What happened to Ralph Wilson?

[buffalo1983]

I agree that age has alot to do with it. Yes Ralph might be a smart business man,but when you turn old,your head isn't all the way their and im sure being at that age and no able to move around like he us to,is taking a number on him.

 

With that said... SELL THE DAMN TEAM TO SOMEONE THAT CARES!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shoto]

Amen!!!

 

 

quote name='offsides#76FredSmerlas' timestamp='1295403479' post='2090189']

I'm so tired of people like yourself saying Ralph is cheap. Jim Kelly and Bruce Smith were drafted and he paid them because they performed. The reason it looks like he doesn't pay free agents is because no free agent wants to come here. Free agents want to join winners or teams that are in warm weathered cities and not worn down pit holes like Buffalo. I spent 27 years in Buffalo and it doesn't have much to offer other than great people. The bottom line is the Bills drafted well in the 80's and because we had a good nucleus of players "thank you Polian/Butler" other players who were free agents wanted to play here. Bryce Paup, James Loften, and guys like Sam Adams wanted to come to Buffalo because they knew we had a team that could compete. Ralph Wilson will pay guys to come here but you can't force them to come when you are not winning. Also, as far as coaching goes: there were many years when Ralph went after the top coordinator such as Mike Mularkey and Greg williams. Is it his fault they couldn't get the job done? He also had guys like Wade Phillips and Chuck Knox who were coaches who had previous success. By the way this year he tried and went after all the big names, Gruden, Cowher, Shanahan, etc... Insiders were saying RW would have spent the bank to get one of them but guess what "they didn't want to come to a team with no talent". THE CURE------>start drafting better and Ralph will pay for all the missing pieces.

[Buftex]

That's the best statistic I've read here on this board...

 

 

If I did my math right, in their 51 year existence, the Bills have finished .500 or better, 25 times, making the playoffs 17 different years...so depending on how you deifine "good", it is actually a litttle more than 25% of the time...just sayin...

[Buftex]

What was worse than Donohoe was the fact that when he fired him, he brought in an incompetent Marv Levy.

 

I think that I understand why he did that. Mr. Wilson trusts Marv, and has memories of him being a part of a winning team. Also, he properly assessed that Marv would kindle fan interest, in other words sell seats.

 

Levy was a disaster, to include his draft picks, free agent signings, and coaching staff. This is what we are fighting to purge ourselves of now. The next time you see a thread of Donte Whitner and his tweets, think Marv Levy.

 

I may be in the minority on this, but I think hiring Marv as GM was far more disasterous than anything Donohoe did, other than break the owners trust. We all realize, I think, Marv was more of a figurehead as a GM, so, we had two years of him, and then two more of the "triumverent"...so, in effect, the Bills were a ship without oars for 4 years. That is a lot of lost time for a franchise...

 

Donohoe wasn't a huge success with the Bills, but he wasn't a total failure either. I am encouraged, so far, by the Nix/Gailey regime, but I can think of few things that were done right during the Levy/braintrust era. I can't help but feel, if Donohoe had been kept around, we wouldn't be talking about a decades long play-off drought. For 4 years, nobody was really accountable for anything that went wrong. Say what you will about TD, but he was not complacent.

[tombstone56]

I remember reading an article around 1988 and I can't remember which print media it was so for obvious reasons I'm paraphrasing but it was about a friend of Ralph's that had asked him back in the mid 80's if he cared about turning his team into a winner and Ralph said something like "someday" and his friend replied why not now? He went on to open his pocket book to players that demanded the highest of salaries in the NFL. Players like Kelly, Smith, Bennett. I sent Ralph a long letter in 2002 thanking him for all he had done for the Bills and keeping them in Buffalo. The Bills had just signed Bledsoe. He or someone in his office actually wrote me back telling me what an honor it had been to own a team in western NY and it was signed by Ralph. I still have the letter, but what changed? What turned him back into the owner I watched and read about in the 1970's? I know some of you will argue he still spends money, but he doesn't want to pay top coaches or top players any longer. He has gone back to treating the Bills as a business only. The front office is poorly run again. What changed I wonder. Free agency didn't help but the fact remains if Ralph wanted a winner we would have one.

