finknottle Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 With all the talk of the importance of having a franchise quarterback, how you can't pass up the opportunity to draft one when you have the chance, and where you are most likely to get one: I'd like to see a precise definition of "franchise quarterback," so that we know what to look for in the draft, and the difference between it and "starting caliber quarterback." I'd also like to see a list of the FQ's in the league so that we can sort out just how rare they are and how their teams performance compares to non-FQ's going forward. Debating the neccessity of getting one seems an unproductive discussion if we actually give the title in hindsight. Sort of like arguing the importance of drafting hall-of-famers. So humor me. Define franchise quarterback, and tell me who is and is not one.
Gugny Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 With all the talk of the importance of having a franchise quarterback, how you can't pass up the opportunity to draft one when you have the chance, and where you are most likely to get one: I'd like to see a precise definition of "franchise quarterback," so that we know what to look for in the draft, and the difference between it and "starting caliber quarterback." I'd also like to see a list of the FQ's in the league so that we can sort out just how rare they are and how their teams performance compares to non-FQ's going forward. Debating the neccessity of getting one seems an unproductive discussion if we actually give the title in hindsight. Sort of like arguing the importance of drafting hall-of-famers. So humor me. Define franchise quarterback, and tell me who is and is not one. Best example, I'd say, is the most recent one. Sam Bradford. But if you build a team with good lines on both sides of the ball, I think it becomes less important to have a great QB (see the NY Jets). There is no "franchise QB" that will be available at #3, so I hope we just address our lines and our defense, in general.
Chas56 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) I'll take a stab at it: A franchise quarterback is the face of your franchise. When someone thinks of the Colts, it is, first and foremost, Peyton Manning that comes to mind. He is a quarterback that your franchise would pay top dollar to keep if his contract were up. He is an elite player who can, through both leadership and talent, get your team the win. He is The Man. When someone says we need to draft our franchise quarterback, they are saying is that we need to draft a kid that will become that man. Current franchise quarterbacks: P. Manning, T. Brady, A. Rogers, B. Rothlisberger, D. Brees, P. Rivers Borderline: T. Romo, E. Manning, J. Flacco, M. Ryan Becoming and Fading: S. Bradford, J. Cutler, M. Sanchez, M. Stafford, D. McNabb, B. Farve Edited January 17, 2011 by Chas56
Maddog69 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 If you don't already know what one is, I doubt that anyone can explain it to you.
Boatdrinks Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 [quote name='finknottle' timestamp='1295273598' post='2088698' So humor me. Define franchise quarterback, and tell me who is and is not one. A "franchise QB" is one who, by certain characteristics, makes plays happen on the field that probably shouldn't. The arm strength is just a little stronger than most, the accuracy is more consistent, the defense is read a little more quickly, the pressure is "sensed" a split second faster.If the NFL is a game of inches, NFL QB's are separated by fractions of seconds. Most any QB cam look good when they have time. But at the NFL level, you just don't get that much time. There were several plays in Saturdays Green Bay/ Atlanta game where Aaron Rodgers had free rushers coming at him. He sensed it and made a great move to produce positive, huge plays for his team on several occasions. The non franchise QB probably ends up with a strip/sack fumble on a couple of those. Rodgers is undoubtedly a franchise QB. Ryan Fitzpatrick is not. He may be "starting quality" where he can get some wins and generally not lose the game. He has enough awareness to get rid of the ball and not get sacked. Even against some quicker defenses like Pittsburgh. He lacks the superior arm strength/accuracy combination to be a franchise guy. Trent Edwards or JP Losman do not have enough of these qualities to be starting caliber. Without maybe one of the best defenses of all time- a la 2000 Ravens, the Bills need to find that franchise QB if they want to compete at the highest level and win playoff games.