Tell me again what wins championships?

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm not forgetting Green Bay of the '70's - '80s. The reason I bring up the '90s is that the organization decided to hire professionals for the football operations - it started with Wolf and hasn't missed a beat with Thompson. Even in thew alternate universe if Packers had struck out with Losman, they would have moved on to someone else who can play in the NFL.

I know I'm in the minority, but I think Losman's career might have had an entirely different trajectory in a Green Bay uniform. I don't think he would have turned into Aaron Rodgers, but I do think he might still be with the team that drafted him.

 

Agreed on Wolf. One of the best ever. I really wanted the Bills to back a truck full of money up to his house before they hired Nix.

 

I think it has more to do with Batting Average with runs in scoring position, but we can agree to disagree.

Don't bring baseball into this, especially when you're dealing with non-repeatable stats that few respected minds in the game rely on.

[GG]

Thanks professor. Somebody should've told Marv his speech was wrong, maybe we would have won one of those super bowls.

 

It wasn't the speech, it was the song.

 

 

Agreed on Wolf. One of the best ever. I really wanted the Bills to back a truck full of money up to his house before they hired Nix.

 

 

I have it on good authority that Wolf had absolutely no interest in coming back.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I have it on good authority that Wolf had absolutely no interest in coming back.

I'm sure. If he had any, someone would have coaxed him out of retirement by now. He's got nothing to prove, that's for sure.

[JohnC]

I don't agree John, and it's not because of rose colored glasses. Not only have we seen teams turn around in just a couple years, we have also seen teams crash hard from contender status to cellar dwellers. There is just so much mediocrity in the league that very little separates every team. We, the 2010 Bills, took Chicago and Pittsburgh to OT with great chances to win both games. We suck at TO's, which eventually leads to opposition points, which leads to disbanding the running game to try and catch up.

 

I do agree we've made terrible personnel choices over the last few regimes, wich has surely had an effect on the overall team play. But I believe in the new regime's ability to better assess personnel and we're simply not that far away from contending in the league the way it's set up now. JMO.

 

The reason my time frame is longer than yours is that we are competing in a division with the Patriots and Jets. We probably have to leapfrog one of them to get into playoffs. The Pats are entering next season with the youngest defense in the league and they have multiple picks in the first, second and third. With respect to the Jets their organization has more resources and are more aggressive on the market to upgrade their team.

 

My view is to just focus on your own responsibilites and draft well and be judicious on your free agent selections. I don't believe there is a quick fix and I'm not concerned about it. The past is the past. Hopefully, the front office has learned from some of the mistakes. What the organization needs to do is just function as a smart organization and eventually things are going to turn. Many people think we are on the cusp. I don't. There is a lot of work to be done. What we have here is a respectful disagreement.

 

there. fyp

 

fyp???? Am I being cursed at? Is this F-U-*rick?

Edited January 24, 2011 by JohnC

[Captain Caveman]

It wasn't the speech, it was the song.

 

Shout?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Defense wins championships... but you still need an offense to wina the Super Bowl.

[Chandler#81]

The reason my time frame is longer than yours is that we are competing in a division with the Patriots and Jets. We probably have to leapfrog one of them to get into playoffs. The Pats are entering next season with the youngest defense in the league and they have multiple picks in the first, second and third. With respect to the Jets their organization has more resources and are more aggressive on the market to upgrade their team.

 

My view is to just focus on your own responsibilites and draft well and be judicious on your free agent selections. I don't believe there is a quick fix and I'm not concerned about it. The past is the past. Hopefully, the front office has learned from some of the mistakes. What the organization needs to do is just function as a smart organization and eventually things are going to turn. Many people think we are on the cusp. I don't. There is a lot of work to be done. What we have here is a respectful disagreement.

 

 

 

fyp???? Am I being cursed at? Is this F-U-*rick?

 

 

Ah, yes. The Pats* & the Jets.

