Hplarrm Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 1 Tom Brady NE 111 2 Philip Rivers SD 101.8 3 Aaron Rodgers GB 101.2 4 Michael Vick PHI 100.2 5 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 97 6 Josh Freeman TB 95.9 7 Joe Flacco BAL 93.6 8 Matt Cassel KC 93 9 Matt Schaub HOU 92 10 Peyton Manning IND 91.9 11 Matt Ryan ATL 91 12 Drew Brees NO 90.9 Fplks can argue all they want about which list is the right list to use (I don;t think it matters much for discussion purposes as thus list is close enough) or whether you need a 1st round choice or not. The key for the Bills is simply how you acquire your first round drafted guy. Particularly since with Luck not in there really is no remote agreed must pick franchise QB the Bills seem far better off getting their highly thought of QB from some other means, At some point i will go through this list looking at how the team which has this top 10 QB acquired them but offhand from 6th round pick Brady to FA Brees ot looks to me like getting your QB through other means than a 1st rd pick is a viable option
Alphadawg7 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) So again, I ask WHERE I said **** about a first round QB?? Now go do your homework and tell me how many BUSTS there have been at QB? If Luck was there, I'd say take him, but he's not. Sorry... Newton, nor Mallett are worth the #3. And I suppose none of the teams that are in have great Defenses? Hmmm... seems to be my point huh? And I bet NONE of the teams still alive have players on D that were taken in the first round. You're right... we should just try UDFA players or "reaches" for our trenches. So far the playoff teams like the Jets have only GASHED us for 250+ yds a game this year on the ground. You all aren't stupid. You wont win ANYTHING with a crappy run D. You do realize that his league is littered with complete and total busts at every single defensive postion as well right? You act like a first round QB is a guaranteed bust while a defensive or O Line player is very safe...the busts rates are not that much different. Funny how 75% of the QB's in the playoffs were taken in the first 32 picks. Let me paint you 2 different scenarios, and lets see what that looks like for the Bills of 2010. In each case we will use the exact same roster as we had but with one difference: Team A: This 2010 roster with the addition of which ever guy you think is the best DL in all of football...lets say Ngata for instance (or which ever one you think is best). OR Team B: This 2010 roster with the addition of one of the best QB's in football like Rodgers or Manning. Which team wins more games in 2010? Team A or Team B? Its not even a tough question...anyone with any common sense clearly knows that Team B hands down wins more games than Team A in 2010. PS: If we held a draft where every player in the NFL was in it, the first 5 picks of the draft would be QB's (Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Brady) and very likely would go QB at least the first 7 or 8 picks with guys like Big Ben, Vick, etc. Theres a reason for that... Case Closed...next topic Edited January 18, 2011 by Alphadawg7
Maddog69 Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 You do realize that his league is littered with complete and total busts at every single defensive postion as well right? You act like a first round QB is a guaranteed bust while a defensive or O Line player is very safe...the busts rates are not that much different. Funny how 75% of the QB's in the playoffs were taken in the first 32 picks. Let me paint you 2 different scenarios, and lets see what that looks like for the Bills of 2010. In each case we will use the exact same roster as we had but with one difference: Team A: This 2010 roster with the addition of which ever guy you think is the best DL in all of football...lets say Ngata for instance (or which ever one you think is best). OR Team B: This 2010 roster with the addition of one of the best QB's in football like Rodgers or Manning. Which team wins more games in 2010? Team A or Team B? Its not even a tough question...anyone with any common sense clearly knows that Team B hands down wins more games than Team A in 2010. PS: If we held a draft where every player in the NFL was in it, the first 5 picks of the draft would be QB's (Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Brady) and very likely would go QB at least the first 7 or 8 picks with guys like Big Ben, Vick, etc. Theres a reason for that... Case Closed...next topic We have a winner
bbb Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 You do realize that his league is littered with complete and total busts at every single defensive postion as well right? You act like a first round QB is a guaranteed bust while a defensive or O Line player is very safe...the busts rates are not that much different. Funny how 75% of the QB's in the playoffs were taken in the first 32 picks. Let me paint you 2 different scenarios, and lets see what that looks like for the Bills of 2010. In each case we will use the exact same roster as we had but with one difference: Team A: This 2010 roster with the addition of which ever guy you think is the best DL in all of football...lets say Ngata for instance (or which ever one you think is best). OR Team B: This 2010 roster with the addition of one of the best QB's in football like Rodgers or Manning. Which team wins more games in 2010? Team A or Team B? Its not even a tough question...anyone with any common sense clearly knows that Team B hands down wins more games than Team A in 2010. PS: If we held a draft where every player in the NFL was in it, the first 5 picks of the draft would be QB's (Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Brady) and very likely would go QB at least the first 7 or 8 picks with guys like Big Ben, Vick, etc. Theres a reason for that... Case Closed...next topic This is my point in asking how many guys we get to pick at #3. If we can get a whole defensive line with one pick, I'd agree that we have to go D. But, a QB is so much more important than any one player anywhere else on the field.