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Best example, I'd say, is the most recent one. Sam Bradford. But if you build a team with good lines on both sides of the ball, I think it becomes less important to have a great QB (see the NY Jets). There is no "franchise QB" that will be available at #3, so I hope we just address our lines and our defense, in general. OK, help me out gugny or anyone else. What makes Bradford a "franchise QB"? His 1 yr stats are 60.6% completion, 6 YPA, rating 76.6. 18 TD, 15 Int. 7 wins, 9 losses Is it his stats? Is it his draft position? Is it the intent of his drafting team (to make him the long-term starter)? Stafford #1 overall last year. His stats b4 injury: 54.5% completion, 5.9 YPA, rating 67.1, 19 TD, 21 INT 2 wins, 11 losses. Is he a franchise QB? Same questions? Here is a list of all QB drafted #1 from 2005 to 2010. Which of them are franchise QB? Why? Year Pick Player Tm Games Comp% TD Int 2010 1 Sam Bradford STL 16 60% 18 15 2010 25 Tim Tebow DEN 9 50% 5 3 2009 1 Matthew Stafford DET 13 55% 19 21 2009 5 Mark Sanchez NYJ 31 54% 29 33 2009 17 Josh Freeman TAM 26 59% 35 24 2008 3 Matt Ryan ATL 46 61% 66 34 2008 18 Joe Flacco BAL 48 62% 60 34 2007 1 JaMarcus Russell OAK 31 52% 18 23 2007 22 Brady Quinn CLE 14 52% 10 9 2006 3 Vince Young TEN 54 58% 42 42 2006 10 Matt Leinart ARI 29 57% 14 20 2006 11 Jay Cutler DEN 68 62% 104 79 2005 1 Alex Smith SFO 54 57% 51 53 2005 24 Aaron Rodgers GNB 54 64% 87 32 2005 25 Jason Campbell WAS 65 61% 68 46 If you don't already know what one is, I doubt that anyone can explain it to you. Nice. You're saying franchise QB can't be explained or quantitated and is entirely in the eye of the beholder. In other words, it is whatever the writer wants it to be, and it isn't whatever the writer doesn't want it to be Edited January 17, 2011 by Hopeful
Gugny Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 OK, help me out gugny or anyone else. What makes Bradford a "franchise QB"? His 1 yr stats are 60.6% completion, 6 YPA, rating 76.6. 18 TD, 15 Int. 7 wins, 9 losses Is it his stats? Is it his draft position? Is it the intent of his drafting team (to make him the long-term starter)? Stafford #1 overall last year. His stats b4 injury: 54.5% completion, 5.9 YPA, rating 67.1, 19 TD, 21 INT 2 wins, 11 losses. Is he a franchise QB? Same questions? Here is a list of all QB drafted #1 from 2005 to 2010. Which of them are franchise QB? Why? Year Pick Player Tm Games Comp% TD Int 2010 1 Sam Bradford STL 16 60% 18 15 2010 25 Tim Tebow DEN 9 50% 5 3 2009 1 Matthew Stafford DET 13 55% 19 21 2009 5 Mark Sanchez NYJ 31 54% 29 33 2009 17 Josh Freeman TAM 26 59% 35 24 2008 3 Matt Ryan ATL 46 61% 66 34 2008 18 Joe Flacco BAL 48 62% 60 34 2007 1 JaMarcus Russell OAK 31 52% 18 23 2007 22 Brady Quinn CLE 14 52% 10 9 2006 3 Vince Young TEN 54 58% 42 42 2006 10 Matt Leinart ARI 29 57% 14 20 2006 11 Jay Cutler DEN 68 62% 104 79 2005 1 Alex Smith SFO 54 57% 51 53 2005 24 Aaron Rodgers GNB 54 64% 87 32 2005 25 Jason Campbell WAS 65 61% 68 46 I'd say the following are franchise QBs: Bradford Stafford (if he can stay healthy) Sanchez Ryan Flacco Cutler Rodgers I just think it's the immediate display of leadership when put into the starting role that makes a QB a franchise guy, in addtion to on-the-field talent. Sam Bradford was respected by his team the first day of his first OTAs.
gumby Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 This reminds me of a ruling by the Supreme Court in 1973. Asked to define what is pornography Justice Potter Stewart said the following: “I shall not today attempt further to define [obscenity]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it….” Take that quote and substitute obscenity with franchise quarterback and I think it rings true as well.