 

the answer is simple he quit trusting his gm and proplayer personal decisions ie tom donahue and john guy...and he was right!!!!

[Hplarrm]

Tremendous post. Every once in a while someone writes an exceptional post. This qualifies as one of the elite responses. Your basic point is that Ralph Wilson was involved in almost all the key organizational decisions. The results speak for itself.

 

I have one correction. When John Butler was fired for not agreeing to an extension (he was tired of working for Ralph) A.J. Smith was asked to take over. Mr. Smith told Ralph to go to hell. Ralph then fired Smith.

It is also worth adding to a recitation of the real events which describe the Wilson reign:

 

1. When the Bills relationship with Wade Phillips ended his firing was completely justified as Wade publicly declared the season over when the team still had a mathmatic possibility of making the playoffs (a fact brought into stark relief when an Indy team with the exact same record at the point Wade cryed No Mas did make the playoffs that year).

 

However, though the firing was justified it was also clear contractually that if Mr. Ralph canned Wage even if Wade was a poor competitor that he was owed the rest of his contract. Mr. Ralph foolishly went forward anyway and despite folks widely telling him he was gonna lose the appeal to the NFL he forced the league to make him pay.

 

1. The discussion was not public so who know for sure (besides Larry Felser and members of the HOF selection committee) but I do wonder what the reason was for Mr. Ralph being denied membership in the HOF for a long time. My guess is that Mr. Ralph deliberately flaunted the salary cap in making a handshake deal which only he could make with Jimbo (the Ralph simply signs the checks arguments are silly here and likely elsewhere also).

 

Mr, Ralph does deserve credit and props for keeping the team here when he almost certainly could have pulled an Art Modell and moved the team with big profit. However, along with acknowledgment of the good also needs to come admission that he really butchered his team in so many ways.

[K-9]

...However, though the firing was justified it was also clear contractually that if Mr. Ralph canned Wage even if Wade was a poor competitor that he was owed the rest of his contract. Mr. Ralph foolishly went forward anyway and despite folks widely telling him he was gonna lose the appeal to the NFL he forced the league to make him pay...

 

I'm not suggesting RW handled the Wade P firing with any class as he should have just paid the man.

 

But WP wasn't fired for not being competitive, he was fired for insubordination, in which case and in accordance with NFL rules, RW technically wouldn't have to pay him. RW took a shot and missed. That's all.

 

Ralph has fired coaches in the past and paid them each time. The latest being Jauron. He was genuinely miffed at Philips for failing to follow a directive.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[GG]

I have one correction. When John Butler was fired for not agreeing to an extension (he was tired of working for Ralph) A.J. Smith was asked to take over. Mr. Smith told Ralph to go to hell. Ralph then fired Smith.

 

That could be, but my recollection was that when Smith finished out the year as interim GM, he made it known that he was interested in getting the permanent gig. RW wanted to go outside and jumped at TD when he became available. That ticked of Smith (not hard to do) and he's held a grudge vs Wilson ever since. That's my memory of it.

[Lurker]

he doesn't have a lot left in the tank.

Neither does TSW, based on 90% of the threads/posts...

[JohnC]

1. The discussion was not public so who know for sure (besides Larry Felser and members of the HOF selection committee) but I do wonder what the reason was for Mr. Ralph being denied membership in the HOF for a long time. My guess is that Mr. Ralph deliberately flaunted the salary cap in making a handshake deal which only he could make with Jimbo (the Ralph simply signs the checks arguments are silly here and likely elsewhere also).

 

There were legitimate reasons why it took a long time to convince the HOF voters to elect Wilson into the HOF. Ralph Wilson was not considered to be one of the exceptional owners in the league.

 

From what I have read and heard from others is that Larry Felser strongly and convncingly argued that Ralph should be elected on the basis of being one of the main founders of the AFL and also very instrumental in the merger of the NFL and AFL. On that basis he did deserve to be inducted, at least in my view.

