ieatcrayonz Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 and last time I checked, Newton just won the National Championship and the Heisman and he won the JUCO National Chanpionship the year before. Maybe that will translate to the NFL, maybe not. But you cannot say he has never won a big game. I'm pretty sure Mr. Limbaw compared Newton to Smith and says Blaine Gabbert never won a big game. In fact, no one with the name Blaine has ever won a big game.
Maddog69 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Newton won the championship by himself? I'm impressed. AND the JUCO championship singlehandedly? Holy crp dude. I'm impressed. Took on a whole defense on his own? 1 against 11? What does that mean? NOTHING. Look at the past QB's that played for national championships. And look what they've done. Tim Tebow? John Wilson Parker? Matt Leinart? Vince Young? Matt Flynn? Jamarcus Russell? Craig Krenzel? Ken Dorsey? Jason White? Chris Weinke? Pretty impressive list of QBs there my friend. BTW. Quick question: How many national championships has Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Matt Schaub, Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers won in their college careers...COMBINED? So don't bring up meaningless facts as an argument. It was in response to Darin who said that none of these QBs won a Big game. No player ever wins a game by himself, it is a team sport. That's obvious.
DreReed83 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 It was in response to Darin who said that none of these QBs won a Big game. No player ever wins a game by himself, it is a team sport. That's obvious. Touché
Alaska Darin Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 So many things wrong with your post: 1.) How do you know there are no elite QBs in this draft? Because elite QBs don't last to number 3 in the NFL draft in this era. 2.) You also need a real QB in this league to win consistently. Which we probably already have with Fitzpatrick. You also don't win consistently in the NFL when your defense can't tackle a high school player. ANY QB that gets drafted this season is going to be 3 years behind what we already have. 3.) How do you know that every QB in this draft will be the next Akili Smith? Maybe one of them can be the next Jim Kelly, Manning, Elway, etc. I don't. But the odds are far more likely that we'll draft a bust rather than a HoFer. The data on QBs is unarguable. Fitzpatrick is more than good enough to get this team to the playoffs if the problems at OT/D Front 7 get addressed. A rookie QB is meaningless at this juncture, especially if it's Gabbert (done nothing) or Newton (one year wonder with serious character questions). Quick, name the last SEC QB not named Manning to do anything in the NFL. Cutler? Outside of that guy, who still has questions about him, there is a line of complete failures - which Newton is very likely going to be added to. 4.) How do you know that whatever defensive player we draft will not be the next Erik Flowers, Aaron Maybin or John McCargo. I don't, which is why I'd like to see the BILLS gather as many picks as possible. That all but guarantees they'll have a few hits. Call me crazy but I don't see Buddy Nix picking Flowers, Maybin, or McCargo. The Spiller pick wasn't made with this season in mind, nor should it have been. The BILLS were irrevocably broken and the process for rebuilding was with a longer term outlook. Finally. The simple answer is; You have no idea. So if you'd like to express an opinion, great. But spare me the attitude. Who the !@#$ are you? Don't like attitude? Don't respond, "Maddog". Thanks. You're welcome? and last time I checked, Newton just won the National Championship and the Heisman and he won the JUCO National Chanpionship the year before. Maybe that will translate to the NFL, maybe not. But you cannot say he has never won a big game. I was referring to Gabbert.
JohnC Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 No I understand YOUR point which clearly makes no sense but you clearly don't understand mine. If a QB is more NFL ready right out of college, how would he have less long term potential? If a college QB is more NFL ready, that means he has a higher upside than someone who isn't. Just because they are NFL ready doesn't mean they've peaked as in improving as a QB. So you're not making any sense. A QB who is described as "NFL ready" just means he's capable of making the transition to the NFL level easier than someone who's not. Pretty self explanatory if you ask me. So you'd take the athletic QB who can throw the ball 80 yds down the field over someone with a decent arm, can read defenses and has a high football IQ? Nice to meet you Mr. Al Davis. You simply make no sense with your logic. Many people would agree with you that Ponder is probably better prepared to more quickly adjust to the pro game than Gabbert or Newton. Go back and peruse through every mock draft or scouting report and analysis you can find. Not one will have Ponder ahead of the two lesser prepared qbs. Why? They have more upside and tools. If you can't understand such common sense reasoning then you never will. I don't want to get in a tit for tat with a bratty poster. But your childishly petulant responses are uncalled for. You have a maturity issue you need to work on.