Hplarrm Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I'd say the following are franchise QBs: Bradford Stafford (if he can stay healthy) Sanchez Ryan Flacco Cutler Rodgers I just think it's the immediate display of leadership when put into the starting role that makes a QB a franchise guy, in addtion to on-the-field talent. Sam Bradford was respected by his team the first day of his first OTAs. I think that the word "franchise" is not just a mere statement of the skill level of a QB, but whether he has the support from his teammates and the luck of how this oddly shaped ball bounces to actually win big time for a while. I would flat out reject the contention that virtually all the players on the list above should be designated as franchise QBs. Sanchez is headed there with two straight AFC Championship appearances I define going deep in the playoffs as appearing in the championship game. However, I simply cannot see giving this title to a player merely because he led gets designated the starting QB but did not lead his team deep into the playoffs. Bradford is a very talented and promising QN I would love to have but he is not a franchise QB in my book.
Hplarrm Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Rodgers is undoubtedly a franchise QB. I disagree. Rodgers is an excellent QB that any team should be proud to have. His racking up a QB rating over 100 a couple of years in a row are great indications of how phenomenal talent he is. However, though my view may not be the norm in the "right now" society that we have, I do not think we should grace a QB with the franchise stamp until they are a proven winner and leader several times in a row. Doing it once may be an event. Doing it twice may be a coincidence. You have to do it three times to make it a trend. This to me is why Jim Kelly is the real deal and actually a worthy HOF player though he never won it all (and it can be said credibly with his partying that his pregame lack of preparation was one of the big stories of ther Bills first SB loss( but he us someone I would grace with the tag franchise QB. Rodgers has had a great couple of seasons and he is clearly a go-to guy right here and right now in my book. However, it was merely a couple of seasons ago he led his team to a ginormous 6-10 record. In addition, he is about to play the team which beat them and cost them them a division title this year. I think you are being a bit too easy in your praise to designate him as an obvious franchise QB. In fact, Rodgers is leading his team into the friendly confines of Soldiers Field rather than getting the advantage of the Lambeau Leap specifically because he is not a franchise QB (YET). He may do it and he has a chance to prove it on Sunday. However, your designation of undoubtedly? If Rodgers gets folded, spindled, and mutilated on Sunday his play this year will not be franchise but not even a footnote.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Quoted as said by me (Hopeful), but actually said by gugny: Credit where credit is due! I'd say the following are franchise QBs: Bradford Stafford (if he can stay healthy) Sanchez Ryan Flacco Cutler Rodgers End Quote I just think it's the immediate display of leadership when put into the starting role that makes a QB a franchise guy, in addtion to on-the-field talent. Sam Bradford was respected by his team the first day of his first OTAs. I think that the word "franchise" is not just a mere statement of the skill level of a QB, but whether he has the support from his teammates and the luck of how this oddly shaped ball bounces to actually win big time for a while. I would flat out reject the contention that virtually all the players on the list above should be designated as franchise QBs. Sanchez is headed there with two straight AFC Championship appearances I define going deep in the playoffs as appearing in the championship game. However, I simply cannot see giving this title to a player merely because he led gets designated the starting QB but did not lead his team deep into the playoffs. Bradford is a very talented and promising QN I would love to have but he is not a franchise QB in my book. OK, so we're getting somewhere with an "operational definition" of franchise QB, and I'm hearing it is defined somewhat retrospectively. He must: 1) play on a team that wins regular season games (so that they go to the playoffs - don't go if you don't win!) 2) play on a team that is successful in the playoffs and goes to the championship game 3) repeat this pattern of success more than twice -- since twice has Sanchez "headed there" 4) be considered a leader and difference maker with his teammates. 5) have some level of skill -- is there some kinda criterion for what sorta statistics we want to see from a true Franchise QB? Am I getting this straight, TBD fellows? However, your designation of undoubtedly? If Rodgers gets folded, spindled, and mutilated on Sunday his play this year will not be franchise but not even a footnote. Hmmm. Brady got folded, spindled and mutilated yesterday, does that mean his play this year will not be franchise but not even a footnote? Still trying to figure this out.