1B4IDie Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 Fplks can argue all they want about which list is the right list to use (I don;t think it matters much for discussion purposes as thus list is close enough) or whether you need a 1st round choice or not. The key for the Bills is simply how you acquire your first round drafted guy. Particularly since with Luck not in there really is no remote agreed must pick franchise QB the Bills seem far better off getting their highly thought of QB from some other means, At some point i will go through this list looking at how the team which has this top 10 QB acquired them but offhand from 6th round pick Brady to FA Brees ot looks to me like getting your QB through other means than a 1st rd pick is a viable option Nice point 1 Tom Brady NE 111 Drafted 6th round 2 Philip Rivers SD 101.8 Drafted 1st round 3 Aaron Rodgers GB 101.2 Drafted 1st round 4 Michael Vick PHI 100.2 FA signing after prison and suspension Drafted 1st round 5 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 97 Drafted 1st round (2 picks before the Bills ) 6 Josh Freeman TB 95.9 Drafted 1st round 7 Joe Flacco BAL 93.6 Drafted 1st round 8 Matt Cassel KC 93 Trade Picked 7th round 9 Matt Schaub HOU 92 Trade Picked 3rd round 10 Peyton Manning IND 91.9 Drafted 1st round 11 Matt Ryan ATL 91 Drafted 1st rouund 12 Drew Brees NO 90.9 FA Drafted pick #32
McD Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 You do realize that his league is littered with complete and total busts at every single defensive postion as well right? You act like a first round QB is a guaranteed bust while a defensive or O Line player is very safe...the busts rates are not that much different. Funny how 75% of the QB's in the playoffs were taken in the first 32 picks. Let me paint you 2 different scenarios, and lets see what that looks like for the Bills of 2010. In each case we will use the exact same roster as we had but with one difference: Team A: This 2010 roster with the addition of which ever guy you think is the best DL in all of football...lets say Ngata for instance (or which ever one you think is best). OR Team B: This 2010 roster with the addition of one of the best QB's in football like Rodgers or Manning. Which team wins more games in 2010? Team A or Team B? Its not even a tough question...anyone with any common sense clearly knows that Team B hands down wins more games than Team A in 2010. PS: If we held a draft where every player in the NFL was in it, the first 5 picks of the draft would be QB's (Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Brees, Brady) and very likely would go QB at least the first 7 or 8 picks with guys like Big Ben, Vick, etc. Theres a reason for that... Case Closed...next topic Really??? This is FACT?!?! You have what to back your claim? Manning already had his ass handed to him by the Jets, but you'll ignopre that right? Here's the thing... We HAVE a QB! And Andrew Luck isn't there... Will any of you listen to this?? If... IF the Bills can trade down, pick up additional picks AND get Newton, Mallett, etc AND then still get the D help... go for it! BUT... again, WE HAVE FITZ for now... WE SUCK STOPPING ANYONE. Are you all going to keep on imagining us not getting our ass handed to us in run D week in and week out??? QB isn't our immediate concern. Hell I wont say Bob Matthews is a fiootball genius, but even HE sees it... http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110118/SPORTS0101/101180316/tbd Lol... some of you are too damned funny... This is my point in asking how many guys we get to pick at #3. If we can get a whole defensive line with one pick, I'd agree that we have to go D. But, a QB is so much more important than any one player anywhere else on the field. So... lets grab a guy that should be drafted in the middle of the first to maybe the middle of the second round at #3 overall, JUST because you all think our biggest need is at QB. Tom Donahoe... is that you... DJ maybe?