 

We could have a quick turnaround that would vie for a Division title in any of 4 divisions (AFC W & S, NFC W & N), but not our division, I agree. This said, the Jets turnaround only took a couple years, focusing on beating NE -as their currently comprised. There is a blueprint available. To me, the question is whether Nix, Gailey & Whaley are the right engineers to construct it.

[GG]

Shout?

 

No. I was referring to Marv's fight songs.

[DanInUticaTampa]

Having Big Ben certainly helps.

 

and rodgers.

[CosmicBills]

Regardless of how good both these team's defenses are, and they're both very good, the Super Bowl winner will be determined by who gets the best QB play on Feb 6th.

 

The smart money is on the Packers because Rodgers has been lights out down the stretch.

[JohnC]

I think there is a general consensus in this thread I find easy to agree with. You meed everything to be as good as you can possibly be!

 

Duh.

 

I think the question for the Bills is not so much what do you need (Everything like a running game amd ability to stop the run, the ability to stop the opponent and to convert 3rd downs, a franchise QB) or what do we have right now (next to nothing as we cannot have virtually no ability to stop the run and at best inconsistent running attack, we suck both ways on 3rd down, and our QB is a gamer but not anywhere near a franchise QB right now and really unlikely to become one)

 

but the question is what is the single next step we should make on the road to getting as close to everything as we can.

 

My sense is that while it is tough an answer is clearer.

 

1. Run and stop the run- we suck both ways but I feel we are further away on the D than on the O. Better players would help on either side obviously, but it seems more reasonable to me that we are simply in need of better players on D than on O.

 

I could conceivably see this D performing better and this virtually immediately improving the O performance with shorter fields to work with. However. even if the O improved enormously I think the D is bad enough that we lose quickly any lead an improved O gives us.

 

Further, this D is more than one player away.

 

I go D first in terms of next steps.

 

2. A franchise QB is a great thing to have a virtual must for an SB winner! However, the Bills boat has so many leaks and holes that it strikes me as rearranging some eventually essential deck chairs on this sinking ship to focus on a QB first. I know a franchise QB is much more than a deck chair and a franchise QB is in part defined as a player who makes the athletes around him even better.. BUT...

 

a. He would need to make an OL that is at least a player and a half short of adequacy better and even a franchise QB would find this challenge hard

b. He would need to set the opponent back on their heels that our D would not be just fighting to hang on but would be poised for the kill. Again, even if this franchise QB delivered all he could deliver on the O side and even inspired the D, ST. the coaches. and the region with his leadership, the simple fact is that this D is at least 2 quality players short of adequacy (specifically the DL may be simply a solid though not outstanding player short due to some young potential on the roster and Williams outstanding play, but the LB corps has neither one leading go-to stud and as a 4 LB unit is simply a consistent player short.

c. The player failings on this team are such that not only would the newly acquired franchise QB not be given the support he needs to win, but in this faster heavier hitting NFL it is simply questionable whether the franchise QB even lives behind this OL.

d. Finally, with Luck passing there simply is no one even near a concensus franchise QB pick in this draft.

 

DO NOT TRADE UP OR SPEND THE VALUABLE #3 and #2 IN THE SECOND ROUND ON qb INSTEAD OF STRENGTHENING THE TRENCHES.

 

As you noted most everyone agrees that there are multiple needs on both sides of the ball. If our scouts believe that there is a franchise qb available worthy of being taken with our first round pick that doesn't mean some of our other needs can't also be addressed with the remaining picks and through free agency.

 

Would adding a mid-level free agent OT and TE have an impact on the offense? I think so. Assuming there is a timely CBA agreement there are some quality defensivive prospects which can give us more flexibility in this draft.

 

Getting a franchise qb sooner rather than later on the roster will in the not too distant future have a greater impact on upgrading the roster. No one is suggesting that a rookie qb is immediately going to make an impact because it probably is not, although it did in St. Louis. Ask the Packers if they are glad that they took Rodgers in the first round, even though he sat for three years before getting real playing?