Maddog69 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 How about we forget about arguing over the definition of "Franchise" qb and just agree that we need a better QB? Whatever category you put Rodgers in, that's what I want the Bills to have. For me, a "Franchise" QB is a guy who is Hall of Fame quality. It's tough to identify that during the playing career, especiially early on. But over time, you realize it and by the time they are done playing, there is little debate. True "Franchise" QBs don't come around often. I will settle for a very good to elite QB. Right now we have and average/journeyman QB.
Hplarrm Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Hmmm. Brady got folded, spindled and mutilated yesterday, does that mean his play this year will not be franchise but not even a footnote? Still trying to figure this out. For me, franchise is not an episodic delineation, but really talks about a career. This cuts both ways. Brad Johnson does not qualify for me as a franchise QB "merely" for leading TB to an SB win (what he did was way cool and he deserves kudos for this but he is not a franchise QB in my lingo- I would chose Jimbo as my QB over Brad Johnson all day. The same goes for Trent Dilfer who was not a franchise QB as much as he was the right talented but limited guy in Baltimore at the right time after he proved to be a 1st round drafted bust). Thus, Brady does not lose my designation of him as a franchise guy simply because he has lost 3 playoff games in a row (a pretty phenomenal record of failure actually which begins to at least raise some questions about his patina- questions which I think are easily answered by his previous record of success but legit questions begin to be raised). I would add however, that my favorite story of a player who in my too much NFL watching experience totally deserved the franchise QB label despite only meriting a 3rd round choice was Joe Montana. The story is that apparently in one game which came down to SF having one play where they would either score a TD or go home losers and SF had apparently gotten rocked and beaten up all day unexpectedly, the players came to the huddle looking to Joe for leadership in what was clearly the most critical play of the day and in fact of the season. The potential for panic was setting in and all eyes and ears turned to Joe to give them direction to put this all into perspective as the big play. Joe looked at the group and then toward the endzone and said. Hey, isn't that John Candy (a big time comedian at the time for you yute too young to remember) in the third row? I love his work. He was great in the movie Splash" Let's score a TD on a fade pass to Rice (or whoever) right in front of him. Leaders have a great way of instilling confidence, perspective, and shared mission among the people they lead. My favorite SB quote is some press flack asked Hollywood Henderson, Duane Thomas or some other Dallas Cowboy who walked to his own drummer whether the coming SB was the biggest moment in his life. He replied, "If its so important why do they play it every year?" I love leadership and it is one of the marks of a franchise QB. The 9ers scored and won it all
dayman Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Simply put...a franchise guy is a guy who you KNOW can get it done. So much so that if he doesn't get it done, it was not to be. If he has a terrible game in the playoffs you say "we'll get them next year" as opposed to "IDK about this guy in the playoffs." In short, a guy that wins the job for life. A guy who once he comes into his own...will not be challenged in a city until he falls off b/c of extreme old age or retires. That's the way I think of it and it's impossible to put stats or common qualities to it b/c that is different w/ every city and every team.