McD Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Nice point 1 Tom Brady NE 111 Drafted 6th round 2 Philip Rivers SD 101.8 Drafted 1st round 3 Aaron Rodgers GB 101.2 Drafted 1st round 4 Michael Vick PHI 100.2 FA signing after prison and suspension Drafted 1st round 5 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 97 Drafted 1st round (2 picks before the Bills ) 6 Josh Freeman TB 95.9 Drafted 1st round 7 Joe Flacco BAL 93.6 Drafted 1st round 8 Matt Cassel KC 93 Trade Picked 7th round 9 Matt Schaub HOU 92 Trade Picked 3rd round 10 Peyton Manning IND 91.9 Drafted 1st round 11 Matt Ryan ATL 91 Drafted 1st rouund 12 Drew Brees NO 90.9 FA Drafted pick #32 Please... dont forget to add all the first round QB's that did NOT lead their team to the playoffs, or that are even in the league anymore...
McD Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Let's go back to 1998 with the first round QB's... since Manning is still playing, seems to be a good year. 1998 Peyton Manning (franchise QB, made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 1998 Ryan Leaf (EPIC BUST) 1999 Tim Couch (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Donovan McNabb (no playoffs) 1999 Akili Smith (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Duante Culpepper (out of the league) 1999 Cade McNown (BUST, out of the league) 2000 Chad Pennington (out of the league) 2001 Michael Vick (franchise QB to some... made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2002 David Carr (BUST, no playoffs) 2002 Joey Harrington (Taken #3 overall, BUST, out of the league) 2002 Patrick Ramsey (BUST, out of the league) 2003 Carson Palmer (was decent, no playoffs) 2003 Byron Leftwich (so-so, couldn't hang on with Jags... made playoffs as current back-up to Rothlisraper) 2003 Kyle Boller (career back-up, no playoffs) 2003 Rex Grossman (so-so, no playoffs) 2004 Eli Manning (franchise to some, no playoffs) 2004 Philip Rivers (franchise QB to most, no playoffs) 2004 Ben Roethlisraper (franchise to most, in playoffs) 2004 JP Loserman (BUST, but back-up in Seattle, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2005 Alex Smith (eh... no playoffs) 2005 Aaron Rodgers (franchise to some/most, still in playoffs) 2005 Jason Cambell (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Vince Young (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Matt Leinart (BUST, out of league) 2006 Jay Cutler (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2007 Jamarcus Russell (BUST, out of league) 2007 Brady Quinn (eh.. pretty much a bust, no playoffs) 2008 Matt Ryan (good QB, should be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2008 Joe Flacco (good QB, could be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2009 Matthew Stafford (decent QB, too early on him, no playoffs) 2009 Mark Sanchez (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2009 Josh Freeman (decent QB, no playoffs) 2010 Sam Bradford (good QB, no playoffs) 2010 Tim Tebow (no real playing time yet, no playoffs) So... there have been 35 1st round QB's taken and the 4 still remaining are split with two franchise/probable franchise QB's and two good/solid QB's. There are QB's up there with way better #'s, but yet these 4 remain... why??? Oh yeah, because they have 4 of the BEST DEFENSES in the damned league! Seems like you can have ALL sorts of "first round QB's", but only those with great D's seem to survive... Hello? Bueller? Edited January 19, 2011 by McD
