What happened to Ralph Wilson?

[Hplarrm]

You and I and some others are in the minority on this topic (his GM stint). What seems so obvious to me draws a counter view that I am not only insane but also a merchant of hatred. Maybe the true believers are right that the Bills lose simply because the are unlucky and there is a consipiracy against them. LOL

I think some of the folks you may view as Marv defender actually do not feel positively at all about his 2 years as GM (how could anyone feel good about it as the results produced in the two years were mediocre at best and the result after he was done as GM was basically a melt down),

 

However, where I think folks (and I know it is true of me) is that while yes the Bills were an unmitigated disaster that crashed into the canyon floor, that the actual fault for this crash and burn was Ralph jumping off the cliff over a decade ago with his mismanagement of the Polian/Butler/TD situations.

 

One can blame Marv if one chooses for his flapping of the Bills wings failing to stop the flaming carcass of the Bills from hitting the canyon floor. However, this analysis simply incorrectly focuses on Marv's term when fatal mistakes not worth glossing over with a focus on Marv.

 

In my view Marv needs no defending actually. He deserved the HOF nod for being HC of a phenomenal football team in the early 90s. His failed stint as GM obviously does not add to his glory, but also does not detract from the facts on the ground of achievements of the early 90s.

 

I think by far the most significant thing about Marv's GM stint is that it is a pretty straightforward demonstration that Ralph bollicks things so badly that the best he could do at GM was to find a senior citizen beyond his best years to take this highly desirable job. In fact, Ralph managed things so badly that when Marv left he could not or would not find someone to be GM.

 

This is the story. Finding fault with Marv is not insane just silly.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill I think you have it backwards. The biggest problem with Levy's tenure is that he wasn't a real GM of the team.

 

People still get fixated on the title, same as with Brandon, when it's becoming more clear that the leadership void left after TD's departure is what's responsible for questionable personnel moves and the failures of the last 5 years.

 

Because Levy was out of touch with the league & the players when he came back it's hard to argue that he was the one pushing for the Whitner pick & trading for McCargo. Because there was no real accountability and no central direction to rebuild the roster, the personnel decisions do not appear to have been coordinated very well. You can blame Levy all you want, but he was a GM without much decision making ability and was only brought in to restore Wilson's control of the football operations.

 

One cannot make a valid case in terms of stating that this mess (in terms of winning football games) is not ultimately the fault of Mr. Wilson. I think was annoys me just a bit is the number of people who give Marv a free pass.

 

Even if he had NO say (which wasn't the case), he brought in and empowered Jauron, a known failure. Again, I HEARD Marv say that he turned down more than a second round pick in a trade down in order to draft Whitner. I doubt that Mr. Wilson made that particular call, whereas safeties don't sell so many seats, as compared to offensive skill positions.

 

In any event, nice guy or not, Marv was clearly incompetent. But it's true; it wasn't his fault that he was hired. Just as it wasn't Dockery's fault that he was given a 48 million dollar contract, or Whitner's for being drafted at #8, etc.

[thewildrabbit]

You need to go back and read what I have stated. There is no doubt that the owner is the source of the franchise's historical mediocrity. No one can dispute something that is so blatantly obvious.

 

I don't know where you and I disagree with respect to Marv. Marv Levy was grossly unqualified for his fake GM position. Marv's short tenure was an unmitigated disaster which is going to take years to rectify. How can anyone disagree with something that is so apparent? Marv Levy is a wonderful person. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be held accountable for a job that he held.

 

I can disagree, I asked in an earlier post for you to point out exactly what decisions Marv levy made alone that he should be held accountable for (aside from the hiring of Dick Jauron). You never did respond to that question... so I can only think you don't know of any, and just want to bash Marv!

I blame the owner / president and his allowing Dick Jauron to be de facto GM during his four years of failure, basically everything Marv Levy did in his 2 years, Jauron tore apart after he left.

 

 

 

My opinion is that Marv was asked to join the Bills as GM because the owner wanted some guidance from a trusted source, I also don't believe he had very much power in the 2 years he was GM. Like I stated earlier, that during the drafts while he was in the org as GM he didn't make the draft selections, he just gave his opinion, and allowed Dick Jauron to make them!

 

http://www.nfl.com/n...late=with-video

 

""Levy's role as GM was relatively undefined, although he provided input on the team's draft and personnel decisions, consulted with Jauron and stayed in close contact with Wilson, who lives in suburban Detroit.

 

He had a mostly hands-off approach in contract talks, leaving that to team vice president Jim Overdorf.""

 

 

From Ralph Wilson: "I will always be grateful for his service," Wilson said. "When we needed new focus and direction, Marv improved our organization's morale, attitude and environment: All of that, plus the stability we needed to move forward."

 

 

Furthermore, Dick Vermeil was out of the NFL for a number of (15) years as a broadcaster / announcer, then returned to the sideline as HC for the St Louis Rams, and took them to a super bowl. I don't see how Marv was " so out of touch" with the NFL considering he was doing broadcasting for ESPN in Chicago, covering the Bears before he was hired as GM.

 

 

 

PS.I have no deep love for Marv as he made critical mistakes as HC of the Bills and GM, I totally blame Marv for hiring the wrong guy in Dick Jauron, there is no question he royally screwed the pooch with that move. I can also recall Levy stating that when he was interviewing candidates for the HC job that ex-GB Packer HC Mike Sherman had given an interview that "knocked his socks off" Looking at the coaching history between Jauron and Sherman I never did understand the hiring of Jauron

Edited January 20, 2011 by Harvey lives

[JohnC]

I can disagree, I asked in an earlier post for you to point out exactly what decisions ]Marv levy made alone that he should be held accountable for (aside from the hiring of Dick Jauron). You never did respond to that question... so I can only think you don't know of any, and just want to bash Marv!

I blame the owner / president and his allowing Dick Jauron to be de facto GM during his four years of failure, basically everything Marv Levy did in his 2 years, Jauron tore apart after he left.

