GG Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Sad irony for 'ol whitey that the game will feature two QBs who were in his sights in his quest for the perfect QB. I'm still puzzled why Houston refused to trade their No 1 pick in '04. It's not like Pittsburgh or Jets were really hot after Dunta Robinson. That finger to Donahoe from Houston is truly what set the franchise back a decade. If Houston agrees to the trade, Bills get Ben. It also means that Donahoe doesn't panic and reaches for Losman later in the round, costing valuable draft choices down the road. Adding insult to injury is that if Donahoe stays cool and doesn't trade back to Round 1 to take Losman, he can take a shot at Schaub or another rookie later on. It also means that Packers draft Losman with their pick in Round 1. In that case, Rodgers is there for the taking when Bills pick No 20 in 2005. But who am I kidding, Mularkey would have passed on Rodgers to take his favorite of the draft - Matt Jones. Doomed, even in the back to the future fantasy.
bbb Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I agree with what you're saying, but you lost me on the Rodgers thing. So, you're saying we would now have both Big Ben and Rodgers??
GG Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 I agree with what you're saying, but you lost me on the Rodgers thing. So, you're saying we would now have both Big Ben and Rodgers?? No, Rodgers is option C if Donahoe doesn't panic with Losman, as Houston didn't want to trade down. Option B was Schaub in Round 2 in 2004, or maybe a gamble on a QB in Rounds 5-7. In that case, Rodgers would still be around for Bills pick in 2005.
bbb Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 No, Rodgers is option C if Donahoe doesn't panic with Losman, as Houston didn't want to trade down. Option B was Schaub in Round 2 in 2004, or maybe a gamble on a QB in Rounds 5-7. In that case, Rodgers would still be around for Bills pick in 2005. Got it. I think it's amazing how fast Donahoe went from looking like a genius to looking like a dope, by almost a total consensus of Bills fans. I think it had a lot to do with him not getting along with the media, and that fueled fans opinions.
ElMarko Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Actually - look back to the last Steelers game of the previous season. Cowher essentially threw that game - handing a regulation ending FG to the Ravens and sending the game to overtime - thus allowing the Steelers to draft several spots higher than they would have - including the jump over the Bills to a lower spot... all for the reason of taking a QB ahead of the Bills. I'm 100% convinced of this. Near the 2 minute warning, Cowher decided to go for it on 4th and 1 on HIS OWN 40 YARD LINE. Essentially handing the tying FG to the the Ravens if they didn't make it. What coach would make this decision - knowing that the missed 4th down conversion would essentially hand the tying points to the other team? And overtime of that game was a joke - every play looked like the Steelers were being asked to stand down. I remember watching this knowing that it was going to cost the Bills in the draft order.
Fezmid Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Got it. I think it's amazing how fast Donahoe went from looking like a genius to looking like a dope, by almost a total consensus of Bills fans. I think it had a lot to do with him not getting along with the media, and that fueled fans opinions. Kinda like how everyone was blasting Lovie Smith and the Bears GM? Fans B word. Like Levy said - if you start listening to them, you'll end up sitting with them.
2003Contenders Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Got it. I think it's amazing how fast Donahoe went from looking like a genius to looking like a dope, by almost a total consensus of Bills fans. I think it had a lot to do with him not getting along with the media, and that fueled fans opinions. Indeed, the beginning of the end for TD in terms of fan perception was the day that he announced that Gregg Williams wouldn't be back just days after the 2003 season ended. In that press conference he chastised the fans for not having been more supportive. Many fans never forgave him for that. Prior to that here was the fan perception: 2001: Cleaned up salary cap, oversaw quality draft with plenty of wheeling and dealing 2002: Made the bold move to trade for Bledsoe WITHOUT giving up a pick in THAT year's draft 2003: Turned Peerless Price into a 1st round draft pick. Negotiated hard to attract quality free agents to shore up defense (Takeo, S Adams, L Milloy)
DrDawkinstein Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Doesnt matter if we got Ben, Aaron, or JP. The coaching staffs we went through, the horrible lines, and this team in general, would have ruined all 3 careers. NO rookie qb could have come onto this team in 04-05 and started right away, and been successful. Rodgers had how many years to sit behind Favre and learn? I know it was too many, but it was still a lot more than he would have gotten here. This is why I do not have a problem with the Bills drafting Newton at #3 this year. Get him now, and let him sit behind Fitz for a year (or two). Don't get a QB and throw him into the fire and ruin him like theyve done everyone else. A specific player's career is not transferable to other teams. Every player's success or failure is situational to the team he goes to.