 

Mr, Ralph does deserve credit and props for keeping the team here when he almost certainly could have pulled an Art Modell and moved the team with big profit. However, along with acknowledgment of the good also needs to come admission that he really butchered his team in so many ways.

 

Prior to moving the Browns to Baltimore Art Modell was on the expansion and relocation committee. From that vantage point he saw that the competing cities were making rich offers to entice franchises to move. Modell simply got greedy and went for the better deal. The irony is that in Baltimore Modell got financially squeezed and had to sell some shares of the team and the right to purchase to Buschetti (sic) in order to get a much needed cash infusion for the franchise.

 

Now, for the rest of his life and after he is laid in the ground Art Modell is going to be known for his ignominous relocation of the Cleveland franchise to Baltimore. I hope Ralph considers his legacy and reputation in his arrangements.

[thewildrabbit]

I may be in the minority on this, but I think hiring Marv as GM was far more disastrous than anything Donohoe did, other than break the owners trust. We all realize, I think, Marv was more of a figurehead as a GM, so, we had two years of him, and then two more of the "triumverent"...so, in effect, the Bills were a ship without oars for 4 years. That is a lot of lost time for a franchise...

 

Donohoe wasn't a huge success with the Bills, but he wasn't a total failure either. I am encouraged, so far, by the Nix/Gailey regime, but I can think of few things that were done right during the Levy/brain trust era. I can't help but feel, if Donohoe had been kept around, we wouldn't be talking about a decades long play-off drought. For 4 years, nobody was really accountable for anything that went wrong. Say what you will about TD, but he was not complacent.

While Marv really screwed the pooch in his hiring of Dick Jauron, that was his real fatal flaw. My take is after he realized that he was limited in his power and more of a figurehead he stepped down, I don't blame Levy for all the Jauron blunders, I blame the owner.

 

Marv started the team in the right direction, he hired Jauron who was an Ivy league grad like him and had previous NFL HCing experience. At first glance it seemed like the right move, but little did Marv know that the power in the org would move away from him and toward Jauron. It looked to me like Ralph Wilson started to trust Jauron more then Levy, it explains why when Levy quit that he let Jauon become de facto HC/GM.

 

 

At first, Levy brought in an understudy of Mike Martz "greatest show on turf" OC in Steve Fairchild ,which was a good move until Fairchild quit for a college HC gig and Jauron promoted QB coach Turk Schonert to replace him. C'mon, that guy had no business being an OC, he isn't even in the NFL anymore. I think he was prompted to promote from within by the owner. Anyway, what Marv may or may not have known is that Fairchild while named OC of the Rams was a figurehead, MM called the offensive plays and set up the game plans.

 

 

Marv built up the O line with free agents which really was a good move, up until the 20+ year veteran O line coach Jim McNally retired and the O line went to hell. Again, instead of hiring an experienced O line coach, he promotes from within. That new O line coach got Trent Edwards concussed in Arizona. The Bills really lacked a dominate center the entire time Jauron was in Buffalo, they should have passed on Whitner and traded back to draft C Nick Mangold

 

Everything that happened under the Marv Levy / Dick Jauron era falls under the responsibility of the president of the organization, he is the one who gave Jauron the power.

 

 

 

 

 

PS when an old person no longer has the ability to function safely behind the steering wheel of an automobile he is forced to give up his drivers license. It is time for Ole ralphie to surrender his keys to the Bills, hire a real president like Bill Polian / Ozzie Newsome and sit back and watch them win

Edited January 19, 2011 by Harvey lives

[JohnC]

While Marv really screwed the pooch in his hiring of Dick Jauron, that was his real fatal flaw. My take is after he realized that he was limited in his power and more of a figurehead he stepped down, I don't blame Levy for all the Jauron blunders, I blame the owner.

 

Marv started the team in the right direction, he hired Jauron who was an Ivy league grad like him and had previous NFL HCing experience. At first glance it seemed like the right move, but little did Marv know that the power in the org would move away from him and toward Jauron. It looked to me like Ralph Wilson started to trust Jauron more then Levy, it explains why when Levy quit that he let Jauon become de facto HC/GM.