TDRupp Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 So, down goes Manning, down goes Brees, down goes Flacco, down goes Vick, down goes Ryan, down goes Brady.... To all of you that think we NEED a QB at #3 this year (none worthy at #3), once again... here is a CLASSIC example of the need for a solid defense. This years defenses prove once again, that a top D is the tonic this team needs. It will give this team the attitude this team and city needs. You want to grab a QB in the third? Ok... no issues, but that better be after a selection of a DE/DT and a LB. Buddy... SOLIDIFY the D through the draft AND through FA. Don't bank on Merriman being "the man"... he's an unknown at this time. Go draft help, go pay the $$ for FA help... The O can use an RT an TE and some depth too... BUT... I hope you're paying attention this post season... D, D, D, D, D, D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets see how many are still franchise QB's and 1st round picks: 1. Rothlisberger pick 10 I think 2. Sanchez pick #5 3. Cutler pick #12 or #13 4. Rodgers pick 20 or 22 (and could have been #1 if SF choose to go that route...was said to be very close between him and A. Smith) Hmm. so whether they are consider "franchise" QB's or not they all were 1st round picks and 3 of 4 in the top 15. We need one of these QB's. Period. We also need elite or very good players on D. Let Buddy do his job and if he messes it up, someone gets a try in 2013 or 2014. Let's go back to 1998 with the first round QB's... since Manning is still playing, seems to be a good year. 1998 Peyton Manning (franchise QB, made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 1998 Ryan Leaf (EPIC BUST) 1999 Tim Couch (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Donovan McNabb (no playoffs) 1999 Akili Smith (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Duante Culpepper (out of the league) 1999 Cade McNown (BUST, out of the league) 2000 Chad Pennington (out of the league) 2001 Michael Vick (franchise QB to some... made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2002 David Carr (BUST, no playoffs) 2002 Joey Harrington (Taken #3 overall, BUST, out of the league) 2002 Patrick Ramsey (BUST, out of the league) 2003 Carson Palmer (was decent, no playoffs) 2003 Byron Leftwich (so-so, couldn't hang on with Jags... made playoffs as current back-up to Rothlisraper) 2003 Kyle Boller (career back-up, no playoffs) 2003 Rex Grossman (so-so, no playoffs) 2004 Eli Manning (franchise to some, no playoffs) 2004 Philip Rivers (franchise QB to most, no playoffs) 2004 Ben Roethlisraper (franchise to most, in playoffs) 2004 JP Loserman (BUST, but back-up in Seattle, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2005 Alex Smith (eh... no playoffs) 2005 Aaron Rodgers (franchise to some/most, still in playoffs) 2005 Jason Cambell (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Vince Young (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Matt Leinart (BUST, out of league) 2006 Jay Cutler (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2007 Jamarcus Russell (BUST, out of league) 2007 Brady Quinn (eh.. pretty much a bust, no playoffs) 2008 Matt Ryan (good QB, should be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2008 Joe Flacco (good QB, could be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2009 Matthew Stafford (decent QB, too early on him, no playoffs) 2009 Mark Sanchez (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2009 Josh Freeman (decent QB, no playoffs) 2010 Sam Bradford (good QB, no playoffs) 2010 Tim Tebow (no real playing time yet, no playoffs) So... there have been 35 1st round QB's taken and the 4 still remaining are split with two franchise/probable franchise QB's and two good/solid QB's. There are QB's up there with way better #'s, but yet these 4 remain... why??? Oh yeah, because they have 4 of the BEST DEFENSES in the damned league! Seems like you can have ALL sorts of "first round QB's", but only those with great D's seem to survive... Hello? Bueller? Good work. I will not split hairs on a few but the point is do your homework and get a QB in Rnd 1. This year, next year, some year or trade for one.
