger size and been a productive player. He's also lauded for his strength and ability as a run stopper, and has drawn comparisons to other 3-4 ends (Shaun Ellis). Therefore perhaps he could be the best option for the Bills as he could fit into a multiple front type defense as a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

 

 

I guess my point is, as your posts showed, that he needed that extra push to play elite. He played good, not great before getting that kick is my impression. It worries me that he may be ok with good not great.

 

My other concern with your post is at 295 he can play 34 end. At 275 he can play 43 end. That isn't playing both schemes interchangeably.

Edited February 13, 2011 by NoSaint

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Just watched higlight video of Nick Farley combined with highlights from Cam Newton. I want Newton.

That's a sad Statement for Fairely.

[Rockinon]

I don't understand, I didn't say he didn't become more productive. Just that he wasn't an unproductive player prior to his junior year as some have claimed. Some may have considered him a bust due to the expectations of a #1 overall recruit, but he was still producing in those years unlike Fairley or some of the other highly touted draft prospects. I've also yet to read anything to say that he wasn't dedicated prior to his junior year, just that he dropped weight. Perhaps the weight drop improved his speed/quickness and made him a better player, he's still not small by any measure. There's also this:

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1619548

 

The point of my post was to say that Bowers is a big man, and has played at an even bigger size and been a productive player. He's also lauded for his strength and ability as a run stopper, and has drawn comparisons to other 3-4 ends (Shaun Ellis). Therefore perhaps he could be the best option for the Bills as he could fit into a multiple front type defense as a 3-4 end and a 4-3 end.

I think you are making some valid points. There are a couple of different ways to go as far as defensive end goes. Put a big disruptive force right next to Kyle Williams and let them wreak havoc on opposing offensive lines or get a defensive end that is quicker and can get after the ball carrier. Both make sense and each draft prospect has traits that fit one or the other. Tough decision. Maybe we'll get lucky and one of the teams in front us goes WR, CB. I'd like to see some depth at DE and LB either way.