 

Drafting a qb with a high pick doesn't necessarily translate into not addressing other needs.

Edited January 24, 2011 by JohnC

[GG]

So earlier you said the run, throw, catch, block, tackle, kick speech was wrong. Then you said the speech wasn't wrong and the song was wrong. But shout is ok?

 

Shout is fine, but it's no Talking Proud.

[BuffOrange]

While I do think a team needs to be strong vs the run on defense, especially in the playoffs, it's more that a team needs good balance to win than anything else. Being able to both run and stop the run is great, but it doesn't guarantee anything. There were only 3 teams that finished the regular season in the league's top 10 in both rushing offense and rushing defense. Of those three teams, only one made it to the postseason, that being the NY Jets, who finished 4th in rush offense and 3rd in rush defense. The other teams? NY Giants and Minnesota. Green Bay made it to the Super Bowl w/ a team featuring the league's 24th ranked rush offense and 18th ranked rush defense. But, they also have Aaron Rodgers playing as well as any QB right now and a defense that is also playing very well. Run and stop the run? Absolutely, but also be able to produce in terms of the passing game, pass defense, and also on special teams. Balance will get the Bills back to respectability.

 

Absolutely. Saying that "the winning team ran for more yards" is almost akin to saying they scored more points. Winning teams usually run the ball more because they have a lead. As neither the Packers or Steelers OLs are anywhere near as good as the Jets, I wouldn't say yesterday's game is the best example of trying to make a point about the Bills problems (although I am in the "I wish we had more/better 'fat guys'" camp).

[sllib olaffub]

I consider myself a realist. I want to be optimistic, though, when I look at Buffalo. It's easy to be down on certain aspects of the team, as well. If I were to say, "Wilson is the main fault with this team", there would be people here who would say, "sure, you're right - it starts at the top". But, there would be people who say, "Just like a dimwitted Buffalo fan, always blaming the owner, this and that, when it's really -"

My point here is that on this site there are such a wide range of views that it's impossible to get agreement about anything, where optimism is usually seen as ignorance, and where skepticism is seen also as being too negative.

 

I don't think, though, that this team is years away from contending. I just don't see us that far off. It always comes back to coaching and personnel management when you figure on what makes Championship teams. That is the bottom line, and that is the magic bullet.

You take this same roster and transplant it to Pittsburgh next year. With their Coordinators and coaching philosophy, and ownership, you would have a playoff team in a few years - two, maybe, and it could remain good indefinately. They'd find good players all over our team, and they'd also get rid of a bunch. Same goes with Green Bay.

 

My point is, when you have good management and coaching in place, with a definite philosophy - you can much better identify players that will succeed/fit with what you're doing. It's always the case where players that play great - like Farrier in Pittsburgh - in one place, because of scheme, go elsewhere and don't play as well. With the right system in place you know exactly the kind of players you need for each position, and it is easier to find the types in any round of the draft, and free agency. You take the physical builds the way you like them, and over the course of a few years you mold that physical talent into the kind of player you want.

 

With our team, of late, you have so much turnover everywhere on the coaching staff that each new coach spends his first two years phasing out the talent he's aquired and bringing in the new "types" he wants - but that phasing out and bringing in takes up to four years to see a total transformation. By that time the fan base has been sick of the wait - not to mention the drafting hasn't been that good.

 

As long as Nix and Gailey know what they want to achieve, team identity and philosophy wise, then we can expect to start to see a competitive team in 2011, I think. I truly believe you could make a powerhouse out of either our offense or defense this offseason, with the right moves, and that you could have a legitimate top NFL team in 2 years, if we draft and manage the F.A. process right.

 

It starts at the top - as long as we have a good structure in place, the rest will follow - and I think we have that now.

[Dr. Trooth]

I consider myself a realist. I want to be optimistic, though, when I look at Buffalo.

