Troupe B

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Draftek has Troupe graded as a B. I think he might be a solid player but is just not big enough for Nose, he's just 315 which should be the size of our ends. Was really hoping we would draft Rob Gronkowski instead and unfortunately for us he turned out great for Cheatriots.

 

http://www.drafttek.com/rookieretror2.asp

[John from Riverside]

Draftek has Troupe graded as a B. I think he might be a solid player but is just not big enough for Nose, he's just 315 which should be the size of our ends. Was really hoping we would draft Rob Gronkowski instead and unfortunately for us he turned out great for Cheatriots.

 

http://www.drafttek.com/rookieretror2.asp

 

You do know that Troupe SLIMMED DOWN to 315 pounds that is not his natural weight?

 

This is the thing with Troupe.....he isnt done growing yet....a year of NFL conditioning is gonna do wonders for this kid just like Carrington. What you have with him is a kid who is very well biult in the LOWER body. Who will put on some mass and strength in the upper body. This is not a situation of a DT who had to add weight to play in the NFL Troupe is a big boy.

 

By the way....Carrington who is a prototype DE in a 3-4 is actually around 290

[Buffalo Barbarian]

You do know that Troupe SLIMMED DOWN to 315 pounds that is not his natural weight?

 

This is the thing with Troupe.....he isnt done growing yet....a year of NFL conditioning is gonna do wonders for this kid just like Carrington. What you have with him is a kid who is very well biult in the LOWER body. Who will put on some mass and strength in the upper body. This is not a situation of a DT who had to add weight to play in the NFL Troupe is a big boy.

 

By the way....Carrington who is a prototype DE in a 3-4 is actually around 290

 

Who ever told him to slim down was an idiot and Carrington should get bigger too, 320 would be good for his frame. Haloti Ngata is 350 at end, which is unusual but 34 ends should be over 300.

[John from Riverside]

Who ever told him to slim down was an idiot and Carrington should get bigger too, 320 would be good for his frame. Haloti Ngata is 350 at end, which is unusual but 34 ends should be over 300.

 

 

You are getting too into stereotype weights....what matters is that they have enough big boy size to do what the job requires AND the stamina to be able to stay on the field and not have to be replaced on 3rd down.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Carrington's 290 weight....he is an absolutely freak body wise and you have a guy who is stout against the run while still having some pretty good quickness....

 

Take a look at Marcus Stroud he has "prototype" DE size in the 3-4 and was getting his butt handed to him on a regular basis this past year......

 

I worry about how they play not what their stat line is......I still think either Darius or Farely should be the pick at 3 if we stay put there because Stroud needs to be replaced and you have to rotate DL guys to keep them fresh. If the guys up front are stout the linebackers will look better

[billsfan89]

Who ever told him to slim down was an idiot and Carrington should get bigger too, 320 would be good for his frame. Haloti Ngata is 350 at end, which is unusual but 34 ends should be over 300.

 

It wasn't the Bills who told him to slim down. He did it in college to be better conditioned. In his junior year he played as high as 345 and slimmed down to 315. So he dropped 30 pounds and he had an outstanding senior year being able to play 3 downs.

 

Troup will bulk up a bit as he is currently 315 he should be able to add 10 pounds to his frame and not lose his mobility or conditioning which is solid for a 3-4 DT to be 6 foot 3 and 325. Vince Wilfork considered one of if not the best one gap run defenders in the league is 6 foot 2 and 325. Which if Troup added 10 pounds to his frame would be the same weight and only 1 inch taller.

 

Weight is not the be all end all to how good a run defender you are. Kyle Williams plays the run pretty well and is only what 306-308. Jay Ratlif plays NT for the Cowboys and is a multi-time pro-bowler and considered one of the best NT's in the league and he plays at 306.

 

Guys who weight 330 plus get pushed around all the time or have limitations on how many downs they can play so weight is only one factor in how good a player can defend the run.

[billsfan89]

You are getting too into stereotype weights....what matters is that they have enough big boy size to do what the job requires AND the stamina to be able to stay on the field and not have to be replaced on 3rd down.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Carrington's 290 weight....he is an absolutely freak body wise and you have a guy who is stout against the run while still having some pretty good quickness....

 

Take a look at Marcus Stroud he has "prototype" DE size in the 3-4 and was getting his butt handed to him on a regular basis this past year......

 

I worry about how they play not what their stat line is......I still think either Darius or Farely should be the pick at 3 if we stay put there because Stroud needs to be replaced and you have to rotate DL guys to keep them fresh. If the guys up front are stout the linebackers will look better

 

Very good point about people taking weight as the only factor to how good a run defender can be.

