The Big Cat Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 That said, in the final analysis: won't a bigger, stronger, heavier guy with proper technique win the battle over a smaller, lighter guy with proper technique? Well, duh. But the moment the big guy has a lapse in concentration, his measureables are for ****. That's probably why Carrington (big ole freak that he is) didn't get any PT until halfway through the season. Had the body, didn't have the skills. I would say 99/100 times pure strength is incapable of overcomin proper technique, on both sides of the LOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Well, duh. But the moment the big guy has a lapse in concentration, his measureables are for ****. That's probably why Carrington (big ole freak that he is) didn't get any PT until halfway through the season. Had the body, didn't have the skills. I would say 99/100 times pure strength is incapable of overcomin proper technique, on both sides of the LOS. Very true. Troup had 34 or 35 reps at the combine on the bench, and was considered very strong. He, like most rookie interior linemen, had a difficult time adjusting to the intricacies of the game i.e. technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Warner Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 One of the smart things Levy used to say is that a player improves the most between his first and second year. A lot of college athletes aren't quite where they should be when it comes to core strength, leg strength and, of course, technique. In addition to who we draft we really have a lot of things to look forward to next year if we have the coaching to bring it out. Troupe and Carrington should be much improved, I am very interested to see what Easley does at WR and Battan at LB. Those all look like solid picks if they can stay healthy. I hope we trade down with someone who wants Newton and have some numbers to add to that mix and we may really improve next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 A good NT simply needs to anchor to hold the line of attack. You can have great technique and anchor without being a fat 350lb tub of crap. I swear, i don't know if it's an inferiority complex, but Buffalo fans have this odd obsession with size and always being "too small". Let me know when we start playing one. While we are at it settling for "good" is ok...me...I want a guy that can anchor, hold the line...AND PUSH IT INTO THE BACKFIELD! I want an above average if not great NT. Size is no guarantee but it certainly never hurt. I'll settle for a 305 pounder if he can get the job done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 It wasn't the Bills who told him to slim down. He did it in college to be better conditioned. In his junior year he played as high as 345 and slimmed down to 315. So he dropped 30 pounds and he had an outstanding senior year being able to play 3 downs. Troup will bulk up a bit as he is currently 315 he should be able to add 10 pounds to his frame and not lose his mobility or conditioning which is solid for a 3-4 DT to be 6 foot 3 and 325. Vince Wilfork considered one of if not the best one gap run defenders in the league is 6 foot 2 and 325. Which if Troup added 10 pounds to his frame would be the same weight and only 1 inch taller. Weight is not the be all end all to how good a run defender you are. Kyle Williams plays the run pretty well and is only what 306-308. Jay Ratlif plays NT for the Cowboys and is a multi-time pro-bowler and considered one of the best NT's in the league and he plays at 306. Guys who weight 330 plus get pushed around all the time or have limitations on how many downs they can play so weight is only one factor in how good a player can defend the run. Jay Ratlif, yeah just like kyle williams and we still can't stop the run. Vince Wilfork is way over 325, Teams still lie about their players heights and weights. Remeber Ted Washington the best NT of all time, Parcells said he'd bet good money that he was 380 - 400 Lbs. The point is the Nose needs to be massive and the best NTs in the league are. Ten Lbs on his Troupes frame isn't going to cut it, he would do well to get back up to 345. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Can Dareus can project to OLB or am I thinking of someone else? Dareus is a 306 Lb end for Alabama and is in no way an OLB. Maybe your'e thinking of Bowers who is smaller but can not play OLB either and is way overrated. Robert quinn DE from North Carolina would be the best option for for OLB on a pure ability and production but he was suspended last year, so that could drop him, otherwise he may have been #1 overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 How you employ the weight you have (or fail to use it) makes a huge difference beyond the simple stats. An example is Ryan Denney (not a great player but does show this point). Stat wise he seemed to be the DL player the Bills needed as a rookie. He was tall, the rookie weight was stout enough to hold his own against the run but agile and tapered enough to have registered a bunch of sacks against college competition to get a high draft pick. Most impressive logistically having taken a couple of years to a Morman mission, he was older than most seniors and held the potential to help the Bills quickly. Yet, he proved to not even be a contributor his first year (the conventional wisdom somehow has a first day pick probably starting his first year though in real life this is only true for a small bit above 50% of 1st rounders and even here the bias is toward top 10 picks being first year starters in part because the guys they replace are so bad). In fact he not only did not contribute he was not even active virtually all games his rookie year. Apparently he had trouble bending his knees and retaining leverage when he locked up with blockers and proved to be easily defeatable as a pro as even pedestrian blockers were taught