 

 

Well, I don't just consider myself a realist... I am a realist. So, it's good once and a while to be on, or close to the same page as someone. I don't embellish anything. Bills fans, in general "over value" the Bills players and coaches and "under value" any other team an players that are not the Bills.

 

I don't think, though, that this team is years away from contending.

 

OK. You don't think this team is "years away" from contending. Well, "years" is plural. So, it indicates two or more years from now. From what I see right here, right now, it's hard for me to imagine a playoff game in the next 5 years.

 

1) I'm looking at a defense that got trampled and ravaged big time this past season. One, two, or three good players is not going to suddenly vault them into the top 10 defensively. And, a decision to be a "hybrid" defense (4-3 one week, two weeks later a 3-4) is the worst thing they could do. It might surprise a few teams and the Bills could steal a game or two just like the Dolphins did with the wildcat (but look at the Dolphins... where are they now and where are they going), but when you switch back and forth like that, you have different starters, different groupings of personnel, and when you get an injury or two, now you're in a pickle because you have to service two freaking different alignments and the personnel.

2) A GM coach that look clueless. They say they're going to the 3-4 initially... fail to realize they don't have the personnel, and now they waffle and want to bounce back and forth. They look indecisive and uncommitted to what they said the very first few days they were on the job.

3) This team has gotten virtually nothing from their last 5 or 6 first round picks. If it wasn't for Wood, they'd be totally shut out in the first round. Their draft picks, in general, over those same period haven't really made a significant impact. Kyle Williams, Steve Johnson, Levitre, Wood, Byrd, are the only one that have really. So, they haven't demonstrated they can draft. I can understand why they only bring in "B" and "C" free agents in because why bring in a high priced FA when you've got nothing around him. They whiffed badly on 4 QBs in the past decade. The parade of cheap street free agent Olineman like Scott, Simmons, Green, Hangartner, Teague, Gandy, Reyes just illustrates their incompetence to draft right and fortify their OL. And, the same could be said for almost every position.

 

There is no plauseable evidence that they are going to turn this thing around anytime soon. The offense surprised me this year and played pretty good... relative to how they normally played over the past few years, but their offense ain't even in the same league as offenses like GB, NE, Indy, NO, SD, DAL, PHILLY, etc. They can't consistently run the ball. Got a beat up 31 yr old as their best RB and a 1st round scat back that can't (or won't) run between the tackles and can't even seem to get outside and turn it up field. An offensive line that sorely needs an upgrade at both tackles and TE has been a revolving door for years. Meanwhile, I guarantee the Jets, Pats, Dolphins will get better in the offseason. Brady's got another 4-5 years, Sanchez will only be going into his third season, Miami still has a good defense and will a new OC have a positive affect on Henne?

 

So, when you're mired in a decade of 72-88, how can anyone have any measure of confidence in Ralph and his cronies that we'll see playoffs when you're in the same division with those other teams. You've got to hope some bad things happen to those teams at the same time good luck hits the Bills to even get close.

[Thoner7]

You know what else wins championships for cold weather teams? Running the football successfully. Big Ben only attempted 19 passes last night, and the Packers outran the Bears.

The Jets out ran NE, the Ravens outran the Chiefs, Pitt out ran Balt., and so on. I'm not sure, but I think that the team with the most rushing yardage won every game played in the cold in the playoffs.

This could be us, but this franchise tends to use top draft selections on running backs, defensive backs, and various gadget players to sell tickets.

 

When Bryce Paup and Big Ted were here, our defense was as good as just about any, but we had no blocking. The need for a good qb goes without saying. After that, cold weather teams need to be able to sustain a ground game in the elements, and of course stop their opponents from running all over them. Green Bay is in the superbowl because of Rodgers, and the fact that they clicked on front seven defensive players and offensive linemen.

They got their scatback in round 6. We got ours with the 8th selection, and there are weak OTs in front of him. This sort of tells the story too, wouldn't you agree?