Maddog69 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Because elite QBs don't last to number 3 in the NFL draft in this era. Which we probably already have with Fitzpatrick. You also don't win consistently in the NFL when your defense can't tackle a high school player. ANY QB that gets drafted this season is going to be 3 years behind what we already have. I don't. But the odds are far more likely that we'll draft a bust rather than a HoFer. The data on QBs is unarguable. Fitzpatrick is more than good enough to get this team to the playoffs if the problems at OT/D Front 7 get addressed. A rookie QB is meaningless at this juncture, especially if it's Gabbert (done nothing) or Newton (one year wonder with serious character questions). Quick, name the last SEC QB not named Manning to do anything in the NFL. Cutler? Outside of that guy, who still has questions about him, there is a line of complete failures - which Newton is very likely going to be added to. I don't, which is why I'd like to see the BILLS gather as many picks as possible. That all but guarantees they'll have a few hits. Call me crazy but I don't see Buddy Nix picking Flowers, Maybin, or McCargo. The Spiller pick wasn't made with this season in mind, nor should it have been. The BILLS were irrevocably broken and the process for rebuilding was with a longer term outlook. Finally. Who the !@#$ are you? Don't like attitude? Don't respond, "Maddog". You're welcome? I was referring to Gabbert. Didn't mean to get into a pi$$ing match with you. I apologize. I respectly disagree with you, though. 1.) Elite QBs do in fact make it to pick 3 or later all the time. (Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Marino, Kelly, Brees, just to ones that came to mind quickly) 2.) You have a much higher opinion of Fitz than I do. He is, in my opinion, not very good. The stats this year and over his career bear that out. He is much better than what we've had, so by comparison he looks great. But he is average or below. With horrible accuracy. We need to find a QB 3.) With regard to whatever QB we draft being 3 yrs behind Fitz. I see your point, put I think you overstate it. On one hand, the reason I want to draft a QB this year is because it will take a year or two before he is ready to really play full time and be near his peak. I want to have that guy on the roster developing this year while we build all of the other key components (OL, dominating D, weapons on O, etc). I don't want to get all of the pieces in place only to realize we don't have a QB. On the other hand, most of the highly drafted QBs are playing much sooner these days, so its possible that by late year 1 or early year 2, the drafted QB will be the starter. 4.) Any draft pick is a risk. There is just was much risk of Cam Newton being a bust as there is for Fairley or whomever else you look at. I am hoping the Bills come out of this draft with their QB of the future. I personally hope that Newton survives all of the upcoming scrutiny and becomes that guy. I have a feeling he could be a special player in the NFL (his character concerns also give me heartburn). But I will be very excited if Nix/Gailey decide Newton or Gabbert are the guy at #3 or if they take Ponder or one of the other guys later in Rd1 or early 2. Anything beyond that is a low risk gamble like we took on Levi Brown. I really wanted them to grab Colt McCoy last year. I just want a young QB to give us some hope. Maybe he'll follow in the footsteps of Jim Kelly and help rebuild our team to prominance or maybe he'll follow in the footsteps of Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe or JP Losman and be a player who we wasted a 1st round pick on that did not live up to expectations. I just don't see why so many people on this board go so far out of there way to say that any QB in this draft sucks and will not be any good. None of us can see the future. Edited February 1, 2011 by Maddog69
TC in St. Louis Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I think Gabbert will end up being a great pro. He was the number one rated Pro-style quarterback coming out of high school (ahead of Andrew Luck). He's big, has a fantastic arm, and is an excellent athlete. I don't think the Bills should take him with the 3rd pick in the draft. But I do hope they end up with him. In fact, I was on the phone with his grandfather the other day, and I told him I'm a Bills fan and I hope they end up with Blaine Gabbert. And my dad's name was Blaine, so I think he would have felt better about that name (he hated it) if Gabbert became a star with the Bills.