McD Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Lets see how many are still franchise QB's and 1st round picks: 1. Rothlisberger pick 10 I think 2. Sanchez pick #5 3. Cutler pick #12 or #13 4. Rodgers pick 20 or 22 (and could have been #1 if SF choose to go that route...was said to be very close between him and A. Smith) Hmm. so whether they are consider "franchise" QB's or not they all were 1st round picks and 3 of 4 in the top 15. We need one of these QB's. Period. We also need elite or very good players on D. Let Buddy do his job and if he messes it up, someone gets a try in 2013 or 2014. Good work. I will not split hairs on a few but the point is do your homework and get a QB in Rnd 1. This year, next year, some year or trade for one. On the bolded font above... what do you mean "top 15"?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 You do realize that his league is littered with complete and total busts at every single defensive postion as well right? You act like a first round QB is a guaranteed bust while a defensive or O Line player is very safe...the busts rates are not that much different. Funny how 75% of the QB's in the playoffs were taken in the first 32 picks. Let me paint you 2 different scenarios, and lets see what that looks like for the Bills of 2010. In each case we will use the exact same roster as we had but with one difference: Team A: This 2010 roster with the addition of which ever guy you think is the best DL in all of football...lets say Ngata for instance (or which ever one you think is best). OR Team B: This 2010 roster with the addition of one of the best QB's in football like Rodgers or Manning. Which team wins more games in 2010? Team A or Team B? Its not even a tough question...anyone with any common sense clearly knows that Team B hands down wins more games than Team A in 2010. Alphadawg, you've said this many times. It's clear you believe it very deeply, and in my opinion, no evidence offered is likely to change your mind. Detroit Lions. 2009. Draft Matt Stafford #1, widely regarded (and still) as a very promising young QB prospect. This improved them so much that in 2010, they earned the right to draft Ndamukong Suh, widely regarded as a very promising DT. Rams spent 3 drafts on OL, DL, then QB. They won more games after adding the QB, and improved to a record Bills fans distained under Jauron. Would they have won more if they added another DL? Perhaps not, but you see, they had already improved the line and the players had time to adjust to the NFL and the coaching system. So it really can't all be laid to the arm of the QB.
1B4IDie Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Let's go back to 1998 with the first round QB's... since Manning is still playing, seems to be a good year. 1998 Peyton Manning (franchise QB, made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 1998 Ryan Leaf (EPIC BUST) 1999 Tim Couch (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Donovan McNabb (no playoffs) 1999 Akili Smith (BUST, out of the league) 1999 Duante Culpepper (out of the league) 1999 Cade McNown (BUST, out of the league) 2000 Chad Pennington (out of the league) 2001 Michael Vick (franchise QB to some... made the playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2002 David Carr (BUST, no playoffs) 2002 Joey Harrington (Taken #3 overall, BUST, out of the league) 2002 Patrick Ramsey (BUST, out of the league) 2003 Carson Palmer (was decent, no playoffs) 2003 Byron Leftwich (so-so, couldn't hang on with Jags... made playoffs as current back-up to Rothlisraper) 2003 Kyle Boller (career back-up, no playoffs) 2003 Rex Grossman (so-so, no playoffs) 2004 Eli Manning (franchise to some, no playoffs) 2004 Philip Rivers (franchise QB to most, no playoffs) 2004 Ben Roethlisraper (franchise to most, in playoffs) 2004 JP Loserman (BUST, but back-up in Seattle, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2005 Alex Smith (eh... no playoffs) 2005 Aaron Rodgers (franchise to some/most, still in playoffs) 2005 Jason Cambell (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Vince Young (decent QB, no playoffs) 2006 Matt Leinart (BUST, out of league) 2006 Jay Cutler (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2007 Jamarcus Russell (BUST, out of league) 2007 Brady Quinn (eh.. pretty much a bust, no playoffs) 2008 Matt Ryan (good QB, should be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2008 Joe Flacco (good QB, could be a franchise QB someday, made playoffs, but ousted by a team with a great D) 2009 Matthew Stafford (decent QB, too early on him, no playoffs) 2009 Mark Sanchez (good/decent QB, still in playoffs) 2009 Josh Freeman (decent QB, no playoffs) 2010 Sam Bradford (good QB, no playoffs) 2010 Tim Tebow (no real playing time yet, no playoffs) So... there have been 35 1st round QB's taken and the 4 still remaining are split with two franchise/probable franchise QB's and two good/solid QB's. There are QB's up there with way better #'s, but yet these 4 remain... why??? Oh yeah, because they have 4 of the BEST DEFENSES in the damned league! Seems like you can have ALL sorts of "first round QB's", but only those with great D's seem to survive... Hello? Bueller? Which list do you think is going to be longer Front 7 busts or QB busts? Start with Erik Flowers up through Aaron Maybin. QBs just have a higher profile. Edited January 19, 2011 by Why So Serious?