 

The best defense is a good offense. The team that runs teh ball better has the better D at the end of the day (statistically anyways).

 

Its really not too hard to build a good team, especially with the draft picks the Bills "earn" every year. Somehow the idiots in charge F it up over and over and over.

 

1-Need a QB, you are lost without one.

2- Need an OL that can block for said QB. Very Rarely does a QB do anythign withour protection (Ben is the exception, not the rule)

3- great front 7.

 

The Bills have built their team on DBs, WRs, RBs, and KRs. its no secret why they just flat out SUCK.

[sllib olaffub]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Trooths.

 

The future is up for grabs. We could turn it around in a year, with exceptional drafting, F.A. aquisitions, and luck. Or, it could be two, three years before we're solid enough for contention. Or, we could go another 5-10 years without making the playoffs. Anything is possible.

 

Certainly, our front office structure hasn't produced in the last 15 years. I am usually very down on Ralph and the Bills brass. I have envied the Patriots, Green Bay, and Baltimore - teams who seem to mine gold every year (N.E.'s 6 picks in the first three rounds is evidence of that, and their defensive overhaul in 2 years, from old to young without missing much of a beat). But, Buddy is now running the show - and I am not going to believe he is no good until he proves it - because I like his track record, and I think last years draft was aimed at 2011 and 2012, players like Spiller, Carrington, Troupe, Easley, Moats, Batten - all, I think, will be players in the years to come, and all, I'd say - especially Spiller - drafted not for this past season, but with an eye for putting it all together this year and next.

So, yeah, I like Nix and I think he can do for us what San Diego and Pittsburgh have done, which is to build a good foundation. He brought in Whaley, who would've been considered a good pick up for G.M. outright. Then, Gailey does good with the offense he had. We were in some games. And, now they've brought in Wanny, so the D should improve.

 

Yes, I'm concerned at what seems like a slow player evaluation ability from the coaches last year, but, they did take over the team, maybe they thought they might get more out of the guys and wanted to see for themselves.

 

And, finally, I think we could have a great Defense in this offseason - with the right moves. Likewise, the offense could be made very good, too - but, I don't think we can do both in this year. And, since the draft looks heavy in the defensive personnel we need, I'd say fix the D this year, and wait till next year for the offense (although, I'd pick up a T.E. and R.T. in F.A. this year). Say we go back to a 4-3. We draft Bowers or Fairley. Line him up next to Williams, Troup, and Carrington/Edwards. Linebackers you have Batten/Moats/Merriman and whoever else they bring in, and Poz, if he's resigned. Byrd played good in the 4-3... let Wilson shine, Scott for running downs, and let's say we add Asamugha in F.A. to go with McKelvin and McGee. That would be a shutdown secondary with exceptional turnover capabilities. Maybe get Bailey for safety?

 

Those are some pricey F.A.'s - only a few, but, my point is - I know it isn't exactly realistic for us to get either of them, but my point is that with the right scheme, and the right key additions, we could have a very good unit. It is just having the vision, the determination, and the right scheme and coaching. But, it is possible for us.

[Chandler#81]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Trooths.

 

The future is up for grabs. We could turn it around in a year, with exceptional drafting, F.A. aquisitions, and luck. Or, it could be two, three years before we're solid enough for contention. Or, we could go another 5-10 years without making the playoffs. Anything is possible.

 

Certainly, our front office structure hasn't produced in the last 15 years. I am usually very down on Ralph and the Bills brass. I have envied the Patriots, Green Bay, and Baltimore - teams who seem to mine gold every year (N.E.'s 6 picks in the first three rounds is evidence of that, and their defensive overhaul in 2 years, from old to young without missing much of a beat). But, Buddy is now running the show - and I am not going to believe he is no good until he proves it - because I like his track record, and I think last years draft was aimed at 2011 and 2012, players like Spiller, Carrington, Troupe, Easley, Moats, Batten - all, I think, will be players in the years to come, and all, I'd say - especially Spiller - drafted not for this past season, but with an eye for putting it all together this year and next.