 

There was a reason why Marv became a figurehead. He was simply in over his head. He was totally befuddled. There was no way he could lead the organization because his knowledge base of the league and the players was zilch. When asked what his responsibilities were he stated that he was primarily a conciliator. There was no way that the congenial Marv could offer any legitimate opinion on draft selections or personnel moves with Jauron, Guy or Modrak because he simply lacked any knowledge of the player pool in the draft or NFL.

 

Ralph Wilson hiring Marv Levy was not only a desperate hire by an incompetent owner it was an insane hire. What fool would turn over his billion $$$ football operation to a man who was out of the league for five years, and even worse during his football hiatus didn't keep in touch in a meaningful way with the league.

 

Marv is a man of dignity. He knew that coming back to the organization was a mistake. There comes a point where faking a job is very stressful. Marv did the right thing in leaving. He also did the wrong thing in accepting the job he was unqualified for from an owner who is even more out of touch.

 

PS when an old person no longer has the ability to function safely behind the steering wheel of an automobile he is forced to give up his drivers license. It is time for Ole ralphie to surrender his keys to the Bills, hire a real president like Bill Polian / Ozzie Newsome and sit back and watch them win

 

Have you ever tried arguing with a stubborn 92 yr old? Forget about it.

[thewildrabbit]

There was a reason why Marv became a figurehead. He was simply in over his head. He was totally befuddled. There was no way he could lead the organization because his knowledge base of the league and the players was zilch. When asked what his responsibilities were he stated that he was primarily a conciliator. There was no way that the congenial Marv could offer any legitimate opinion on draft selections or personnel moves with Jauron, Guy or Modrak because he simply lacked any knowledge of the player pool in the draft or NFL.

 

Ralph Wilson hiring Marv Levy was not only a desperate hire by an incompetent owner it was an insane hire. What fool would turn over his billion $$$ football operation to a man who was out of the league for five years, and even worse during his football hiatus didn't keep in touch in a meaningful way with the league.

 

Marv is a man of dignity. He knew that coming back to the organization was a mistake. There comes a point where faking a job is very stressful. Marv did the right thing in leaving. He also did the wrong thing in accepting the job he was unqualified for from an owner who is even more out of touch.

 

 

 

Have you ever tried arguing with a stubborn 92 yr old? Forget about it.

I think Marv only came to Buffalo with the thought of returning to the sideline, once he realized that he would have to sit in an office while having no real power, he left.

 

While you paint a picture of Levy looking like a bum trying to do brain sugerey.... Marv Levy had an astute eye for talent and coaches and a hella lot more football acumen then anyone in the Buffalo Bills organization, then and now! This was the HC that hired Ted Marchibroda and Wade Phillips, found players like Steve Tasker off waivers. He helped build one of the best special teams ever in pro football. If Marv had done the drafting during his GM years he probably would have done a better job then the morons who actually did the drafting.

 

You forget that the current president is said to be on the phone to his HC daily, and micro manages the team from his home in Detroit. Everyone wants to blame Levy / Jauron, but the real culprit is the owner who can't stop meddling

[JohnC]

I think Marv only came to Buffalo with the thought of returning to the sideline, once he realized that he would have to sit in an office while having no real power, he left.

 

While you paint a picture of Levy looking like a bum trying to do brain sugerey.... Marv Levy had an astute eye for talent and coaches and a hella lot more football acumen then anyone in the Buffalo Bills organization, then and now! This was the HC that hired Ted Marchibroda and Wade Phillips, found players like Steve Tasker off waivers. He helped build one of the best special teams ever in pro football. If Marv had done the drafting during his GM years he probably would have done a better job then the morons who actually did the drafting.