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Doesnt matter if we got Ben, Aaron, or JP. The coaching staffs we went through, the horrible lines, and this team in general, would have ruined all 3 careers. NO rookie qb could have come onto this team in 04-05 and started right away, and been successful. Rodgers had how many years to sit behind Favre and learn? I know it was too many, but it was still a lot more than he would have gotten here. This is why I do not have a problem with the Bills drafting Newton at #3 this year. Get him now, and let him sit behind Fitz for a year (or two). Don't get a QB and throw him into the fire and ruin him like theyve done everyone else. A specific player's career is not transferable to other teams. Every player's success or failure is situational to the team he goes to. You know I disagree with you on Newton, but the rest of this is spot-on. Green Bay, despite a bit of turnover in coaching staffs, has been a relative model of stability. Even with Losman they would have put him in a better position for success. I don't necessarily think he would have succeeded, but the percentages are in favor of a franchise like the Packers, compared to the Bills.
bbb Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Indeed, the beginning of the end for TD in terms of fan perception was the day that he announced that Gregg Williams wouldn't be back just days after the 2003 season ended. In that press conference he chastised the fans for not having been more supportive. Many fans never forgave him for that. Prior to that here was the fan perception: 2001: Cleaned up salary cap, oversaw quality draft with plenty of wheeling and dealing 2002: Made the bold move to trade for Bledsoe WITHOUT giving up a pick in THAT year's draft 2003: Turned Peerless Price into a 1st round draft pick. Negotiated hard to attract quality free agents to shore up defense (Takeo, S Adams, L Milloy) Oh yeah, I forgot about that press conference. That indeed was when things probably started to turn.......But, I do remember being at the Bills opening day tailgate in '03, and I was talking to my friend's brother (somebody I wouldn't talk Bills with on a daily basis). I said I don't think that picking McGahee and wasting a year on that was a good idea, and he said "I'm not sure of that, either, but if Tom Donahoe thinks it's a good idea, then I think it's a good idea!" And, I agreed that that is probably right........That is how highly thought of he was at that point by just about everybody. (For the reasons you stated) Two years later, everybody hated him and he was fired!
DrDawkinstein Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 You know I disagree with you on Newton, but the rest of this is spot-on. Green Bay, despite a bit of turnover in coaching staffs, has been a relative model of stability. Even with Losman they would have put him in a better position for success. I don't necessarily think he would have succeeded, but the percentages are in favor of a franchise like the Packers, compared to the Bills. Yeah, JP would have gone to a stable franchise, with a stable coaching staff and Offense. He would have had time to learn, and maybe get his head into the pro game, instead of being thrown in and having to deal with our "geniuses" and multiple OCs during his stay here. The trick to developing players and building a team is not only picking talented players, but more importantly giving them a good, stable place to learn and develop. The Bills have not had that in over 15 years. Hopefully, with what Nix and Gailey (and now Wanny) are doing, we can get there someday.
Ozymandius Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 That's a great point, GG. I think about how we lost out on Rodgers because of Losman all the time.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Actually - look back to the last Steelers game of the previous season. Cowher essentially threw that game - handing a regulation ending FG to the Ravens and sending the game to overtime - thus allowing the Steelers to draft several spots higher than they would have - including the jump over the Bills to a lower spot... all for the reason of taking a QB ahead of the Bills. I'm 100% convinced of this. Near the 2 minute warning, Cowher decided to go for it on 4th and 1 on HIS OWN 40 YARD LINE. Essentially handing the tying FG to the the Ravens if they didn't make it. What coach would make this decision - knowing that the missed 4th down conversion would essentially hand the tying points to the other team? And overtime of that game was a joke - every play looked like the Steelers were being asked to stand down. I remember watching this knowing that it was going to cost the Bills in the draft order. haha; you give Cowher too much credit. That was simply bad game-day coaching that lost that game; Cowher had his strengths, but we could be a real dope on gameday.
GaryPinC Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Yeah, JP would have gone to a stable franchise, with a stable coaching staff and Offense. He would have had time to learn, and maybe get his head into the pro game, instead of being thrown in and having to deal with our "geniuses" and multiple OCs during his stay here. The trick to developing players and building a team is not only picking talented players, but more importantly giving them a good, stable place to learn and develop. The Bills have not had that in over 15 years. Hopefully, with what Nix and Gailey (and now Wanny) are doing, we can get there someday. I don't think it would have helped JP much. He's had Sam Wyche, Mularky, Fassel, and former quarterbacks like Schonert and Van Pelt coach him. He never seemed to be able to handle the reads/quick decisions and has never showed significant improvement in his career. Despite all his athletic ability he's never been able to master the mental components and probably never will no matter what the environment. Just doesn't have it, and I had high hopes for him when we came here.