 

Marv Levy rarely acted alone. The system he was involved in was a diffused system in which there was little accountability. What the heck was his role? Being a glad hander? As a GM or whatever role he had the results are that this archaic franchise was set back further during his stint. The person who was most responsible for the Jauron hire was Levy. The owner favored Sherman, but he deferred to Levy. Isn't that bad enough for you? During Levy's short stint Jauron was given more authority on personnel and he was given an extension. Do you consider that a wise decision?

 

The argument you and others are basically making is that Levy had little authority so he can't be blamed for the insanity and chaos coming out of the organization, the same one he was brought in to work in. If he can't be accountable for the multitude of bad decisions, then what the hell was he doing? Drinking coffee all day? Signing autographs? One of the major failings of this organization is no one is accountable for anything. The organization is an opaque organization because there is no understandable line of authority. Modrak has been the chief scout for the dismal decade. But since no one knows who is really making the picks then he is allowed to avoid responsibility for one of the worst drafting teams in the league. Where was Marv? If Jauron wanted Whitner when Ngata was available why didn't Marv to Jauron, hell no. Marv couldn't compete with the personnel and staffing units because he was clueless. I'm not trying to be mean to this very nice man but to be charitable he was ineffective.

 

 

 

My opinion is that Marv was asked to join the Bills as GM because the owner wanted some guidance from a trusted source, I also don't believe he had very much power in the 2 years he was GM. Like I stated earlier, that during the drafts while he was in the org as GM he didn't make the draft selections, he just gave his opinion, and allowed Dick Jauron to make them!

 

Tell me what guidance did he give the moronic owner? Was he the person who recommended that Jauron be given an extension and more authority in personnel? Either he gave bad advice or he was ignored by the owner. Which is worse?

 

""Levy's role as GM was relatively undefined, although he provided input on the team's draft and personnel decisions, consulted with Jauron and stayed in close contact with Wilson, who lives in suburban Detroit.

 

He had a mostly hands-off approach in contract talks, leaving that to team vice president Jim Overdorf.""

 

A simple way to characterize the above quotes is that Levy had no influence whatsoever within the organization. What was the point of even showing up for work?

 

 

From Ralph Wilson: "I will always be grateful for his service," Wilson said. "When we needed new focus and direction, Marv improved our organization's morale, attitude and environment: All of that, plus the stability we needed to move forward."

 

The Bills organization is one of the most unstable and quirky organizations in the NFl. The Bills during Marv's stint didn't move forward, it was set back by years. Nix is in the process of cleansing the roster of the garbage accumulated during his reign.

 

Furthermore, Dick Vermeil was out of the NFL for a number of (15) years as a broadcaster / announcer, then returned to the sideline as HC for the St Louis Rams, and took them to a super bowl. I don't see how Marv was " so out of touch" with the NFL considering he was doing broadcasting for ESPN in Chicago, covering the Bears before he was hired as GM.

 

Marv was absolutely out of touch. He worked as an analyst for the Bears during the preseason. Nothing more. Comparing Vermeil post hiatus record to Marv's record is an insult to Vermeil. Dick V's record speaks for itself. Marv's post retirement also speaks for itself.

 

 

 

PS.I have no deep love for Marv as he made critical mistakes as HC of the Bills and GM, I totally blame Marv for hiring the wrong guy in Dick Jauron, there is no question he royally screwed the pooch with that move. I can also recall Levy stating that when he was interviewing candidates for the HC job that ex-GB Packer HC Mike Sherman had given an interview that "knocked his socks off" Looking at the coaching history between Jauron and Sherman I never did understand the hiring of Jauron

 

And neither do I understand the hiring. That was one of his most important decisions and it had a devestating affect on the organization.

 

Many people on this board are trying to characterize my criticism of Levy as a personal assault and of smear of him. That is not the case. He is a good man who was very ineffectual in a job he was unsuited and unqualified to do. There is a reason why the Bills are historically a mediocre franchise. The owner is the main culprit for their record. No one disputes that obvious fact. The problem I have is that many people are afraid to hold people accountable within this very flawed franchise. Marv isn't the only person who has made mistakes. The list is long. Littman-Oberdor-Modrak-Jauron etc etc. are also accountable for the third rate operation of this very irrelevant franchise.

 

It doesn't have to be that way. One way to move in a positve direction is to hold people accountable for the perormances on the field and in the front office.

Edited January 20, 2011 by JohnC

[seq004]

Okay, so I'll parially give you credit on the Bruce deal but the bottom line is every time that #78 held out and cried for more money Ralph stepped up and paid him. Bruce is one of the originating whiners who started crying about a new contract before his deal was actually up; now players do it all the time. All I said was those were your words about Buffalo being a #%&*hole, which is true, but I have not once backed off about Buffalo being a terrible weather city that's run down with no employment and a population declining yearly. Like I said, I lived in Buffalo for most of my adult life and I love my family, the people, the food, and the Bills. If the Bills ever leave the city of Buffalo though, it would become a ghost town except for some hockey fans. When you travel to other cities the people always look at Buffalo as the arm pit of the US. They say, I heard the people are really nice but then they joke about our ugly city, our terrible NFL team, and our awful weather. Those are the truths Seq004, sorry if it's hard to swallow. You are funny when you talk about Ralph reverting back to old ways. Ralph has always been Ralph. He will pay top buck, although he often spends it on the wrong guys; Lee Evans, Sean Dockery, Langston Walker. There is no doubt he has made some bad decisions but he is not cheap.

No you said Buffalo is a pithole and I can't totally agree with that. I've been to a lot of places and yes I would pick some other places to settle down but again your missing the point. You brought up Green Bay and Pittsburgh, which is a complete joke. Green Bay is the frozen tundra of the NFL and its population is around 100,000 and it looks like Niagara Falls. Its not better than Buffalo. Pittsburgh's population is down to 300,000. Its very cold and its not a great city but these teams have something the Bills don't and thats good ownership, good FO. Ralph NO LONGER pays for what it takes to win. That's a fact. At one time he might have, but he has only really brought in 1 winning coach the entire ownership and that was Chuck Knox. TODAY around the rest of the league and Bills fans that deal with reality realize the front office has been a complete joke for some time now. I love the guy for keeping them in western New York an area that has its problems, but we have great fans, we are usually in the top ten in attendance even with 7-9 teams yet he runs the Bills as a business and doesn't care. Don't blame it on Buffalo. Win and prove you want to win and players will come. It happened before.