 

You forget that the current president is said to be on the phone to his HC daily, and micro manages the team from his home in Detroit. Everyone wants to blame Levy / Jauron, but the real culprit is the owner who can't stop meddling

 

 

I'm not trying to smear a good and decent man. But there is no doubt that Levy was grossly unqualified for the hollow GM position he assumed. Yes, you are very correct that Levy tried to get the HC job back. When he publicly stated his interest in the position the owner EMPHATICALLY and PUBLICLY said no.

 

The person who assembled the personnel for the championship era team was Bill Polian. Marv was the right person to coach those very strong personalities during their magical SB run. But in truth, Marv was a delagator. That is not a criticism of him. He was the right type of HC for the time. ML was secure enough to bring in good coaches and give them the authority to act. The primary area he was very involved with was the special teams.

 

If you have read any of my many postings you will know that the person I most blame for this very failed and flawed franchise is its owner. So you and I are in accord on that issue.

[seq004]

Thank you in many ways for backing up what I said in my first write up. Jim Kelly had the highest QB salary in the league when he signed and Bruce Smith was signed as the highest paid defensive player. Ralph has never been a cheap owner. By the way, the Bills didn't pay for Bruce Smith before we drafted him; that's just an insane line of crap. You and I also agree that free agents want to come to a winning organization. I didn't call Buffalo a shithole, those were your words but it's not a city where most would want to live. You would have to be blind if you haven't noticed the decline of the population in Buffalo in the last 20 years. I love Buffalo because it's where I'm from and I have a lot of family and friends there but if I wasn't from Buffalo I would never in a million years move there. Now, if I was a player in the NFL and I could go to Buffalo for a few years of my life and have a shot at going to the playoffs then that's a different story. But as we know that hasn't been the case in 11 years. Pittsburgh is similar to Buffalo as a city but because their team wins, free agents will move there and play for the Steelers. You also brought up Green Bay a team that went 3 decades without winning and because they drafted well now they get free agents. Hell if you can just draft a top QB and he performs at a high level you can get players to your team. Green Bay has Aaron Rodgers and that my friend brings hope every year.

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2010/8/1/1578327/august-1-1985-frank-reich-ends

An insane line of crap? If telling the truth is a line of crap then what you said is???

Do a little research. You might want to actually get your facts straight BEFORE posting. Bruce signed his contract before the Bills made him the number 1 pick in 1985 Also you called Buffalo a "not worn down pit holes like Buffalo" so yeah I quess thats better than calling it a ####hole Ralph has the reputation throughout the entire NFL for becoming a cheap owner and while he did play players like Smith and Kelly the very BEST contracts at that time he reverted back to his old ways. He no longer pays for PROVEN FO and coaches. Free agents like Paup and Speilman came here on the heals of 4 AFC rings and wanted to play for a winner and Ralph payed them well for it, but again thats when he payed to be a winner. Its reality. Accept it. You'll sleep better. I only hope Jim Kelly and Billy Shaw aren't blowing smoke because new ownership is our only hope.

Edited January 20, 2011 by seq004

[benderbender]

I just saw Ralph on ESPN talking about how Jason Campbell is a good quarterback. Wait, you mean that was Al Davis? I couldn't tell the difference between ancient, out of touch owners who are suffocating their teams. My mistake

[Hplarrm]

I'm not trying to smear a good and decent man. But there is no doubt that Levy was grossly unqualified for the hollow GM position he assumed. Yes, you are very correct that Levy tried to get the HC job back. When he publicly stated his interest in the position the owner EMPHATICALLY and PUBLICLY said no.

 

The person who assembled the personnel for the championship era team was Bill Polian. Marv was the right person to coach those very strong personalities during their magical SB run. But in truth, Marv was a delagator. That is not a criticism of him. He was the right type of HC for the time. ML was secure enough to bring in good coaches and give them the authority to act. The primary area he was very involved with was the special teams.

 

If you have read any of my many postings you will know that the person I most blame for this very failed and flawed franchise is its owner. So you and I are in accord on that issue.