Maddog69 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I think Gabbert will end up being a great pro. He was the number one rated Pro-style quarterback coming out of high school (ahead of Andrew Luck). He's big, has a fantastic arm, and is an excellent athlete. I don't think the Bills should take him with the 3rd pick in the draft. But I do hope they end up with him. In fact, I was on the phone with his grandfather the other day, and I told him I'm a Bills fan and I hope they end up with Blaine Gabbert. And my dad's name was Blaine, so I think he would have felt better about that name (he hated it) if Gabbert became a star with the Bills. Nice. I don't know anything at all about Gabbert, so I cannot express an opinion. Curious, why were you on the phone with his grandfather?
stony Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 You simply make no sense with your logic. Many people would agree with you that Ponder is probably better prepared to more quickly adjust to the pro game than Gabbert or Newton. Go back and peruse through every mock draft or scouting report and analysis you can find. Not one will have Ponder ahead of the two lesser prepared qbs. Why? They have more upside and tools. If you can't understand such common sense reasoning then you never will. I don't want to get in a tit for tat with a bratty poster. But your childishly petulant responses are uncalled for. You have a maturity issue you need to work on. Thank you for pointing this out. You're dead on. I said the same thing in another post. Disagreement is one thing, blatant refusal to accept other's opinions and constantly insulting others is quite another.
JohnC Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Thank you for pointing this out. You're dead on. I said the same thing in another post. Disagreement is one thing, blatant refusal to accept other's opinions and constantly insulting others is quite another. I have no problem with people disagreeing with what I say or what others say. It is the insulting responses that are unacceptable. His type of petulant responses lower the standard of behavior for all posters. Coming on strong doesn't mean coming on stupid.
TC in St. Louis Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Nice. I don't know anything at all about Gabbert, so I cannot express an opinion. Curious, why were you on the phone with his grandfather? He drives dealer trades for the place where I sell cars. Martin Gabbert is his name. He's a good guy. I called him because I needed somebody to go to KC to pick up a new black Silverado 2500 Crew Cab Turbo Diesel.
Maddog69 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 He drives dealer trades for the place where I sell cars. Martin Gabbert is his name. He's a good guy. I called him because I needed somebody to go to KC to pick up a new black Silverado 2500 Crew Cab Turbo Diesel. Wow. What a small world. That's funny.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 You need to understand the concept of projection. Projecting a run-first, throw-second QB with one starting season in the SEC, albeit with a national title, is not easy. Does he have a good arm? Yes. Does he makes some good throws? Yes? Can he scramble? Yes. Can he stand in and read a defense? No sure. Is he smart enough to handle to position at the NFL level? Not sure. Can he scramble out of trouble at will in the NFL when his first read isn't open and he doesn't have the patience to read his other options? No way, the linebackers are too fast. The bottomline is, you can't fall in love with a one-year wonder with questionable maturity and a very small sample of high level college games. How many other one year wonders were drafted to high and bombed? Too many to count I would offer. I can't comment on Gabbert. I haven't seen him play but from what I've read, he's played in a pro-style offense (vs. Newton playing in the spread) and has done very well with it from both the mental and physical sides. And he has a larger sample of games played to judge on. The larger the sample, the closer you get to being able to project who he is. The smaller the sample, the more likely you are to over or under-estimate a player when their real abilities might be