Red Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I always have to laugh at these debates. "Offense wins games, but defense wins championships!" some shout. All garbage. It's a team game. Not a squad game, or positional game. A T-E-A-M game. You need a franchise QB just as much as you need a dominant defense, mauling offensive line, fast WR's, special teams, etc. Winning teams have it all. And maybe the light is shining on a new day in the NFL. Rodgers, Rothlesberger, Cutler, Sanchez. These are the new faces. Perhaps the torch is being handed down? Brady and Manning are not getting younger...
thewildrabbit Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I always have to laugh at these debates. "Offense wins games, but defense wins championships!" some shout. All garbage. It's a team game. Not a squad game, or positional game. A T-E-A-M game. You need a franchise QB just as much as you need a dominant defense, mauling offensive line, fast WR's, special teams, etc. Winning teams have it all. And maybe the light is shining on a new day in the NFL. Rodgers, Rothlesberger, Cutler, Sanchez. These are the new faces. Perhaps the torch is being handed down? Brady and Manning are not getting younger... The thing is. it looks like the best player at #3 will be a defensive linemen, which is good as the Bills need to give Kyle Williams some help in there stopping the run ( too bad moron DJ took Maybin instead of a real DLineman) OTOH, should Chan Gailey think Cam Newton or Jake Locker should be that #3 pick I'd have no problem with it because if anyone can teach that young kid the ropes its Chan Gailey. Fitz is decent for now but he will always throw that INT, plus the guy just isn't a winner. The Bills still need that franchise QB at some point, perhaps Andrew Luck next year
billsfreak Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) So, down goes Manning, down goes Brees, down goes Flacco, down goes Vick, down goes Ryan, down goes Brady.... To all of you that think we NEED a QB at #3 this year (none worthy at #3), once again... here is a CLASSIC example of the need for a solid defense. This years defenses prove once again, that a top D is the tonic this team needs. It will give this team the attitude this team and city needs. You want to grab a QB in the third? Ok... no issues, but that better be after a selection of a DE/DT and a LB. Buddy... SOLIDIFY the D through the draft AND through FA. Don't bank on Merriman being "the man"... he's an unknown at this time. Go draft help, go pay the $$ for FA help... The O can use an RT an TE and some depth too... BUT... I hope you're paying attention this post season... D, D, D, D, D, D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up goes Rogers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez & Cutler, all franchise quarterbacks, so please your argument holds no weight. And you are right all those franchise quarterbacks you listed have lost in the playoffs, but they are for the most part the reason their teams got to the postseason to begin with, something we haven't done since Flutie left. No team will ever even be slightly competitive with any of the QBs on our roster at this current time. Not saying Defense isn't important at all, but QB is the most important position on a team and it isn't even arguable. Besides the QBs you listed Brady (3 rings), Flacco (playoffs every year in the league), Brees (one ring)had nothign to do with their loss to Seattle, he played great, their defense was pathetic, Ryan is now what 23-3 at home in his career, it takes us 7 or 8 years to win 23 games-they had nothing to do with any of the success by your argument. Edited January 19, 2011 by billsfreak