As best as I can tell Marv was about the ONLY person who was qualified to take the job which was offered. This job was to oversee the rubble that was left after Mr. Ralph:

 

1. Fired the best GM in football who most agree deserves the primary credit among many for building the Buffalo Bills early 90s juggernaut. As best as I can tell, I'm not sure whether the blame lies more with Polian for being insubordinate to his boss or Mr. Ralph for not realizing for football purposes Polian was gonna GM a team to ab SB win sooner or later and if he wanted an SB win for the Bills primarily to win an SB then keeping Polian would be a good move.

 

Either way, Marv took a GM job which had a history of the owner and a great GM not making it work.

 

2. Add to this, that the relationship between Mr. Ralph and Butler proved to be so toxic (again blame whichever man you want or blame both, it is clear the Mr. Ralph is developing a record of having such bad relationships with his primary employee that the working relationship did not work) it hurt the team big time.

 

3. Next we have TD where once again the relationship proved to be so bad TD got canned.

 

Once is an incident. Twice may well be a co-incidence. The third time Mr. Ralph proved incapable of having a productive relationship with his GM, there is a good case to be made that what we have here is a trend.

 

Enter Marv as the next GM/ My sense is that given the difficulties Mr. Ralph was having simply having productive working relationships with his GM that Marv was likely the only person with the track record of at least having a tolerable relationship with the man in charge (and Mr. Ralph even fired him) I am not sure who else would be more qualified to survive, be awarded the job or take it if offered.

 

In fact, what happened seemed to bear this out. Marv was on record saying what he wanted (the HC job) but right or wrong Mr. Ralph could not successfully manage the relationship such that Marv did not walk. If you want to question whether this is all Marv's fault, merely look at the next GM he hire -- No one.

 

The look at who interviewed for the job the next season but seemed to turn it down for reasons we do not know Shanahan and Cowher.

 

If you want to maintain that Marv was in over his head, so be it However, it is not unreasonable to ask if this is your contention who should we have hired instead and even if offered who would take the job (clearly not Shananhan or Cowher.

 

I actually agree with you that Marv was in over his head, but oddly even though this is true as best as I can tell he was the best man available for the job of working with an owner who:

 

1. Had three straight toxic relationships with his GN (again without regard to who was at fault in any of these cases the owner either fired these men stupidly or was stupid enough to hire guys who deserved to be fired.

 

2. Add to the toxic GM relationships the fact that he ended up losing an appeal to not pay an HC he canned (again either it was stupid firing or a stupid hiring of a guy so bad he deserved to be fired with time left on his contract- those are really the only two choices.

 

3. Again, for whatever reason, Mr. Ralph was kept out of the HOF when he clearly seemed to deserve it either for simply being there when the AFL was established or being the owner of a singular team which went to 4 straight SBs (a great achievement even with the losses.

 

It make little sense to me that you would point a finger at Marv without an at least an acknowledgment that the 4 other fingers should be pointing at Mr. Ralph.

 

After all there is a clear record of over a decade of failure to make the playoffs. How many of these do you blame on Marv and who was pivotally involved in all 10+?

[jumbalaya]

The Bills have only been good about 25 percent of the time since they were founded

Not unlike most teams.

[Buftex]

Not unlike most teams.

 

By the numbers:

 

51 seasons total

25 seasons with a record of .500 or better (20 seasons with winning record, 5 with a .500 record)

17 appearences in the playoffs

357-407-8 regular season record

14-15 playoff record

2 AFL Championships

4 AFC Championships

10 Division Championships

9* Hall of Famers (7 players, 1 owner....*8 players if you include James Lofton)

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buftex

[Buftex]

By the numbers:

 

51 seasons total

25 seasons with a record of .500 or better (20 seasons with winning record, 5 with a .500 record)

17 appearences in the playoffs

357-407-8 regular season record

14-15 playoff record

2 AFL Championships

4 AFC Championships

10 Division Championships

9* Hall of Famers (7 players, 1 owner....*8 players if you include James Lofton)

 

Sorry, the franchise record is actually 358-406-8

 

So, as a franchise, they have about a 41% win percentage regular season (about 42% if you include playoffs)

....and they have a winning record about 40% of the time...I make no promises on my math...never too good with percentages!

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buftex