[seq004]

aka - Commitment to Mediocrity

Exactly.

[thewildrabbit]

Marv Levy rarely acted alone. The system he was involved in was a diffused system in which there was little accountability. What the heck was his role? Being a glad hander? As a GM or whatever role he had the results are that this archaic franchise was set back further during his stint. The person who was most responsible for the Jauron hire was Levy. The owner favored Sherman, but he deferred to Levy. Isn't that bad enough for you? During Levy's short stint Jauron was given more authority on personnel and he was given an extension. Do you consider that a wise decision?

 

The argument you and others are basically making is that Levy had little authority so he can't be blamed for the insanity and chaos coming out of the organization, the same one he was brought in to work in. If he can't be accountable for the multitude of bad decisions, then what the hell was he doing? Drinking coffee all day? Signing autographs? One of the major failings of this organization is no one is accountable for anything. The organization is an opaque organization because there is no understandable line of authority. Modrak has been the chief scout for the dismal decade. But since no one knows who is really making the picks then he is allowed to avoid responsibility for one of the worst drafting teams in the league. Where was Marv? If Jauron wanted Whitner when Ngata was available why didn't Marv to Jauron, hell no. Marv couldn't compete with the personnel and staffing units because he was clueless. I'm not trying to be mean to this very nice man but to be charitable he was ineffective.

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me what guidance did he give the moronic owner? Was he the person who recommended that Jauron be given an extension and more authority in personnel? Either he gave bad advice or he was ignored by the owner. Which is worse?

 

 

 

A simple way to characterize the above quotes is that Levy had no influence whatsoever within the organization. What was the point of even showing up for work?

 

 

 

 

The Bills organization is one of the most unstable and quirky organizations in the NFl. The Bills during Marv's stint didn't move forward, it was set back by years. Nix is in the process of cleansing the roster of the garbage accumulated during his reign.

 

 

 

Marv was absolutely out of touch. He worked as an analyst for the Bears during the preseason. Nothing more. Comparing Vermeil post hiatus record to Marv's record is an insult to Vermeil. Dick V's record speaks for itself. Marv's post retirement also speaks for itself.

 

 

 

 

 

And neither do I understand the hiring. That was one of his most important decisions and it had a devestating affect on the organization.

 

Many people on this board are trying to characterize my criticism of Levy as a personal assault and of smear of him. That is not the case. He is a good man who was very ineffectual in a job he was unsuited and unqualified to do. There is a reason why the Bills are historically a mediocre franchise. The owner is the main culprit for their record. No one disputes that obvious fact. The problem I have is that many people are afraid to hold people accountable within this very flawed franchise. Marv isn't the only person who has made mistakes. The list is long. Littman-Oberdor-Modrak-Jauron etc etc. are also accountable for the third rate operation of this very irrelevant franchise.

 

It doesn't have to be that way. One way to move in a positve direction is to hold people accountable for the perormances on the field and in the front office.

BLAH BLAH BLAH...

 

You hold Marv Levy accountable, accountable for WHAT EXACTLY? You say the owner favored Sherman, post a link to this complete and utter BS, because it was actually the other way around, Wilson made the choice on Jauron

 

This will be the third time I've asked for proof of your continous acusations about how unqualified Marv Levy was and all the mistakes he made as GM, show me one move he made OTHER then the Jauron hire that was harmful to the orginazition... JUST ONE!

[sllib olaffub]

It is my opinion that Wilson views the Bills as a business, that he doesn't even identify with the actual team, but rather only the profits and or losses in earnings. Or, he is an old man who has lost his touch with reality, has very misguided people in charge of advising him, and he is afraid to lose his hold on the organization by changing much or any of its structure. Perhaps a little of both.

 

One would think if he took the team's overall success personally, then he'd do whatever he could to win. He can't take wealth with him. It seems to me he'd rather spend the last years of his life watching this team he kept in Buffalo all these years turn into a Champion, than watch it slide away into mediocrity and ridicule.

That should be considered: a man owns a team its entire life - created it - and he is dying. He can take the money he has all around him and pinch pennies, and calculate profits, and watch the team that in his entire life has never been at the very top, go out in a sad state. Any of us fans - in that situation - what would we do to try to make the team a success? Not just a success, but great. I guess even at the end, for some people it is not more than a business.

 

The dysfuntion certainly begins and flows out from the owner. Sure, if it weren't for him we'd not have the team. NO doubt about that. But, there is also no doubt that he could put all his chips in on it, and he hasn't yet.

[Hplarrm]

What the heck was his role? Being a glad hander?

Amswering this question correctly is easy and it is crystal clear to me that Marv was the best (and likely only man to fulfill what was required of a Bills GM at the time.

 

Marv was hired to be GM after Mr. Ralph had been a part of 3 completely toxic relationships with three straight GMs.

 

1. He fired Polian likely over some slight of Ralph's daughter which Polian allegedly said. If Polian did trash Ralph's daughter this firing is more than justified in my eyes. However, in this testorone infused boys game where folks like Favre apparently delight in sending pictures of their junk to woman not his wife these sophomorics are apparently not unheard of even if not the norm. The big deal about this without knowing the reason is that it demonstrated that simply winning was no defense if Mr. Ralph wanted you gone. This is actually pretty unusual in the NFL where winning seems to pave pave over much stupidity.

 

2. His relationship with Butler was so bad that Butler was able to shine him on about no contract talks until after the season and then quickly jumped ship to SD leaving the Bills high and dry. I do not know what JB was paying back Ralph for but payback is a dog (it is even argued by some that JB deliberately tanked the last draft with a DE pick who never seriously played the game in Mayb... sorry Flowers.

