Red Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Clearly he sets a nice baord which is why they get good production late. He is not responsible when Dickie j reaches for Whitner, mcargo , and Maybin to fill his need for lite fast defenders Dude, you just don't get it. Nobody "reaches". Information that these players would be good contributors at the Pro level indicates somebody got it wrong. Dickie J does not scout. modrak does. Also, getting UNDRAFTED free agents to become studs is a far cry from striking what should be gold on 1st round picks...especially when selected in the Top 10. I don't know how that that does not make sense.
bkc Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Dude, you just don't get it. Nobody "reaches". Information that these players would be good contributors at the Pro level indicates somebody got it wrong. Dickie J does not scout. modrak does. Also, getting UNDRAFTED free agents to become studs is a far cry from striking what should be gold on 1st round picks...especially when selected in the Top 10. I don't know how that that does not make sense. Modrak does not make the picks , you have no idea where he stacks some of these guys on the board. He could have Whitner as his first or second safety but his 35th overall player , how is it his fault if Dickie j goes off the the chart to fill a need.
Red Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Modrak does not make the picks , you have no idea where he stacks some of these guys on the board. He could have Whitner as his first or second safety but his 35th overall player , how is it his fault if Dickie j goes off the the chart to fill a need. Which falls back to my other point...if Modrak's scouting information on particular players is not worthy of said player being selected, then what value does Modrak have to the team? You see, you can't have it both ways. Modrak can't be innocent of the past decade of poor draft picks (despite 4 different regimes calling the shots now), and somehow be valuable in scouting our selections. Could Jauron have really screwed the pooch? Sure. But that's 1 regime. You simply can't claim that the same consistently poorly scouted players from 4 different regimes are independent of each other. What, so next you're going to tell me that John Guy got a raw deal, that the quality of free agent "gems" Guy was bringing in was worthy of his continued employment? Modrak is a holdover from the previously disposed Donahoe regime. I think the only reason Ralph keeps him in the "brain trust" is because of his reputation with Philadephia (which is also baffling because even with Reggie White, the Eagles never won anything with that Modrak compiled talent). I just don't understand why you continue to give him a free pass... Edited January 11, 2011 by Red
Dirtbag Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Here's a hypothetical. Let's say Modrak really is The Genius at player evaluation and has correctly identified and graded every superstar player available for the Bills picks over the last 10 years. In other words, if the Bills had listened, they'd have drafted 60 to 70 excellent to dominant players. Yet, given the results, one would have to surmise that no one in the Bills front office ever listens to The Genius, the ultimate talent evaluator who's draft board is never wrong. What does that tell you? Why would a team pay The Genius and then when it comes down to making the final decisions flat out ignore him? Why would The Genius continue to work in such a situation anyway? Why wouldn't he go out and drum up another job where they actually took him for something other than a joke? I mean it would be like getting dunked and given a swirly every year by your boss. terrific post. modrak is either 1.) an impotent genius who's constantly overruled by opposing forces (and apparently unwilling or unable to battle for his picks), or 2.) mediocre at talent evaluation. if 1 is true, i don't understand why he would stay with the organization. if 2 is true i don't understand why he hasn't been fired.
Red Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 terrific post. modrak is either 1.) an impotent genius who's constantly overruled by opposing forces (and apparently unwilling or unable to battle for his picks), or 2.) mediocre at talent evaluation. if 1 is true, i don't understand why he would stay with the organization. if 2 is true i don't understand why he hasn't been fired. This is what I have been saying for 2 years.... Brilliant post. Here's a hypothetical. Let's say Modrak really is The Genius at player evaluation and has correctly identified and graded every superstar player available for the Bills picks over the last 10 years. In other words, if the Bills had listened, they'd have drafted 60 to 70 excellent to dominant players. Yet, given the results, one would have to surmise that no one in the Bills front office ever listens to The Genius, the ultimate talent evaluator who's draft board is never wrong. What does that tell you? Why would a team pay The Genius and then when it comes down to making the final decisions flat out ignore him? Why would The Genius continue to work in such a situation anyway? Why wouldn't he go out and drum up another job where they actually took him for something other than a joke? I mean it would be like getting dunked and given a swirly every year by your boss. Sisyphean...thank you for getting it! Now if only we could convert these Modrak defending boobs... ...and I'm a boob man...just not the Modrak defending kind.