 

The average weight for a 3-4 DE is 280-300. Very few 3-4 DE's play well above 300 Nagta is the exception not the rule. Brett Keisel DE for Pittsburgh plays at 285, Ziggy Hood DE for the Steelers plays at 300, Aaron Smith was one of the best run stuffing 3-4 DE's for the Steelers plays at 295.

 

Richard Seymour was 6 foot 6 and played at 305 for the Pats*, Shaun Ellis 3-4 DE for the Jets is 290, and I think you get the point that the range you are looking for in a 3-4 DE is 280-300 very few go beyond 300-310.

 

Carrington is big enough weight wise to play the position he probably could add 10 pounds to his frame to get up to 290 but the guy doesn't need to add drastic amounts of weight. I would like to see the Bills get Dareus with pick 3.

 

Give me a D-line of

 

DE- Edwards with Carrington backing up/rotating

NT- Kyle Williams with Troup rotating

DE- Dareus with a solid veteran free agent and Kyle Williams rotating in.

[Spiderweb]

It wasn't the Bills who told him to slim down. He did it in college to be better conditioned. In his junior year he played as high as 345 and slimmed down to 315. So he dropped 30 pounds and he had an outstanding senior year being able to play 3 downs.

 

Troup will bulk up a bit as he is currently 315 he should be able to add 10 pounds to his frame and not lose his mobility or conditioning which is solid for a 3-4 DT to be 6 foot 3 and 325. Vince Wilfork considered one of if not the best one gap run defenders in the league is 6 foot 2 and 325. Which if Troup added 10 pounds to his frame would be the same weight and only 1 inch taller.

 

Weight is not the be all end all to how good a run defender you are. Kyle Williams plays the run pretty well and is only what 306-308. Jay Ratlif plays NT for the Cowboys and is a multi-time pro-bowler and considered one of the best NT's in the league and he plays at 306.

 

Guys who weight 330 plus get pushed around all the time or have limitations on how many downs they can play so weight is only one factor in how good a player can defend the run.

 

Just be careful with the weight comparisons and "listed weights". Ted Washington was also "listed" at 325 for years and it was reported in his last year in Buffalo that he crowded 400 plus at times. It can go the other way as well. Bruce Smith carried a "listed" weigh of 273 but it was also reported back in the day that he frequently slipped under 260. Light or heavy, both Bruce and Ted were "players".

[Hplarrm]

How you employ the weight you have (or fail to use it) makes a huge difference beyond the simple stats.

 

An example is Ryan Denney (not a great player but does show this point). Stat wise he seemed to be the DL player the Bills needed as a rookie. He was tall, the rookie weight was stout enough to hold his own against the run but agile and tapered enough to have registered a bunch of sacks against college competition to get a high draft pick. Most impressive logistically having taken a couple of years to a Morman mission, he was older than most seniors and held the potential to help the Bills quickly.

 

Yet, he proved to not even be a contributor his first year (the conventional wisdom somehow has a first day pick probably starting his first year though in real life this is only true for a small bit above 50% of 1st rounders and even here the bias is toward top 10 picks being first year starters in part because the guys they replace are so bad).

 

In fact he not only did not contribute he was not even active virtually all games his rookie year.

 

Apparently he had trouble bending his knees and retaining leverage when he locked up with blockers and proved to be easily defeatable as a pro as even pedestrian blockers were taught to grab him when you engage, take leverage he gave you because he did not bend his knees and could be straightened up and throw him aside like a ragdoll.

 

It took a year, bu he finally learned to resist his natural tendency to get too high when engaged and learned additional effective moves besides run around the blocker(cause if he engaged he was gonna get beat and if he only was effective when using his athleticism to run around the blocker tackles were simply faster as pros, RBs had learned how to effectively blitz pick-up (a big problem for virtually all rookie RBs), and QBs simply had to step up in the pocket to eliminate Denney as an issue.

 

Carrington is a different type of player as a DE and the new improved Denney actually held his own at DT so recognition of Troupe being different is relevant also.

 

The big relevant thing is Denney while no world beater does show that a player can learn some pretty basic things in one year of play to turn them from a non-factor to at least being a contributor in one year. Both Troup and Carrington have the potential advantage that both in fact were contributors as rookies. They have a pro-bowl meriting DT playing with them all the time or at least when we go 4-3 and the future actually bodes well for the Bills on DL even if they do not get more talent on DL.

 

In fact, particularly since the base D is a 3-4 and arguably we have two adequate LBs at any given moment the #3 would most improve this team by getting the best LB possible (likely by trading down as none of the LBs seems worth a #3) and getting the additional talent needed on the OL as well.

[bbfan24]

Spiderweb

 

Need a hero? Just look within your

own family, you might be surprised.