 

3. On paper Mr. Ralph struck gold getting TD after Pitts paid him to be paid by the media and go off scouting players with a travel budget. However, Mr. Ralph ended up with an unprecedented team president who did a great job on paper moving the Bills management structure into the end of the 20th century from Ralph's 60s stylings where in the late 80s or even early 90s Will Call tickets could be found sorted in a shoebox at one window. The paper of business was great and TD was a wizard in negotiation ripping AT a new one getting a 1st for Price and actually trading drug addict con Henry for value, Yet, he sucked on the field quite often seeming to be willing to sacrifice results to make sure he did not get run out of town by a HC he hire as Cowher did in Pitts.

 

In the face of this situation THE PRIMARY role for the GM was to be someone who would be able to tolerate Mr. Ralph, but also be someone who did not evoke immediate laughter from Bills fans and the media. No one that anyone took seriously was likely to accept a GM job from Me. Ralph even though these 32 jobs are hard to come by. Most of the folks who would take the job were quite likely to be unproven idiots or good football guys but willing to get canned or storm out in a huff like the last 3 GMs.

 

You are right that Marv was grossly under qualified for being a GN (Marv knew this also and clearly wanted to be HC) but in the end he not only was clearly under qualified but also he was clearly the best man for the job.

 

Its stupid, but is real life in the world Mr. Ralph had created. I remain surprised that you allow yourself to lapse into the distracted missing of the point and making the claim that Marv set back the team by years.

 

On the face of it, Marv can not be logically blamed for the over half decade of failing to make the playoffs which occurred. Yes he does deserve the primary blame for the two years he over saw the team as GM. The results clearly show him to be mediocre at best. However, realizing that he oversaw teams that were at best producing results at the top of the lower third of the league (they routinely drafted around 8 until we found out how bad bad could be this year under the new management and them is just the facts). Your assertion that he set the team back simply is not supported by the actual results. The team was well entrenched in mediocrity when he got here and it remained entrenched in mediocrity the short time he was here (and actually got worse in terms of results when he left but the faithful have to believe it had to get worse a bit before it gets better.

 

Did Narv set the team back by years?

 

Nope, I'm sorry but this hyperbolic assertion is just not supported by the results. The team had a long history of mediocre inadequacy before he got here and continued with that inadequacy during his brief stint as GM.

 

A more rational assertion supported by the results is that Marv's time represented a 2 year delay in the horrible accounting and roster clearing which likely had to happen. A fair and balanced view based on reality would clearly fault Marv for overseeing the decision which simply did not work of trading to move up to pick McCatgo, This bust move did not work. No one should claim it did. However, reality does demand that one also recognize that in addition to failing in his oversight of the McCargo pick has to come credit for the Williams pick in the 5th round. Getting a Pro Bowl worthy player in the 5th is a pretty good pick. It does not outweigh the mistake of trading up for McCargo but it actually comes pretty close back here in reality.

 

One of the other favorite rants from folks who I think should know better based on some other intelligent posts simply maintain you do not pick a safety in the top 10. Definitely true in your grandmother's NFL, but simply a wrong piece of conventional wisdom in the current Cover 2/Tampa 2 modern NFL. In today's NFL it is players like safeties Polamalu and Sanders who arguably were just as critical to SB wins by Pitts and Indy as QBs (longtime non SB winning stud QB) Manning and rookie RoboQB.

 

Even the whine that a safety can be found on the second day simply ignores reality that Whitner was actually the second safety taken (and ironically is pretty broadly considered to have had a better rookie year than Huff taken before him) as 3 safeties were actually taken in the first round that year.

 

Whitner did not pan out. However, it would simply be wrong to label him a bust like Mike Williams or Harrington were busts. I will join folks in whining if Whitner is resigned to a big contract the market will likely give him (again back in reality safeties have value in this league). However, rather than the irrational that he set the team, back for years, the more rational he kept them mediocre for the two years he was here is supported by the results,

 

If one wants to make a real complaint, rather than being distracted by Marv's reign of stasis, a better thing to complain about is the year after Marv left which saw this rudderless GMless team with a beancounter guiding the draft which took Maybin. The simple fact is that this team needed to get worse before it got better but if anything set this team back in multiples of the time it was the GM less year that may well cost us a couple of years.

 

Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GM before and no one would accuse Marv of being a spring chicken, but given there is a good chance no one with any chops would take the job (see Shannahan and Cowher when we hired Nix) and given Mr. Ralph disastrously exercising his owners right to meddle (again one sees proof positive on his antics where he made a wrong wrong wrong handshake deal with Jimbo which only he could make (for those who want to claim the boss was just taking orders) and he was told you are wrong on the firing Wade case and many signs point to the prospect of working for Mr. Ralph being so foreboding Mularkey would not do this for multi-millions.

 

Marv clearly was inadequate as a GM, but clearly it misses the point about what is wrong with our Bills to get ones panties all up in wad about Marv when the real problem was here before him, hired him, and remains in control after he was gone.

[Bill from NYC]

Amswering this question correctly is easy and it is crystal clear to me that Marv was the best (and likely only man to fulfill what was required of a Bills GM at the time.

 

Marv was hired to be GM after Mr. Ralph had been a part of 3 completely toxic relationships with three straight GMs.

 

1. He fired Polian likely over some slight of Ralph's daughter which Polian allegedly said. If Polian did trash Ralph's daughter this firing is more than justified in my eyes. However, in this testorone infused boys game where folks like Favre apparently delight in sending pictures of their junk to woman not his wife these sophomorics are apparently not unheard of even if not the norm. The big deal about this without knowing the reason is that it demonstrated that simply winning was no defense if Mr. Ralph wanted you gone. This is actually pretty unusual in the NFL where winning seems to pave pave over much stupidity.

 

2. His relationship with Butler was so bad that Butler was able to shine him on about no contract talks until after the season and then quickly jumped ship to SD leaving the Bills high and dry. I do not know what JB was paying back Ralph for but payback is a dog (it is even argued by some that JB deliberately tanked the last draft with a DE pick who never seriously played the game in Mayb... sorry Flowers.