So, yeah, I like Nix and I think he can do for us what San Diego and Pittsburgh have done, which is to build a good foundation. He brought in Whaley, who would've been considered a good pick up for G.M. outright. Then, Gailey does good with the offense he had. We were in some games. And, now they've brought in Wanny, so the D should improve.

 

Yes, I'm concerned at what seems like a slow player evaluation ability from the coaches last year, but, they did take over the team, maybe they thought they might get more out of the guys and wanted to see for themselves.

 

And, finally, I think we could have a great Defense in this offseason - with the right moves. Likewise, the offense could be made very good, too - but, I don't think we can do both in this year. And, since the draft looks heavy in the defensive personnel we need, I'd say fix the D this year, and wait till next year for the offense (although, I'd pick up a T.E. and R.T. in F.A. this year). Say we go back to a 4-3. We draft Bowers or Fairley. Line him up next to Williams, Troup, and Carrington/Edwards. Linebackers you have Batten/Moats/Merriman and whoever else they bring in, and Poz, if he's resigned. Byrd played good in the 4-3... let Wilson shine, Scott for running downs, and let's say we add Asamugha in F.A. to go with McKelvin and McGee. That would be a shutdown secondary with exceptional turnover capabilities. Maybe get Bailey for safety?

 

Those are some pricey F.A.'s - only a few, but, my point is - I know it isn't exactly realistic for us to get either of them, but my point is that with the right scheme, and the right key additions, we could have a very good unit. It is just having the vision, the determination, and the right scheme and coaching. But, it is possible for us.

 

 

Fine analysis. Naysayers can bark that it's Kool-Aid, but I completely agree.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Once again a top 5 QB is going to win the Super Bowl. Having a great defense is nice, but it would take the Bills a really long time to build one, at least two or three drafts where they hit on very high percentage of drafted defenders.

 

Also, it's not really as necessary as having a great QB. The Saints and Colts defenses that won Super Bowls weren't all that great. But it's been a long time since a mediocre or even good QB has won one. NFL rule changes continue to increase the advantage that offenses have every year. IMO, the 2002 Bucs and 2000 Ravens could not win the Super Bowl today.

 

The Bills should tank the 2011 season for Andrew Luck.

The question is do you have confidence the Bills are going to correctly evaluate the QB draft class and select the right guy? The top 5 QB that's going to lead this team to the playoffs and the Super Bowl for the next decade? I do not, therefore I'd rather they select one of the blue chip defensive lineman in this draft where picking an impact starter is more likely.

[Bill from NYC]

So, when you're mired in a decade of 72-88, how can anyone have any measure of confidence in Ralph and his cronies that we'll see playoffs when you're in the same division with those other teams. You've got to hope some bad things happen to those teams at the same time good luck hits the Bills to even get close.

 

Having confidence is admittedly hard, so what I try to do is look for scenarios in which we might make progress.

 

For instance, if either Troup or Carrington turns out to be a good player, this would be a HUGE lift to the defense. If they both can play, it would be amazing. Think about it...most posters want to go DL in round 1. Troup and Carrington were brought along slowly and have a chance to be good players. And, they are already here.

 

Next of course would be the possibility of not throwing away our best pick on a defensive back, rb, or gadget player. The Nix team followed this dumb trend last year, and this admittedly offers a built in reason for doubt. However, at #3 they will have a great deal of options, and we can only hope that they aren't stupid enough to do this again. Frankly, I think Ralph is going to make them take a qb, which wouldn't be the end of the world if they take the right one.

 

Also, there seems to be many free agents out there at positions of need for the Bills. Kevin Boss, Jeremy Trueblood, and a host of linebackers seem to be available. One or 2 free agents could make an immediate impact on this team.

 

Sure, I am hoping and grasping at straws. But isn't this really all have this time of the year?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Bill from NYC