 

My "NEW" Bills Rec Room & Bar

 

 

 

Spiderweb. Awesome job on the rec room and bar. Hope to have one of my own someday! enjoyed the pics! GO BILLS!

[Slayers]

Draftek has Troupe graded as a B. I think he might be a solid player but is just not big enough for Nose, he's just 315 which should be the size of our ends. Was really hoping we would draft Rob Gronkowski instead and unfortunately for us he turned out great for Cheatriots.

 

http://www.drafttek.com/rookieretror2.asp

 

After look more and more at this site I am starting to question it a C grade for a player that tripped down the stairs and might never play in the NFL and a C grade for our first round RB that had a better average then most the other RB they gave A too

[Pete]

Ben Troupe? Is he making a comeback. I know we are hurting at TE but Ben Troupe is not the answer

[BobChalmers]

Very good point about people taking weight as the only factor to how good a run defender can be.

 

The average weight for a 3-4 DE is 280-300. Very few 3-4 DE's play well above 300 Nagta is the exception not the rule. Brett Keisel DE for Pittsburgh plays at 285, Ziggy Hood DE for the Steelers plays at 300, Aaron Smith was one of the best run stuffing 3-4 DE's for the Steelers plays at 295.

 

Richard Seymour was 6 foot 6 and played at 305 for the Pats*, Shaun Ellis 3-4 DE for the Jets is 290, and I think you get the point that the range you are looking for in a 3-4 DE is 280-300 very few go beyond 300-310.

 

Carrington is big enough weight wise to play the position he probably could add 10 pounds to his frame to get up to 290 but the guy doesn't need to add drastic amounts of weight. I would like to see the Bills get Dareus with pick 3.

 

Give me a D-line of

 

DE- Edwards with Carrington backing up/rotating

NT- Kyle Williams with Troup rotating

DE- Dareus with a solid veteran free agent and Kyle Williams rotating in.

 

Sorry - I just don't get the logic of using last year's #2 and #3 draft picks as back-ups.

 

If they aren't starting next year those were bad picks.

 

I believe Buddy Nix agrees with me, btw, which is why he was just talking this week about the need to get bigger at LB as his response to how to improve the run defense.

 

Your starting line next year needs to be Williams - Troupe - Carrington/Edwards with the other filling in. If it isn't, they screwed up badly on last year's draft.

 

Where's the next Patrick Willis in this draft?

 

Can Dareus can project to OLB or am I thinking of someone else?

[Green Lightning]

You are getting too into stereotype weights....what matters is that they have enough big boy size to do what the job requires AND the stamina to be able to stay on the field and not have to be replaced on 3rd down.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Carrington's 290 weight....he is an absolutely freak body wise and you have a guy who is stout against the run while still having some pretty good quickness....

 

Take a look at Marcus Stroud he has "prototype" DE size in the 3-4 and was getting his butt handed to him on a regular basis this past year......

 

I worry about how they play not what their stat line is......I still think either Darius or Farely should be the pick at 3 if we stay put there because Stroud needs to be replaced and you have to rotate DL guys to keep them fresh. If the guys up front are stout the linebackers will look better

 

 

+1

 

Saw Troup (no "e") in TC last year. Massive lower frame. Needs pro strength training but has plenty of room to get bigger. I see him at 330 or so and powerful. This off season is huge for him. I think he'll be a beast.

[Nasty]

They also said Kyle Williams was to small for NT before the season. Everyone was saying he needs to put on weight to hold the point of attack. But Williams proved everyone wrong, not because of his weight, but because he is a football player. So IMO body weights for position and who should be what is a bunch of crap. If the guy is a football player he is a football player period. I personnally think Troupe is going to be a beast. He needed to get use to the NFL game and competeing against elite atheletes which I saw an improvement every game which he can grow on for next year. He will be alright. If he matures enough I would like to see him in the middle and Williams on the end.

 

Another thing that really bothers me and what the fans of the NFL have become. They want pro-bowlers in year one out of college. Yes first rounders should eventually be pro-bowlers but not until year 3 or 4, sometimes you get the flash in the pan where a guy comes out and is a complete stud from the get go. It kinda reminds me of cavemen when they discovered fire, how they are all gathered around the flame, let the flame grow and don't smother it before it gets to develope. Don't expect to much from a first year player. We all thought myself included that spiller was the next coming of Johnson or Peterson, he still might be. It wasn't till year two when Johnson exploded, and Peterson was just a beast from the get go (I think his career is going to be short because of the way he came out and the Vikings put so much on his shoulders from day one. So my point is, give these guys time to grow, a champion isn't built overnight...