 

3. On paper Mr. Ralph struck gold getting TD after Pitts paid him to be paid by the media and go off scouting players with a travel budget. However, Mr. Ralph ended up with an unprecedented team president who did a great job on paper moving the Bills management structure into the end of the 20th century from Ralph's 60s stylings where in the late 80s or even early 90s Will Call tickets could be found sorted in a shoebox at one window. The paper of business was great and TD was a wizard in negotiation ripping AT a new one getting a 1st for Price and actually trading drug addict con Henry for value, Yet, he sucked on the field quite often seeming to be willing to sacrifice results to make sure he did not get run out of town by a HC he hire as Cowher did in Pitts.

 

In the face of this situation THE PRIMARY role for the GM was to be someone who would be able to tolerate Mr. Ralph, but also be someone who did not evoke immediate laughter from Bills fans and the media. No one that anyone took seriously was likely to accept a GM job from Me. Ralph even though these 32 jobs are hard to come by. Most of the folks who would take the job were quite likely to be unproven idiots or good football guys but willing to get canned or storm out in a huff like the last 3 GMs.

 

You are right that Marv was grossly under qualified for being a GN (Marv knew this also and clearly wanted to be HC) but in the end he not only was clearly under qualified but also he was clearly the best man for the job.

 

Its stupid, but is real life in the world Mr. Ralph had created. I remain surprised that you allow yourself to lapse into the distracted missing of the point and making the claim that Marv set back the team by years.

 

On the face of it, Marv can not be logically blamed for the over half decade of failing to make the playoffs which occurred. Yes he does deserve the primary blame for the two years he over saw the team as GM. The results clearly show him to be mediocre at best. However, realizing that he oversaw teams that were at best producing results at the top of the lower third of the league (they routinely drafted around 8 until we found out how bad bad could be this year under the new management and them is just the facts). Your assertion that he set the team back simply is not supported by the actual results. The team was well entrenched in mediocrity when he got here and it remained entrenched in mediocrity the short time he was here (and actually got worse in terms of results when he left but the faithful have to believe it had to get worse a bit before it gets better.

 

Did Narv set the team back by years?

 

Nope, I'm sorry but this hyperbolic assertion is just not supported by the results. The team had a long history of mediocre inadequacy before he got here and continued with that inadequacy during his brief stint as GM.

 

A more rational assertion supported by the results is that Marv's time represented a 2 year delay in the horrible accounting and roster clearing which likely had to happen. A fair and balanced view based on reality would clearly fault Marv for overseeing the decision which simply did not work of trading to move up to pick McCatgo, This bust move did not work. No one should claim it did. However, reality does demand that one also recognize that in addition to failing in his oversight of the McCargo pick has to come credit for the Williams pick in the 5th round. Getting a Pro Bowl worthy player in the 5th is a pretty good pick. It does not outweigh the mistake of trading up for McCargo but it actually comes pretty close back here in reality.

 

One of the other favorite rants from folks who I think should know better based on some other intelligent posts simply maintain you do not pick a safety in the top 10. Definitely true in your grandmother's NFL, but simply a wrong piece of conventional wisdom in the current Cover 2/Tampa 2 modern NFL. In today's NFL it is players like safeties Polamalu and Sanders who arguably were just as critical to SB wins by Pitts and Indy as QBs (longtime non SB winning stud QB) Manning and rookie RoboQB.

 

Even the whine that a safety can be found on the second day simply ignores reality that Whitner was actually the second safety taken (and ironically is pretty broadly considered to have had a better rookie year than Huff taken before him) as 3 safeties were actually taken in the first round that year.

 

Whitner did not pan out. However, it would simply be wrong to label him a bust like Mike Williams or Harrington were busts. I will join folks in whining if Whitner is resigned to a big contract the market will likely give him (again back in reality safeties have value in this league). However, rather than the irrational that he set the team, back for years, the more rational he kept them mediocre for the two years he was here is supported by the results,

 

If one wants to make a real complaint, rather than being distracted by Marv's reign of stasis, a better thing to complain about is the year after Marv left which saw this rudderless GMless team with a beancounter guiding the draft which took Maybin. The simple fact is that this team needed to get worse before it got better but if anything set this team back in multiples of the time it was the GM less year that may well cost us a couple of years.

 

Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GM before and no one would accuse Marv of being a spring chicken, but given there is a good chance no one with any chops would take the job (see Shannahan and Cowher when we hired Nix) and given Mr. Ralph disastrously exercising his owners right to meddle (again one sees proof positive on his antics where he made a wrong wrong wrong handshake deal with Jimbo which only he could make (for those who want to claim the boss was just taking orders) and he was told you are wrong on the firing Wade case and many signs point to the prospect of working for Mr. Ralph being so foreboding Mularkey would not do this for multi-millions.

 

Marv clearly was inadequate as a GM, but clearly it misses the point about what is wrong with our Bills to get ones panties all up in wad about Marv when the real problem was here before him, hired him, and remains in control after he was gone.

 

Most of the above is a teary eyed defense of a man who did an absolutely horrible job (except at destroying ny chance of winning), but I will only address some of it.

 

Whitner wasn't a bust because he wasn't as bad as Mike Williams? Is this what you think? 2006 was a star studded draft which was knee deep in very good players at positions of dire need for the Bills. Not only did he waste 3 picks on McCargo and 'Lil Donte, do you recall how he followed up this gem? Youboty and Ko Simpson. Why did you skip them and go straight to Kyle Williams? 3 of his first 4 picks consisted of defensive backs who sucked, and one that is marginal. Levy/Jauron are the only 2 fools that I have ever seen who choose to rebuild a team that is weak and sucks through the secondary. Oh...I will say yet again that they seem like nice guys.

 

You defy us to name bad things he did? How about when he made that jackass "promise" not to put the tag on Clements? Did you like that move? It set the table Jauron (his boy from Chicago) to waste yet another first rounder on McKelvin, another wasted pick.

 

He also busted out on free agents. He signed Dockery for 1 million less than Steinbach got over a 7 year deal. Problem was that Dockery sucks and Steinbach can play. Tripplet and Langston Walker were also horrible.

 

Nobody is trying to deny that Ralph is ultimately to blame, but the fact is that Levys presence hurt this football team with his dumb drafts, dumb hires, and the idiotic philosophy that he shared with Jauron.