somewhere between the extremes. I've said it before here and continue to.... I like Parcells criteria for drafting QBs (based on wins, games, played and graduation) as the starting point. Add in Wonderlic scores and you're in better position to make a good pick with a QB. There is a distinct traits with all SB winning QBs who I have been able to locate Wonderlic scores for, with the exception of one guy... none had scores, if I can recall correctly (have it written down somewhere), less than 22 or so, other than Bradshaw. Basically, every SB winner since 1990 has a score that higher or higher. And my point is, although you might get to the playoffs with some supreme physical talent, the stats seem to indicate that winning one requires some higher intelligence. Proof: this year's SB QBs have a 35 (Rodgers) and a 25 (Roethlisberger). Some recent winners, in addition to Roethlisberger, as well Brady 33 P. Manning 28 E. Manning 39 Brees 28 However, Ryan Leaf had a 27, which is why I said that other factors matter, like Parcells criteria. Leaf bucked Parcells criteria becaus ehe didn't finish college or start and win enough games. The problem with the QB in the NFL is that there is such a premium on the position that it leads to over-reaction and poor decision making on the parts of teams. So teams are willing to disregard what non-emotional, quantitative analysis says and gamble and it fails more often than not. Between 2000 and 2010 29 QBs were taken in the NFL. We can call these guys unquestioned busts (1 in 3) through 2007(not enough playing time): McNown Carr Harrington Ramsey Boller Losman Smith Leinart Quinn Some were serviceable but ultimately didn't/haven't win/won titles or are teetering on bust status Pennington Vick Palmer Leftwich Grossman Rivers Campbell Young Cutler Rodgers And these are your title winners Roethlisberger E. Manning If Rodgers wins, that's a SB-winning QB drafted in the first round in 3 of the last 11 drafts. If not, even worse, only 2. So what this long winded post means is... it's a gamble. Big time. And you have to minimize the risk and not reach in the first round because as history has shown most QBs are drafted too highly. Take the best lineman and move on! Vic, Rogers, Rivers are more than serviceable.
KD in CA Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) If tehjre wasa choice i also would go with the more tried and true tested guy like Newton as well. A guy with 13 starts in college is "tried and true tested"? I'll take the more polished passer over the gimmick QB any day of the week. Cam Newton doesn't know how to make reads. Nor is he that much of a polished QB. Sorry, but I'll take Gabbert over Newton any day of the week. They're both raw, but Gabbert has a higher upside than Newton and a shorter distance to get there. To me, not knowing how to read defenses is a big no no, and it's clear that Newton doesn't know how to. He goes with his first read and if its not there, he runs. Doesnt know how to check down. Doesn't know how to run through his 2nd and 3rd options. Just a disaster waiting to happen. It amazes me how many people simply refuse to acknowledge these things. Edited February 1, 2011 by KD in CT
DreReed83 Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Nice. I don't know anything at all about Gabbert, so I cannot express an opinion. Curious, why were you on the phone with his grandfather? Not many people know about Gabbert cuz he came out of nowhere. I'm still not all that sold on him. Wasn't sold on Ponder either until i saw him play and i was more than impressed. I still like Stanzi and Ponder in the 2nd or 3rd round.
JPicc2114 Posted February 2, 2011 Posted February 2, 2011 Not many people know about Gabbert cuz he came out of nowhere. I'm still not all that sold on him. Wasn't sold on Ponder either until i saw him play and i was more than impressed. I still like Stanzi and Ponder in the 2nd or 3rd round. He didn't come out of no where.. he played for a top 15 team the year prior. He threw 3600 yards and 24Tds, w/ 9 Ints. Ran for 200 yards and 3 Tds. He was highly regarded last year, but last year no one was talking about his draft stock since he was a redshirt Soph. They probably assumed he would go out in 2012.