[PDaDdy]

They also said Kyle Williams was to small for NT before the season. Everyone was saying he needs to put on weight to hold the point of attack. But Williams proved everyone wrong, not because of his weight, but because he is a football player. So IMO body weights for position and who should be what is a bunch of crap. If the guy is a football player he is a football player period. I personnally think Troupe is going to be a beast. He needed to get use to the NFL game and competeing against elite atheletes which I saw an improvement every game which he can grow on for next year. He will be alright. If he matures enough I would like to see him in the middle and Williams on the end.

 

Another thing that really bothers me and what the fans of the NFL have become. They want pro-bowlers in year one out of college. Yes first rounders should eventually be pro-bowlers but not until year 3 or 4, sometimes you get the flash in the pan where a guy comes out and is a complete stud from the get go. It kinda reminds me of cavemen when they discovered fire, how they are all gathered around the flame, let the flame grow and don't smother it before it gets to develope. Don't expect to much from a first year player. We all thought myself included that spiller was the next coming of Johnson or Peterson, he still might be. It wasn't till year two when Johnson exploded, and Peterson was just a beast from the get go (I think his career is going to be short because of the way he came out and the Vikings put so much on his shoulders from day one. So my point is, give these guys time to grow, a champion isn't built overnight...

 

I won't speak ill of KW because he has continued to prove me wrong the past 4 years or so. Let's put this in perspective. KW played NT on a statistically VERY bad defense that wonders of wonders didn't have the size and skill to stop the run. KW was drafted as and is a penetrating tampa 2 style DT. I think making him a DE is a perfect move for us. He NEEDS to be there to take advantage of his penetration. Use his best talents. We need a NT that can anchor the line, tie up 2 defenders and let the other guys wreak havoc.

 

FREE KYLE WILLIAMS!!!!

[The Big Cat]

Ugh. Who gives a **** how much a guy weighs, how tall he is, what his average payload is whenever he takes a crap...

 

Does he have good technique?

 

We really need to stop keeping our fingers crossed for DLine play makers. That's not their role, especially not in the 3-4. Proper technique trumps speed, strength, weight, vertical leap, and every other meaningless metric when it comes to Dlinemen.

 

For more information, see: Pittsburgh.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Ugh. Who gives a **** how much a guy weighs, how tall he is, what his average payload is whenever he takes a crap...

 

Does he have good technique?

 

We really need to stop keeping our fingers crossed for DLine play makers. That's not their role, especially not in the 3-4. Proper technique trumps speed, strength, weight, vertical leap, and every other meaningless metric when it comes to Dlinemen.

 

For more information, see: Pittsburgh.

 

My overall reaction is "the Cat ROARS!". Then "proper technique" brings me to "is Giff Smith and his 19 years of collegiate coaching experience the right guy to teach our DL good NFL-level technique?" Maybe he is....maybe on the line the best technique is the same from Pop Warner on up? I dunno.

 

That said, in the final analysis:

won't a bigger, stronger, heavier guy with proper technique win the battle over a smaller, lighter guy with proper technique?

[Ramius]

A good NT simply needs to anchor to hold the line of attack. You can have great technique and anchor without being a fat 350lb tub of crap.

 

I swear, i don't know if it's an inferiority complex, but Buffalo fans have this odd obsession with size and always being "too small".

Edited January 29, 2011 by Ramius

[DC Grid]

Sorry - I just don't get the logic of using last year's #2 and #3 draft picks as back-ups.

 

If they aren't starting next year those were bad picks.

 

I believe Buddy Nix agrees with me, btw, which is why he was just talking this week about the need to get bigger at LB as his response to how to improve the run defense.

 

Your starting line next year needs to be Williams - Troupe - Carrington/Edwards with the other filling in. If it isn't, they screwed up badly on last year's draft.

 

Where's the next Patrick Willis in this draft?

 

Can Dareus can project to OLB or am I thinking of someone else?

 

I think you're dead right. The lineup should be:

 

DE Kyle Williams

NT Troupe

DE A. Carington, backed up by Edwards

 

Then draft Von Miller at OLB. He isn't the next Patrick Willis, but he could be the next Lamar Woodly or Shawne Merriman.

[Ghost of Rob Johnson]

Draftek has Troupe graded as a B. I think he might be a solid player but is just not big enough for Nose, he's just 315 which should be the size of our ends. Was really hoping we would draft Rob Gronkowski instead and unfortunately for us he turned out great for Cheatriots.

 

http://www.drafttek.com/rookieretror2.asp

Current 3-4 teams NTs at the combine:

Casey Hampton - 314lbs...now listed at 325 lbs

Shaun Rogers - 320 lbs...now listed at 350 lbs

Ryan Pickett - 309 lbs...now listed at 340 lbs

 

Torell will be 22 years old going into next season, he's got alot of growing to do. Wouldn't be surprised if he's more like 320lbs or 325 lbs going into camp next year.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Ghost of Rob Johnson