[JohnC]

BLAH BLAH BLAH...

 

You hold Marv Levy accountable, accountable for WHAT EXACTLY? You say the owner favored Sherman, post a link to this complete and utter BS, because it was actually the other way around, Wilson made the choice on Jauron

 

 

This will be the third time I've asked for proof of your continous acusations about how unqualified Marv Levy was and all the mistakes he made as GM, show me one move he made OTHER then the Jauron hire that was harmful to the orginazition... JUST ONE!

 

see link below

 

If you want to believe that Levy was qualified for his position and was effective in his position that is your prerogative. There comes a point when it becomes pointless to continue on with an interminable discussion. In another year or two most of what occurred on Levy's watch during his abbreviated stint will be undone by Nix and his staff. That in itself is an indictment to the quality of Levy and his staff's work.

 

http://forum.sbrforum.com/nfl-handicapping/5443-dick-jauron-become-bills-new-head-coach.html

[NoName]

Remember the Bills made big free agent acquisitions? Remember when they made trades sending out 1st round picks for top flight free agents??? It doesn't happen anymore. When was the last time the Bills made a splash in free agency? When was the last time the Bills picked up a player who was high in demand that everyone wanted? That's why we aren't winning. Look at the impact of our free agents? Look at the impact of our top picks? The only thing keeping this team together is performance of low round draft picks and cheap journeyman players. At the end of the day you need the right horses to win the race. I think Ralph needs to open the wallet and I think nix needs to get some better folks in charge of pro player personnel and scouting.

 

And by the way, with the whole cash to cap system in place, the bills being 12th in spending is very misleading.

[JohnC]

Most of the above is a teary eyed defense of a man who did an absolutely horrible job (except at destroying ny chance of winning), but I will only address some of it.

 

Whitner wasn't a bust because he wasn't as bad as Mike Williams? Is this what you think? 2006 was a star studded draft which was knee deep in very good players at positions of dire need for the Bills. Not only did he waste 3 picks on McCargo and 'Lil Donte, do you recall how he followed up this gem? Youboty and Ko Simpson. Why did you skip them and go straight to Kyle Williams? 3 of his first 4 picks consisted of defensive backs who sucked, and one that is marginal. Levy/Jauron are the only 2 fools that I have ever seen who choose to rebuild a team that is weak and sucks through the secondary. Oh...I will say yet again that they seem like nice guys.

 

You defy us to name bad things he did? How about when he made that jackass "promise" not to put the tag on Clements? Did you like that move? It set the table Jauron (his boy from Chicago) to waste yet another first rounder on McKelvin, another wasted pick.

 

He also busted out on free agents. He signed Dockery for 1 million less than Steinbach got over a 7 year deal. Problem was that Dockery sucks and Steinbach can play. Tripplet and Langston Walker were also horrible.

 

Nobody is trying to deny that Ralph is ultimately to blame, but the fact is that Levys presence hurt this football team with his dumb drafts, dumb hires, and the idiotic philosophy that he shared with Jauron.

 

The defense of Levy and his stint in the organization is absolutely stunning. I'm not trying to be dismissive or condescending but this pristine view on Levy's record as a GM is crazy. Sometimes people deserve what they get.

[weehawk]

I'll put the whole Marv Levy discussion to bed right now.

 

If Marv had won even one Super Bowl, NO ONE would be saying ANYTHING negative about him.

 

If he had won just one SB, no one would have cared if he came back and managed an 0-16 season.

 

If he had won just one SB, he would be elevated to Father Baker status in town.

 

Kinda dumb to drag him in on this.

 

RW killed the team, plain and simple. He made inept FO moves and its cost us ever since.

[wardigital]

Whether or not Buffalo is a pit, it is probably 28th or 29th in terms of the quality of city of the NFL. There are simply better options. And people who read that and get so blindly upset. It is not just the quality of the city. Obviously Green Bay is a bit of a pit too. But they have franchise stability and a quality roster. The Bills do not have either. Players value those things, because it impacts their job security.

 

Look at P. Hillis with the Browns. He said just yesterday that he wasn't that upset with Denver anymore because their organization did not seem very stable anyway. And that's Denver. The problems with Buffalo are immeasurable compared to that. Also, we did not sign Drew Bledsoe, we traded for him.

 

Additionally, it is hard to properly measure the quality of Marv Levy's GM tenure because Jauron was coaching, which probably had a severe impact on some players development. His tenure could have both been fantastic or awful in different circumstances. His big error was hiring Jauron, which doomed him from the start.

[GG]

The defense of Levy and his stint in the organization is absolutely stunning. I'm not trying to be dismissive or condescending but this pristine view on Levy's record as a GM is crazy. Sometimes people deserve what they get.

 

Actually, I thought it was a well reasoned analysis of Levy's tenure. Note that he clearly said that Levy was the best person for the job from Wilson's perspective, but the worst person for the job from the team's perspective.

 

I'm still confounded that people can't move beyond the man's title and assume that he was responsible for all the decision making at OBD during his two years there, when there was ample evidence then and even growing evidence now, that he was brought in to restore the lines of communication from Orchard Park to Detroit.

 

But any organization where there's no accountability by management will end up a failure. Levy screwed up in taking the job thinking that he could effectively handle the GM duties much like he handled coaching - delegate the individual tasks to people responsible for their job and hope they do well. It worked for him in coaching because at the end of the day, he was at the top of the pyramid, but it didn't work as GM because key parts of the organization who made the decisions did not go through him but went straight to Wilson. That's why he was ineffective.

 

Why is this hard to comprehend. Nobody is saying that he was a good GM. What we're saying is that the biggest reason he failed is the structure that Wilson put in which would have made any GM ineffective, let alone a guy who's never done the job before.

[Hplarrm]

The defense of Levy and his stint in the organization is absolutely stunning. I'm not trying to be dismissive or condescending but this pristine view on Levy's record as a GM is crazy. Sometimes people deserve what they get.