DreReed83 Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 He didn't come out of no where.. he played for a top 15 team the year prior. He threw 3600 yards and 24Tds, w/ 9 Ints. Ran for 200 yards and 3 Tds. He was highly regarded last year, but last year no one was talking about his draft stock since he was a redshirt Soph. They probably assumed he would go out in 2012. So last year, he was considered the top QB in this year's draft class? Sure thing
stony Posted February 3, 2011 Posted February 3, 2011 So last year, he was considered the top QB in this year's draft class? Sure thing Can you please show me where the previous post said this? Or is this another one of your sarcastic, petulant posts?
Alaska Darin Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Didn't mean to get into a pi$$ing match with you. I apologize. I respectly disagree with you, though. 1.) Elite QBs do in fact make it to pick 3 or later all the time. (Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Marino, Kelly, Brees, just to ones that came to mind quickly) I think we're off target here. There were questions about each of those QBs, which is obvious considering the QBs who were picked in front of them. It's the biggest crapshoot in sports. 2.) You have a much higher opinion of Fitz than I do. He is, in my opinion, not very good. The stats this year and over his career bear that out. He is much better than what we've had, so by comparison he looks great. But he is average or below. With horrible accuracy. We need to find a QB. Fitz has never played on an even decent team. I find it difficult to compare apples with apples when there are so many obvious deficiencies in St Louis, Cincinnati, and Buffalo. I don't think I'd say his accuracy is horrible. I'm not sure how many QBs would be super accurate playing behind our offensive line. 3.) With regard to whatever QB we draft being 3 yrs behind Fitz. I see your point, put I think you overstate it. On one hand, the reason I want to draft a QB this year is because it will take a year or two before he is ready to really play full time and be near his peak. I want to have that guy on the roster developing this year while we build all of the other key components (OL, dominating D, weapons on O, etc). I don't want to get all of the pieces in place only to realize we don't have a QB. On the other hand, most of the highly drafted QBs are playing much sooner these days, so its possible that by late year 1 or early year 2, the drafted QB will be the starter. Probably a valid point but I think I'd rather find the key components at the top of the draft than the next Vince Young (which Newton has written all over him). How do we know Levi Brown won't be that guy? 4.) Any draft pick is a risk. There is just was much risk of Cam Newton being a bust as there is for Fairley or whomever else you look at. Possible, but not probably. I think history shows that long term successful players at the college level are more likely to be productive NFL players than the "one year flash" guys. Personally, I'd rather see the BILLS trade down and pick up a couple more picks to increase the likelihood of finding more guys who can actually play in the NFL. I am hoping the Bills come out of this draft with their QB of the future. I personally hope that Newton survives all of the upcoming scrutiny and becomes that guy. I have a feeling he could be a special player in the NFL (his character concerns also give me heartburn). But I will be very excited if Nix/Gailey decide Newton or Gabbert are the guy at #3 or if they take Ponder or one of the other guys later in Rd1 or early 2. Anything beyond that is a low risk gamble like we took on Levi Brown. I really wanted them to grab Colt McCoy last year. I just want a young QB to give us some hope. Maybe he'll follow in the footsteps of Jim Kelly and help rebuild our team to prominance or maybe he'll follow in the footsteps of Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe or JP Losman and be a player who we wasted a 1st round pick on that did not live up to expectations. I just don't see why so many people on this board go so far out of there way to say that any QB in this draft sucks and will not be any good. None of us can see the future. I don't care much about hope and if they pick Cam Newton it'll just be another guy who feels a lot like Maybin at a time when the franchise can least afford another unproductive first rounder.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I think Gabbert will end up being a great pro. He was the number one rated Pro-style quarterback coming out of high school (ahead of Andrew Luck). He's big, has a fantastic arm, and is an excellent athlete. I don't think the Bills should take him with the 3rd pick in the draft. But I do hope they end up with him. In fact, I was on the phone with his (Gabbert's) grandfather the other day, and I told him I'm a Bills fan and I hope they end up with Blaine Gabbert. And my dad's name was Blaine, so I think he would have felt better about that name (he hated it) if Gabbert became a star with the Bills. Great stuff, TC.
Recommended Posts