Albany,n.y. Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Counting this year 5 of the last 6 Super Bowls have been won by a team quarterbacked by a 1st rounder, and the 6th was QB'd by a guy picked at #32, which nowadays would also be in the 1st round. You can always shave years off or add years, but the bottom line is that in 45 Super Bowls (since this year is guaranteed to have a 1st rounder win), the winning team was QB'd by a 1st rounder at least 57% of the time and when you add in Phil Simms, who contributed to the season but didn't start in the game it goes up to 60%. Even the losing team was QB'd 38% of the time by a 1st rounder. So of all the teams to get to the Super Bowl, 48% were QB'd by a 1st rounder. Now just imagine how many quarterbacks who weren't 1st rounders have started in the NFL over the last 45 years and the case is overwhelming that you are much more likely to win the conference & the Super Bowl with a 1st round pick. Also, the case is overwhelming for the 1st pick in the draft, which isn't always a QB. 29% of all Super Bowls have been won by a team with a QB who was the 1st pick in the entire draft. Considering that every year over 200 players are taken, that stat, combined with the rest of the SB winning QB stats, just blows away anyone who doesn't think teams are built around the QB & not the other way around. Sure you can find a Brady or Warner, but they are few & far between. Edited January 19, 2011 by Albany,n.y.
Orton's Arm Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Alphadawg, you've said this many times. It's clear you believe it very deeply, and in my opinion, no evidence offered is likely to change your mind. Detroit Lions. 2009. Draft Matt Stafford #1, widely regarded (and still) as a very promising young QB prospect. This improved them so much that in 2010, they earned the right to draft Ndamukong Suh, widely regarded as a very promising DT. Rams spent 3 drafts on OL, DL, then QB. They won more games after adding the QB, and improved to a record Bills fans distained under Jauron. Would they have won more if they added another DL? Perhaps not, but you see, they had already improved the line and the players had time to adjust to the NFL and the coaching system. So it really can't all be laid to the arm of the QB. Alphadawg has said that a lot of times, and he's right! You mentioned Matt Stafford. In his rookie year, he averaged 6.0 yards per attempt. That declined to 5.6 yards per attempt his second year. To put those numbers in perspective, Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per attempt. Maybe the Lions will start receiving good QB play from Stafford someday. They aren't getting good (or even decent) performance from their QB now. That lack of good QB play is one of the most important reasons why they were in a position to draft Suh; and why they will have a very early pick in this draft. Alphadawg's point was that if you dramatically improve the quality of your QB play, you'll make more of a difference to your win/loss record than if you dramatically improve the quality of play you're getting from one of your DL positions. That point is absolutely correct.