Let me begin by pointing out YOU ARE FLAT-OUT WRONG in your reading of my post. It contains among other analysis nuggets like "Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GMz". You call this a "defense of Levy". If he had defense like this in a court of law then warm up old Sparky because he would get the death penalty for a parking ticket.

 

My posts are not a defense of Levy. What they actually are meant as is an offensive attack on what is simply a view unsupported by the fact that Levy set this team back by years.

 

This view simply ignores the facts that:

 

1. This team was well on the road to a decade plus of missing the playoffs when it had stacked up a continual record of missing the playoffs at the end of the Butler reign of error and under the I'm not gonna get run out of town by an HC I hired leadership under TD. Do you want to really claim that we were somehow on the road to making the playoffs but it was the moves under Marv which denied us the playoff appearance which was sure to come except Marv changed course from the winning ways of Butler and TD.

 

It is simply factually inaccurate to claim that even a bad performance by Marv was a reversal of the winning track we were on.

 

2. Did Marv make great moves? No! Even a lame reading of what my post says sees that at its foundation I say things like "Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GM"

 

3. Look at the record. Under Marv who had hired Jauron the problem is not that we produced results which reversed the winning path you seem to imply we were on but instead produced continually a mediocre 7-9 record. This mediocrity even continued in the year immediately post Marv (if you want to blame him for that my defense of him says feel free as even if you blame him for 3 years it still fall short of the length of the record of failure before he even got here. The best thing you can actually say about what reasonably can be called the post Marv leadership era actually produced even worse results with non-existent 1st round choices like Maybin (who makes even McKelvin look like a more productive choice) is to say it needs to get worse before it gets better.

 

4. Your ability to predict the future with no room for dispute is another thing which is simply silly about the claim Marv set this team back by years. Was his work good?

 

NO!

 

Did this work set the team back by years?

 

Impossible to tell actually as who knows what the future holds. You are more than entitled to your opinion on this (fact-free or otherwise) but what you are not correctly entitled to is to claim that the outcome on this debate is stunningly obvious unless you know something normal human beings do not about what will happen when something that doesn't happen occurs (do you really think the Bills were on some track to make the playoffs under the TD methodology augmented by some theoretical replacement you have yet to name). Do you really think that there was some set of moves Marv without a doubt should have made and if only he would have we would be in the playoffs but it was all Marv's fault we did not make them. Look, even I was a pre-draft advocate of taking Ngata because I tend to be more of a start with the trenches rather than start with a safety or even a QB guy. However, I am under no illusion that if Marv had taken Ngata we would be in the playoffs. Again, I do not think Marv was up to being a GM when he got the job, however, I do not think that there was any credible talent who would have been the GM we needed under Mr. Ralph given the toxic relationships he had with his 3 previous GMs.

 

Again I state repetitively in response to your own repetitive contention that Marv set this team back by years that there is a difference between what I think is true that he was in over his head at GM AND it is also true he was probably the best man for the job of being GM under Mr. Ralph.

 

Mr. Ralph simply burned his way through 3 GMs and unless you want to even suggest who would have been a better alternative specifically (competent past winners at GM like Cowher, Shanahan, and Gruden simply refused the job when offered and perhaps you could have attracted used goods like Marty Morningstar but like it or not Levy, inadequate as a GM as he is was likely the best candidate for the job.

 

Was Levy bad?

 

Yep. The repetitive 7-9 records during the brief time he was here demonstrate that.

 

However, is your contention that he set this franchise back years true?

 

Maybe, but pretty doubtful as his record was simply mediocre. Further, he took over a team made mediocre before he got here and actually still under the ownership of the fellow whom the buck stops with for the past mediocre performance. Overall, you simply do not make a case that Marv was anything but mediocre and in fact to try to depict it as some galactic source of the problem not only overstates the bad case but really misses the problem which was shown to be worse when a new GM to replace him could not even be hired.

 

Maybe you want to stick with your unsupported claim that if only they hired Mr. X (the unnamed possibility you clim without even suggesting who this mystery man -or maybe its a gal- would be).

 

My claim is not a defense of Marv (and you are flat-out WRONG to read words like a statement he is inadequate as being a defense)but is simply a reasoned and supported claim that this inadequate GM was about the best we could do under Mr. Ralph's leadership. Your failure to see this and harping on Marv as somehow setting us back years from the road to improvement we were on makes little sense.

[offsides#76FredSmerlas]

.

No you said Buffalo is a pithole and I can't totally agree with that. I've been to a lot of places and yes I would pick some other places to settle down but again your missing the point. You brought up Green Bay and Pittsburgh, which is a complete joke. Green Bay is the frozen tundra of the NFL and its population is around 100,000 and it looks like Niagara Falls. Its not better than Buffalo. Pittsburgh's population is down to 300,000. Its very cold and its not a great city but these teams have something the Bills don't and thats good ownership, good FO. Ralph NO LONGER pays for what it takes to win. That's a fact. At one time he might have, but he has only really brought in 1 winning coach the entire ownership and that was Chuck Knox. TODAY around the rest of the league and Bills fans that deal with reality realize the front office has been a complete joke for some time now. I love the guy for keeping them in western New York an area that has its problems, but we have great fans, we are usually in the top ten in attendance even with 7-9 teams yet he runs the Bills as a business and doesn't care. Don't blame it on Buffalo. Win and prove you want to win and players will come. It happened before.

Wow, that is exactly what I have been trying to say. Don't blame Wilson for being cheap. Draft well, win some games and players will want to play here AND RALPH WILL PAY THEM!!! I said when you're a losing franchise without players to compete THEN PLAYERS WILL SAY "LOSING + LIVING IN BUFFALO = NO WAY!!! I can't say it any simpler than that. By the way did you see that RALPH opened his wallet AGAIN and hire Wannstedt. I'm sure he didn't come cheap.

 

RW has stop paying for big free agents and coaches because of The Tom Donahoe era.TD failed to produce a winning team on the field and Ralphy felt he was sucker punched by some of the moves Donahoe made . The sting is still being felt today!!! There has been plenty of coaches /free agents that would of and could of help this team win. Will we ever see this team win again?? I believe the answer is yes when Mr.Wilson sells the team or he passes away the family sells it.