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 Here is a list of all QB drafted #1 from 2005 to 2010. Which of them are franchise QB? Why? Year Pick Player Tm Games Comp% TD Int 2010 1 Sam Bradford STL 16 60% 18 15 2010 25 Tim Tebow DEN 9 50% 5 3 2009 1 Matthew Stafford DET 13 55% 19 21 2009 5 Mark Sanchez NYJ 31 54% 29 33 2009 17 Josh Freeman TAM 26 59% 35 24 2008 3 Matt Ryan ATL 46 61% 66 34 2008 18 Joe Flacco BAL 48 62% 60 34 2007 1 JaMarcus Russell OAK 31 52% 18 23 2007 22 Brady Quinn CLE 14 52% 10 9 2006 3 Vince Young TEN 54 58% 42 42 2006 10 Matt Leinart ARI 29 57% 14 20 2006 11 Jay Cutler DEN 68 62% 104 79 2005 1 Alex Smith SFO 54 57% 51 53 2005 24 Aaron Rodgers GNB 54 64% 87 32 2005 25 Jason Campbell WAS 65 61% 68 46 I'd say the following are franchise QBs: Bradford Stafford (if he can stay healthy) Sanchez Ryan Flacco Cutler Rodgers I just think it's the immediate display of leadership when put into the starting role that makes a QB a franchise guy, in addtion to on-the-field talent. Sam Bradford was respected by his team the first day of his first OTAs. gugny, thanks for taking a stab at this. Again, I'm still trying to figure this out, why "those are the guys". I hope I don't seem like picking nits. Bradford and Stafford - not so great stats, young top of the draft picks, seen as having a lot of potential - "potential franchise QB"? But then why not Freeman? Drafted the same year as Stafford, although later in the 1st round, and has quite a bit better stats (QB rating 95.9 this year, 61.4% completion, 7.3 YPA), led his team to a winning record (10-6)? From what I can tell he was seen as a leader - rallied the team from 11 game losing streak and won from his first start. Sanchez - Mediocre stats, he's winning though. Does he have that leadership "it", or is he just a competent starter surrounded by a great team? Ryan, Flacco, Rodgers, Cutler -- all winning, all going to championships, all good stats. Campbell -- actually has very equivalent stats (60.8% completion, 6.7 YPA, rating 82.6) to Cutler (61.6%, 7.2 YPA, 84.3) and Ryan (60.8%, 6.9 YPA, rating 86.9) But Campbell has played for two mediocre to sucky teams, the first of which threw him away in the hope of McNabb-driven success. Is that what this franchise QB fuss is all about? Win and you're in? Lose and it's on you?
Thoner7 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I would define franchise QB as someone who is priceless to your franchise. Someone who has no trade value because you would never trade them. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, etc. I would include young impressive guys like Bradford, Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman too, not because they are like the ones in the first group, but because they have a good chance to be as good someday, that’s the thought anyways. PS I don’t see anyone in this draft class that could be a franchise guy.
JohnC Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 PS I don’t see anyone in this draft class that could be a franchise guy. I do. It is Newton. Should we draft him at our #3 position. Probably not, though I would not squeal about it if we did. All the qbs you listed took some time to develop. Brees wasn't an instant star. Freeman is still developing and will get better. Stafford has had a bumpy road but if gets healthy and the Lions add talent he should make the leap into the franchise qb category. Rodgers may now be the most dynamic qb in the game. He didn't play much until his fourth year. I do like Sanchez. But it would be a reach to think that he is a finished product. Far from it. The Bills are not a good team. They are years away from being capable of contending with the best teams in its own division. That is more of a reason why it is better to identify a legitimate franchise qb for this struggling team and time his development with the addition of better players over the next few years.