to grab him when you engage, take leverage he gave you because he did not bend his knees and could be straightened up and throw him aside like a ragdoll. It took a year, bu he finally learned to resist his natural tendency to get too high when engaged and learned additional effective moves besides run around the blocker(cause if he engaged he was gonna get beat and if he only was effective when using his athleticism to run around the blocker tackles were simply faster as pros, RBs had learned how to effectively blitz pick-up (a big problem for virtually all rookie RBs), and QBs simply had to step up in the pocket to eliminate Denney as an issue. Carrington is a different type of player as a DE and the new improved Denney actually held his own at DT so recognition of Troupe being different is relevant also. The big relevant thing is Denney while no world beater does show that a player can learn some pretty basic things in one year of play to turn them from a non-factor to at least being a contributor in one year. Both Troup and Carrington have the potential advantage that both in fact were contributors as rookies. They have a pro-bowl meriting DT playing with them all the time or at least when we go 4-3 and the future actually bodes well for the Bills on DL even if they do not get more talent on DL. In fact, particularly since the base D is a 3-4 and arguably we have two adequate LBs at any given moment the #3 would most improve this team by getting the best LB possible (likely by trading down as none of the LBs seems worth a #3) and getting the additional talent needed on the OL as well. Nice point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Sorry - I just don't get the logic of using last year's #2 and #3 draft picks as back-ups. If they aren't starting next year those were bad picks. Now let me get this straight. You're saying that because Eric Moulds was not a starter (in fact not much of a helpful player at all) because he did not start in his second year he was a bad pick? Sure this is one player's story but your declaration declaring any #2 or #3 who does not start is a bad pick does not seem to offer an latitude for reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Jay Ratlif, yeah just like kyle williams and we still can't stop the run. Vince Wilfork is way over 325, Teams still lie about their players heights and weights. Remeber Ted Washington the best NT of all time, Parcells said he'd bet good money that he was 380 - 400 Lbs. The point is the Nose needs to be massive and the best NTs in the league are. Ten Lbs on his Troupes frame isn't going to cut it, he would do well to get back up to 345. Its not that simple and Kevin Williams was not the reason why we could not stop the run......the reason why we strugged is because we could not set our edges which has NOTHING to do with our NT it has to do with our OLB's and DE's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Its not that simple and Kevin Williams was not the reason why we could not stop the run......the reason why we strugged is because we could not set our edges which has NOTHING to do with our NT it has to do with our OLB's and DE's Kevin Williams would do wonders for our run defense. Are you referring to Kyle Williams? And what is up with posters that do not know our players names? Who the hell is B Troupe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) Kevin Williams is not a 3-4 standard five-technique end from all I read. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/1/11/1927873/examining-multiple-defensive-fronts-featuring-kyle-williams Edited January 30, 2011 by johnnyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllDayADay Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Kevin Williams is not a 3-4 standard five-technique end from all I read. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/1/11/1927873/examining-multiple-defensive-fronts-featuring-kyle-williams Kevin? Is that Kyle's cousin? BUt yeah not a 5 technique. I like the way he uses him in the diagrams to penetrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Kevin Williams would do wonders for our run defense. Are you referring to Kyle Williams? And what is up with posters that do not know our players names? Who the hell is B Troupe? My bad Pete..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Now let me get this straight. You're saying that because Eric Moulds was not a starter (in fact not much of a helpful player at all) because he did not start in his second year he was a bad pick? Sure this is one player's story but your declaration declaring any #2 or #3 who does not start is a bad pick does not seem to offer an latitude for reality. Let me rephrase that - if the staff is already drafting someone else to be the starter the next year, those were bad picks - agreed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvermike Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Kevin Williams is not a 3-4 standard five-technique end from all I read. http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2011/1/11/1927873/examining-multiple-defensive-fronts-featuring-kyle-williams Yeah, Kyle is great at a 1-tech or a 3-tech position - either way, a single-gap, disruptive role. Our best d-line next year, if all goes well, would feature KW playing the 3-tech outside, with Marcel Dareus on the other end playing a 5-tech, and Torrel Troup developing into reliable, 0-technique NT. It would also be plausible to give Carrington the Dareus role if we go somewhere else in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimer1960 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Another thing that really bothers me and what the fans of the NFL have become. They want pro-bowlers in year one out of college. Yes first rounders should eventually be pro-bowlers but not until year 3 or 4, sometimes you get the flash in the pan where a guy comes out and is a complete stud