In order to draft better you need to get someone in who know talent. This team has past up players that are either in the probowl or play at a much higher level then what is on this team now. EX Aaron Maybin,Lynch,Loseman,Edwards,on and on. This teams need to get rid os Tom Modrak and whoever is drafting these BUSTS!!!!

I guess Dave Wannstedt is not a big coach. He just was a former NFL and college head coach and won a super bowl as a defensive coordinator. Donahoe theory just got thrown out the window. Ralph is not cheap...

[JohnC]

Let me begin by pointing out YOU ARE FLAT-OUT WRONG in your reading of my post. It contains among other analysis nuggets like "Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GMz". You call this a "defense of Levy". If he had defense like this in a court of law then warm up old Sparky because he would get the death penalty for a parking ticket.

 

My posts are not a defense of Levy. What they actually are meant as is an offensive attack on what is simply a view unsupported by the fact that Levy set this team back by years.

 

This view simply ignores the facts that:

 

1. This team was well on the road to a decade plus of missing the playoffs when it had stacked up a continual record of missing the playoffs at the end of the Butler reign of error and under the I'm not gonna get run out of town by an HC I hired leadership under TD. Do you want to really claim that we were somehow on the road to making the playoffs but it was the moves under Marv which denied us the playoff appearance which was sure to come except Marv changed course from the winning ways of Butler and TD.

 

It is simply factually inaccurate to claim that even a bad performance by Marv was a reversal of the winning track we were on.

 

2. Did Marv make great moves? No! Even a lame reading of what my post says sees that at its foundation I say things like "Marv was clearly inadequate as he had never been a GM"

 

3. Look at the record. Under Marv who had hired Jauron the problem is not that we produced results which reversed the winning path you seem to imply we were on but instead produced continually a mediocre 7-9 record. This mediocrity even continued in the year immediately post Marv (if you want to blame him for that my defense of him says feel free as even if you blame him for 3 years it still fall short of the length of the record of failure before he even got here. The best thing you can actually say about what reasonably can be called the post Marv leadership era actually produced even worse results with non-existent 1st round choices like Maybin (who makes even McKelvin look like a more productive choice) is to say it needs to get worse before it gets better.

 

4. Your ability to predict the future with no room for dispute is another thing which is simply silly about the claim Marv set this team back by years. Was his work good?

 

NO!

 

Did this work set the team back by years?

 

Impossible to tell actually as who knows what the future holds. You are more than entitled to your opinion on this (fact-free or otherwise) but what you are not correctly entitled to is to claim that the outcome on this debate is stunningly obvious unless you know something normal human beings do not about what will happen when something that doesn't happen occurs (do you really think the Bills were on some track to make the playoffs under the TD methodology augmented by some theoretical replacement you have yet to name). Do you really think that there was some set of moves Marv without a doubt should have made and if only he would have we would be in the playoffs but it was all Marv's fault we did not make them. Look, even I was a pre-draft advocate of taking Ngata because I tend to be more of a start with the trenches rather than start with a safety or even a QB guy. However, I am under no illusion that if Marv had taken Ngata we would be in the playoffs. Again, I do not think Marv was up to being a GM when he got the job, however, I do not think that there was any credible talent who would have been the GM we needed under Mr. Ralph given the toxic relationships he had with his 3 previous GMs.

 

Again I state repetitively in response to your own repetitive contention that Marv set this team back by years that there is a difference between what I think is true that he was in over his head at GM AND it is also true he was probably the best man for the job of being GM under Mr. Ralph.

 

Mr. Ralph simply burned his way through 3 GMs and unless you want to even suggest who would have been a better alternative specifically (competent past winners at GM like Cowher, Shanahan, and Gruden simply refused the job when offered and perhaps you could have attracted used goods like Marty Morningstar but like it or not Levy, inadequate as a GM as he is was likely the best candidate for the job.

 

Was Levy bad?

 

Yep. The repetitive 7-9 records during the brief time he was here demonstrate that.

 

However, is your contention that he set this franchise back years true?

 

Maybe, but pretty doubtful as his record was simply mediocre. Further, he took over a team made mediocre before he got here and actually still under the ownership of the fellow whom the buck stops with for the past mediocre performance. Overall, you simply do not make a case that Marv was anything but mediocre and in fact to try to depict it as some galactic source of the problem not only overstates the bad case but really misses the problem which was shown to be worse when a new GM to replace him could not even be hired.

 

Maybe you want to stick with your unsupported claim that if only they hired Mr. X (the unnamed possibility you clim without even suggesting who this mystery man -or maybe its a gal- would be).

 

My claim is not a defense of Marv (and you are flat-out WRONG to read words like a statement he is inadequate as being a defense)but is simply a reasoned and supported claim that this inadequate GM was about the best we could do under Mr. Ralph's leadership. Your failure to see this and harping on Marv as somehow setting us back years from the road to improvement we were on makes little sense.

 

My analysis of the organization is very simple and blunt that can be unambiguously summarized. The Bills organization under the stewardship of the owner is systemically and historically dysfunctional.

 

On a positive note, at least now the Bills have a GM who has an inkling on how to assess talent. In bringing Whaley to the organization from Pittsburgh the elderly GM was smart enough to start the process of getting away from running a self-defeating and insular shop and try, to some extent, copy a (Pitts, San Diego, Green Bay and Baltimore) model which has proven to be successful. It's about the draft and it's a multi-year process.

Edited January 21, 2011 by JohnC

[JohnC]

Actually, I thought it was a well reasoned analysis of Levy's tenure. Note that he clearly said that Levy was the best person for the job from Wilson's perspective, but the worst person for the job from the team's perspective.

 

Your above comment is the best way to conclude this topic.

 

 

 

Why is this hard to comprehend. Nobody is saying that he was a good GM. What we're saying is that the biggest reason he failed is the structure that Wilson put in which would have made any GM ineffective, let alone a guy who's never done the job before.

 

Another way to look at your comment is that he had no impact on changing the culture of failure and the dysfunctional system. He merely got sucked up into it.

Edited January 21, 2011 by JohnC