Hplarrm Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 I do. It is Newton. Should we draft him at our #3 position. Probably not, though I would not squeal about it if we did. All the qbs you listed took some time to develop. Brees wasn't an instant star. Freeman is still developing and will get better. Stafford has had a bumpy road but if gets healthy and the Lions add talent he should make the leap into the franchise qb category. Rodgers may now be the most dynamic qb in the game. He didn't play much until his fourth year. I do like Sanchez. But it would be a reach to think that he is a finished product. Far from it. The Bills are not a good team. They are years away from being capable of contending with the best teams in its own division. That is more of a reason why it is better to identify a legitimate franchise qb for this struggling team and time his development with the addition of better players over the next few years. This is a good point as the fact of the matter is that it seems somewhat counter to reality to define a guy as franchise because you would never trade him when actually there are a significant number of players whom virtually all would agree are "franchise" QBs who were not only traded but actually cut, Is Brett Favre a franchise guy? Was Steve Young a franchise guy> In recent history not only was Favre acquired as an FA twice, Donovan McNabb acquired as an FA and it appears likely to be one soon again, and Drew Brees also was simply run out of dodge. Its one of the reasons why when folks claim you MUST draft a franchise guy are simply ignoring reality is that it is simply the case franchise QBs are there to found in other methods besides the draft. Add to this fact, that being a QB capable of leading your team to an SB win and being a franchise QB are two different things (did Brad Johnson play an essential role in QBing TB to an SB win? Yep, Is he a franchise QB? Nope. Was Dilfer capable of QBing Bal to an SB win? Was he even a first round bust picked up in FA? Yep and yep. Do the Bills need a franchise QB? Nope, it would be nice. However, if I can win an SB without a franchise QB or simply just make the playoffs without a franchise QB then I question mortgaging the farm in a likely unsuccessful attempt to acquire one. A 1st rounder is in fact more likely to be a franchise QB, but given that a bunch of first rounders will be available after they get run out of Dodge, that it is not impossible at all to get a franchise QB in a later round, and given that our goals are NOT to get the next Jimbo lets just make the darn playoffs first, I think folks need to get a clue.
OldTimer1960 Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) ...I think you are being a bit too easy in your praise to designate him as an obvious franchise QB. In fact, Rodgers is leading his team into the friendly confines of Soldiers Field rather than getting the advantage of the Lambeau Leap specifically because he is not a franchise QB (YET). He may do it and he has a chance to prove it on Sunday. However, your designation of undoubtedly? If Rodgers gets folded, spindled, and mutilated on Sunday his play this year will not be franchise but not even a footnote. I slightly disagree. I think that even a truly great QB can't look very good with no supporting cast. I think the definition has to be a little more fuzzy like "can elevate at team to succeed at a level greater than the sum of their collective talents would reasonably be able to". Something to that effect anyway. To saddle Rodgers with responsibility for all of the injuries that his team suffered seems harsh. Likewise, to lavish too much praise on Mark Sanchez because the Jets's D and OL are really outstanding seems a bit generous. I think to *some* extent that Fitzpatrick elevated the play of the Bills' offense above what could be reasonably expected of a team with questionable talent at OT, inexperienced and questionable talent at WR, an OK running game and virtually no TE. Yet, I wouldn't argue that Fitz is a "Franchise QB". Is he someone that a very good team can win with and make the playoffs with? Yes, I think so. Given the exact same supporting casts, would he be a prohibitive underdog against Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers? Again I think yes. Edited January 17, 2011 by OldTimer1960
JohnC Posted January 17, 2011 Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Its one of the reasons why when folks claim you MUST draft a franchise guy are simply ignoring reality is that it is simply the case franchise QBs are there to found in other methods besides the draft. Do the Bills need a franchise QB? Nope, it would be nice. However, if I can win an SB without a franchise QB or simply just make the playoffs without a franchise QB then I question mortgaging the farm in a likely unsuccessful attempt to acquire one. A 1st rounder is in fact more likely to be a franchise QB, but given that a bunch of first rounders will be available after they get run out of Dodge, that it is not impossible at all to get a franchise QB in a later round, and given that our goals are NOT to get the next Jimbo lets just make the darn playoffs first, I think folks need to get a clue. The teams vying for their league championships all have qbs who were drafted in the first round. Sanchez, Cutler, Roethlisberger and Rodgers were taken in the first round by their respective playoff teams. Do you consider that a coincidence? Did you forget that the Bills most successful period in its history was during the Jim Kelly era? If you forgot let me remind you that he was drafted by Bill Polian in the first round. No one is mortgaging the farm by taking a qb with a first or second round pick. It is simply one pick. How many high picks have this lame franchise squandered over the past decade? There are a lot of reasons why the Bills haven't been in the playoffs. One of the main reasons they haven't qualified for the postseason for almost a generation is a lack of a franchise qb. You may think Fitz is an exceptional qb but I consider him to be nothing more than a pedestrian player. That doesn't mean that he isn't a nice guy. Edited January 17, 2011 by JohnC
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