from the get go. It kinda reminds me of cavemen when they discovered fire, how they are all gathered around the flame, let the flame grow and don't smother it before it gets to develope. Don't expect to much from a first year player. We all thought myself included that spiller was the next coming of Johnson or Peterson, he still might be. It wasn't till year two when Johnson exploded, and Peterson was just a beast from the get go (I think his career is going to be short because of the way he came out and the Vikings put so much on his shoulders from day one. So my point is, give these guys time to grow, a champion isn't built overnight... I agree with you that many fans expect too much of rookies. However, I disagree that "first rounders should eventually be pro-bowlers". They definitely should develop into good players, but there are clearly not enough Pro-Bowl positions to cover accommodate any 3 years worth of 32 first round players. Now, add in that some positions might have 4-5 (or more) players from the same position drafted in round 1 of any given draft. There *might* be 6 Pro Bowl LTs across both teams, but some years that many are drafted in round 1. Also, figure in that some later round draft picks do become Pro Bowl players (eg Brady, Brees, etc) and there is simply not enough room on the Pro-Bowl rosters for every first rounder to become a ProBowl player. First round picks should develop into good quality starting players. Some might become Pro Bowl players, but to say a team "blew it" because a first round pick of theirs starts for several years but never makes the ProBowl I think is unfair. Edited January 31, 2011 by OldTimer1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Let me rephrase that - if the staff is already drafting someone else to be the starter the next year, those were bad picks - agreed? no. Its called building depth along the DL. Especially is stroud doesn't have much left in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Jay Ratlif, yeah just like kyle williams and we still can't stop the run. Vince Wilfork is way over 325, Teams still lie about their players heights and weights. Remeber Ted Washington the best NT of all time, Parcells said he'd bet good money that he was 380 - 400 Lbs. The point is the Nose needs to be massive and the best NTs in the league are. Ten Lbs on his Troupes frame isn't going to cut it, he would do well to get back up to 345. Weight is not the end all be all of good line play. You say our DE's should be 330 yet I point out that most good 3-4 DE's are in the 280-305 range. Now NT's can only be effective if they are well above 340? Wilfork is 6 foot 2 325 he looks massive girth wise because a lot of the people he plays against are 2-4 inches taller and 10-20 pounds lighter. He plays the run tough because he stays low to the ground and has good size for a guy who is considered a shorter player. If you watched the Bills play you saw that Kyle was the Bills best player on D and disrupted things to the point where lines were triple teaming him. He held the point of attack and penetrated well its just teams often triple teamed him or ran at the ends. I agree with you in one sense that Kyle is better suited to play 3-4 DE on running downs (1st, 2nd, and 3rd and short) and 3-4 NT on passing downs (2nd and long, 3rd and not short) while Troup plays NT on rushing downs. I disagree that Troup should go up to 345 as he simply isn't going to be conditioned enough to play at that weight and he will lose strength and the ability to play multi downs and pursue. 325-330 is a good weight for Troup where he can still be a 3 down player who can have full mobility. Consider Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, Sione Pouha (Jets NT), and Kelly Gregg (Ravens NT) are all considered good to great NT's all play around that weight of 320-330. Ratlif who is consider one of the best NT's is also a freakish exception at 305. Also if you look at other 3-4 NT's almost all play around 320-330. Ron Edwards of the Chiefs is 320, Aubrayo Franklin of the 49ers is 317 (Although short at 6 feet tall), Antonio Garay of the Chargers plays an inch taller then Troup at 320, Ahtyba Rubin plays a little heavier at 330 and 6 foot 1. Only Jammal Williams, Paul Solai, Ma'ake Kemoeatu, and BJ Raji play above 330 and out of those two the best two Solai and Raji they both play under 340 (335 and 337 respectively). So that only leaves two 3-4 NT's that play above 340 and both are mediocre players. Troup is 6 foot 3 315 but if he bulks up 10-15 pounds he will be a good size to play a 3-4 NT as he will be in the range of 325-330 which as I said is well within where most 3-4 NT's play. Edited January 31, 2011 by billsfan89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobChalmers Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 no. Its called building depth along the DL. Especially is stroud doesn't have much left in the tank. Sorry - the math of that does NOT add up. A team gets 21 players (on average) in the first 3 rounds over 7 years - a long duration for an NFL career. It's great if you can fill starting spots with deeper picks - but if your picks 1-3 aren't filling those slots, you made the wrong picks - period. You can't be using 2nd-round picks on career backup players - there aren't enough picks to go around for that. You cannot be replacing your second round picks with new picks at the same position the very next year and not call the 2nd rounder a disappointment. Put another way - they spent a good pick on Troupe to fill a need. He either fills it at some point long before his rookie contract is over, or they whiffed on the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Kevin? Is that Kyle's cousin? BUt yeah not a 5 technique. I like the way he uses him in the diagrams to penetrate. Ugh... I was tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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