McD Posted January 20, 2011 Author Posted January 20, 2011 Up goes Rogers, Roethlisberger, Sanchez & Cutler, all franchise quarterbacks, so please your argument holds no weight. And you are right (I know, thank you) all those franchise quarterbacks you listed have lost in the playoffs, but they are for the most part the reason their teams got to the postseason to begin with, something we haven't done since Flutie left. No team will ever even be slightly competitive with any of the QBs on our roster at this current time. Not saying Defense isn't important at all, but QB is the most important position on a team (never said it wasn't) and it isn't even arguable. Besides the QBs you listed Brady (3 rings), Flacco (playoffs every year in the league) (AND Balt's defense), Brees (one ring) had nothign to do with their loss to Seattle, he played great, their defense was pathetic (so you help my cause by sayinf a "franchise QB lost, BUT it was because his defense played horrible! HA HA HA! That's EXACTLY what I've been saying!!!) Ryan is now what 23-3 at home in his career, it takes us 7 or 8 years to win 23 games (And our D has SUCKED during this time, but yet we have a QB this year that has better stats than the mighty Jay Cutler AND Mark Sanchez, YET you still keep clamoring for a QB when the real problem with this team right now is on D!)-they had nothing to do with any of the success by your argument. (MY argument, if you ever bothered to read it, was that we DON'T NEED to reach for a QB at #3 because I don't think they ones available are worthy of a #3) Lets pretend those teams didn't have great defenses. And how is Sanchez and Cutler franchise QB's if Fitz isn't? Fitz has better stats than Sanchez and equal to Cutler... and he did it with NO real preseason prep with the rest of the starters and he didn't play in 3 or 4 games. You have no clue to what you're talking about. This is comical... Alphadawg has said that a lot of times, and he's right! You mentioned Matt Stafford. In his rookie year, he averaged 6.0 yards per attempt. That declined to 5.6 yards per attempt his second year. To put those numbers in perspective, Trent Edwards' career average is 6.5 yards per attempt. Maybe the Lions will start receiving good QB play from Stafford someday. They aren't getting good (or even decent) performance from their QB now. That lack of good QB play is one of the most important reasons why they were in a position to draft Suh; and why they will have a very early pick in this draft. Alphadawg's point was that if you dramatically improve the quality of your QB play, you'll make more of a difference to your win/loss record than if you dramatically improve the quality of play you're getting from one of your DL positions. That point is absolutely correct. This isn't a slight, but no ****. But lets also look at our beloved Bills. We upgraded our QB play (maybe not dramatically, but it was an upgrade), however we did NOT improve our record. I know we need balance... people here keep thinking I don't value QB play.. THEY'RE WRONG! I do value it, BUT we need balance too. Fitz works for now, but we don't have adequate D play. WE need playmakers on both sides of the ball, but we have so very few on D. Draft D and more D. This is the essence of my post! Which list do you think is going to be longer Front 7 busts or QB busts? Start with Erik Flowers up through Aaron Maybin. QBs just have a higher profile. You don't want to go here do you? You do realize that a team will carry WAY more D lineman/front 7 guys than they will QB's right? Therefore, there will be WAY more D lineman/front 7 guys drafted and theoretically have more players counted as BUSTS. You aren't that ignorant. But... go ahead and do some research... find the biggest BUSTS of all time. You'll find a good mix of players and positions, but if there were 5 QB's and 5 D Line guys, then the %'s would tell the real tale as probably twice as many D line guys are selected than QB's. I've seen many of these "lists" the past few days and they are littered with QB's. Again, because you seem to have lost any clue to what my original argument was... we have a QB... Andrew Luck isn't there... we prob wont find a trade partner, and no other QB should be taken at #3... draft the hell out of D, we have holes everywhere on D... fill them, and not with bondo patches, but with real no **** steel. Do it right OBD.
McD Posted January 20, 2011 Author Posted January 20, 2011 Here's some articles for you.... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/galleries/nfls_biggest_draft_busts/nfls_biggest_draft_busts.html http://bleacherreport.com/articles/389546-the-nfls-10-biggest-draft-busts http://www.xtrapointfootball.com/20100321280/2010-archives/march/nfl-draft-busts-top-50.html http://www.nfl.com/news/story?confirm=true&id=09000d5d817ff891&template=with-video-with-comments http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/news/story?id=3325687 These lists are EVERYWHERE... OMG too damned easy.
bbb Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Here's some articles for you.... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/galleries/nfls_biggest_draft_busts/nfls_biggest_draft_busts.html http://bleacherreport.com/articles/389546-the-nfls-10-biggest-draft-busts http://www.xtrapointfootball.com/20100321280/2010-archives/march/nfl-draft-busts-top-50.html http://www.nfl.com/news/story?confirm=true&id=09000d5d817ff891&template=with-video-with-comments http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/news/story?id=3325687 These lists are EVERYWHERE... OMG too damned easy. Shouldn't these lists be titled the most famous busts of all time? Why would Lawrence Philips at number 6 and Andre Ware be bigger busts than the busts at higher picks?
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