DrDawkinstein Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 I don't think it would have helped JP much. He's had Sam Wyche, Mularky, Fassel, and former quarterbacks like Schonert and Van Pelt coach him. He never seemed to be able to handle the reads/quick decisions and has never showed significant improvement in his career. Despite all his athletic ability he's never been able to master the mental components and probably never will no matter what the environment. Just doesn't have it, and I had high hopes for him when we came here. Sure, sure, he most likely wouldve flamed out in Green Bay too. But there is no denying that Green Bay was a much better situation for a rookie QB to go to. You site all of those coaches that Losman worked with here. What that really translates to is getting a new boss, and new philosophy, and new methods, every year. I think youll find that players (especially QBs) flourish when they only have to deal with ONE coach and ONE system. Obviously, with Losman and Edwards the talent wasnt there. But the way the organization was run, gave them no chance to work through it and develop.
The Cincinnati Kid Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Peyton Manning has had Tom Moore in Indianapolis his whole career. I know he is a "consualtant" now, but he is still on the sidelines with a headset on. Manning and Moore and are the definition of stability in the NFL.
GaryPinC Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Sure, sure, he most likely wouldve flamed out in Green Bay too. But there is no denying that Green Bay was a much better situation for a rookie QB to go to. You site all of those coaches that Losman worked with here. What that really translates to is getting a new boss, and new philosophy, and new methods, every year. I think youll find that players (especially QBs) flourish when they only have to deal with ONE coach and ONE system. Obviously, with Losman and Edwards the talent wasnt there. But the way the organization was run, gave them no chance to work through it and develop. You're right, it's a great point and I used to view JP that way. I guess I look at the fact that Wyche, Mularky and Fassel have reputations of being able to develop quarterbacks, I remember reading that Wyche was working JP on a 4 second timer in pre-season, trying to speed up his decision making process. These coaches and others in Seattle and Oakland have thus far failed with JP. JP's been around the league long enough and worked with enough respected coaches that I chalk it up to him not being good enough even in a stable environment. As far as Trent, Lee Evans didn't seem to like him from day 1 and I think it's because Trent had no ability to throw his receivers open nor spot throw them the ball and allow them to make a play around the DB. Too mechanical, robotic and he's a bit younger so maybe he can improve, in which case you can chalk it up to his new environment. Sad irony that we drafted 2 early round QB's in a row with great physical talent that can't handle the mental aspects of the NFL game. At this point I can't blame the coaching turnover for that, though I agree that giving a rookie QB stable coaching, environment, and time on the bench to adjust to the NFL before going in is the best way to do it.
BuffOrange Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) Doesnt matter if we got Ben, Aaron, or JP. The coaching staffs we went through, the horrible lines, and this team in general, would have ruined all 3 careers. NO rookie qb could have come onto this team in 04-05 and started right away, and been successful. Rodgers had how many years to sit behind Favre and learn? I know it was too many, but it was still a lot more than he would have gotten here. This is why I do not have a problem with the Bills drafting Newton at #3 this year. Get him now, and let him sit behind Fitz for a year (or two). Don't get a QB and throw him into the fire and ruin him like theyve done everyone else. A specific player's career is not transferable to other teams. Every player's success or failure is situational to the team he goes to. You know I disagree with you on Newton, but the rest of this is spot-on. Green Bay, despite a bit of turnover in coaching staffs, has been a relative model of stability. Even with Losman they would have put him in a better position for success. I don't necessarily think he would have succeeded, but the percentages are in favor of a franchise like the Packers, compared to the Bills. Complete nonsense. Why isn't there a smart franchise out there who recognizes JP could be great in their system? "GB is a model of stability despite coaching turnover"? You might as well say "they've lucked out that their last 2 QBs have been awesome". Edited January 24, 2011 by BuffOrange
DrDawkinstein Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Complete nonsense. Why isn't there a smart franchise out there who recognizes JP could be great in their system? "GB is a model of stability despite coaching turnover"? You might as well say "they've lucked out that their last 2 QBs have been awesome". Like the Champion Las Vegas Locos?!? lol At this point, 6+ years later, the damage is done. No one said "If he went to Green Bay, he'd be great", only that "Any rookie QB who would have been brought onto the Bills in 04 or 05, most likely would not have succeeded". There is a difference. Sure, anything can happen, but the point is that this team was a mess back then so even if we had drafted Rodgers or Big Ben, they would probably not be the superstars they are today. Given the mess of Olines and OC's we've gone through.
Bob in STL Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Actually - look back to the last Steelers game of the previous season. Cowher essentially threw that game - handing a regulation ending FG to the Ravens and sending the game to overtime - thus allowing the Steelers to draft several spots higher than they would have - including the jump over the Bills to a lower spot... all for the reason of taking a QB ahead of the Bills. I'm 100% convinced of this. Near the 2 minute warning, Cowher decided to go for it on 4th and 1 on HIS OWN 40 YARD LINE. Essentially handing the tying FG to the the Ravens if they didn't make it. What coach would make this decision - knowing that the missed 4th down conversion would essentially hand the tying points to the other team? And overtime of that game was a joke - every play looked like the Steelers were being asked to stand down. I remember watching this knowing that it was going to cost the Bills in the draft order. yeah, that bad Cowher.
Recommended Posts