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Clearly he sets a nice baord which is why they get good production late. He is not responsible when Dickie j reaches for Whitner, mcargo , and Maybin to fill his need for lite fast defenders Once again, it should be pointed out that somebody has to play the games. It simply is not a feather in anyone's cap that the picks are so terrible in the first few rounds year after year that the Bills are forced to start UDFAs and guys plucked off of taxi squads across the league. Every team has role players that are young, cheap, and play and aren't 1st rounders. Every single team. Why is the fact the Bills rely more heavily on these sorts of players than other teams considered a hallmark of a "solid" to "superior" college scouting department? It isn't. Here is what Modrak did before he got himself fired in Philadelphia 2001 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 25 Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA 2 55 Quinton Caver LB Arkansas 3 63 Derrick Burgess DE Mississippi 4 121 Correll Buckhalter RB Nebraska 5 147 Tony Stewart TE Penn State 5 155 A.J. Feeley QB Oregon 2000 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 6 Corey Simon DT Florida State 2 36 Todd Pinkston WR Southern Mississippi 2 61 Bobbie Williams G Arkansas 4 99 Gari Scott WR Michigan State 6 171 Thomas Hamner RB Minnesota 6 178 John Frank -- Utah 6 192 John Romero -- California 1999 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 2 Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse 2 35 Barry Gardner OLB Northwestern 3 64 Doug Brzezinski G Boston College 4 97 John Welbourn T California 4 128 Damon Moore SS Ohio State 4 130 Na Brown WR North Carolina 6 172 Cecil Martin FB Wisconsin 6 201 Troy Smith WR East Carolina 7 208 Jed Weaver TE Oregon 7 251 Pernell Davis DT Alabama-Birmingham
bkc Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Which falls back to my other point...if Modrak's scouting information on particular players is not worthy of said player being selected, then what value does Modrak have to the team? You see, you can't have it both ways. Modrak can't be innocent of the past decade of poor draft picks (despite 4 different regimes calling the shots now), and somehow be valuable in scouting our selections. Could Jauron have really screwed the pooch? Sure. But that's 1 regime. You simply can't claim that the same consistently poorly scouted players from 4 different regimes are independent of each other. What, so next you're going to tell me that John Guy got a raw deal, that the quality of free agent "gems" Guy was bringing in was worthy of his continued employment? Modrak is a holdover from the previously disposed Donahoe regime. I think the only reason Ralph keeps him in the "brain trust" is because of his reputation with Philadephia (which is also baffling because even with Reggie White, the Eagles never won anything with that Modrak compiled talent). I just don't understand why you continue to give him a free pass... again if someone decides to take the 35th best player on his board at number 8 to fill a need how is this his fault there is no debate tht donahue and Buddy make their own picks , so that leaves the Jauron era opens for debate, that era is were you get the most head scratchers , whitner , mccargo,maybin
Orton's Arm Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Once again, it should be pointed out that somebody has to play the games. It simply is not a feather in anyone's cap that the picks are so terrible in the first few rounds year after year that the Bills are forced to start UDFAs and guys plucked off of taxi squads across the league. Every team has role players that are young, cheap, and play and aren't 1st rounders. Every single team. Why is the fact the Bills rely more heavily on these sorts of players than other teams considered a hallmark of a "solid" to "superior" college scouting department? It isn't. Here is what Modrak did before he got himself fired in Philadelphia 2001 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 25 Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA 2 55 Quinton Caver LB Arkansas 3 63 Derrick Burgess DE Mississippi 4 121 Correll Buckhalter RB Nebraska 5 147 Tony Stewart TE Penn State 5 155 A.J. Feeley QB Oregon 2000 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 6 Corey Simon DT Florida State 2 36 Todd Pinkston WR Southern Mississippi 2 61 Bobbie Williams G Arkansas 4 99 Gari Scott WR Michigan State 6 171 Thomas Hamner RB Minnesota 6 178 John Frank -- Utah 6 192 John Romero -- California 1999 - Philadelphia Eagles 1 2 Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse 2 35 Barry Gardner OLB Northwestern 3 64 Doug Brzezinski G Boston College 4 97 John Welbourn T California 4 128 Damon Moore SS Ohio State 4 130 Na Brown WR North Carolina 6 172 Cecil Martin FB Wisconsin 6 201 Troy Smith WR East Carolina 7 208 Jed Weaver TE Oregon 7 251 Pernell Davis DT Alabama-Birmingham Thanks for putting this list together. I don't claim to be ultra-familiar with the Eagles roster of the early 2000s, but very few of those names seem like success stories to me. The only one that really jumped out at me is Donovan McNabb. His career yards per attempt is 6.9--which is fairly solid, but doesn't suggest elite play. It's also worth noting that Mike Ditka had tried to trade up with the Eagles so he could take Ricky Williams; and that the Eagles refused. Ditka offered a king's ransom to move up a few slots. But the Eagles were in love with McNabb, and hence turned Ditka down. I think the argument could easily be made that the Eagles could have gotten more out of the Ditka/Ricky Williams deal than they would have had by staying put and taking McNabb. Then again, for the Ricky Williams deal to have been successful, the Eagles would have had to have been able to turn their extra draft picks into good players. It's not necessarily clear Modrak could do that.
thewildrabbit Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) I specifically do take issue with the positions the Bills draft!! Since 2001, the Bills have done the following: Used three first round picks and a second round pick on RBs. Used another three first round picks on DBs. Have drafted just one QB in the first round. Have drafted zero LTs and just one RT in the first round; and no OTs in the second round. Have drafted no DEs in the first round. (I consider Maybin an OLB.) Have drafted just one DT or NT in the first round, and only one in the second. Suppose a man was to walk up to the owner of an NFL team, put his arm around the owner's shoulder, and begin talking about his ten year plan for that owner's team. "I see today that your team has no quarterback," the man would say. "At the end of this ten year plan it still won't have one. But during those ten years I'll use three first round picks and a second rounder on running backs!!! :w00t: Plus I'll use three first rounders on DBs, even though the other part of my plan is to allow whichever of my DBs have the best combination of youth + proven accomplishment to leave via free agency when their rookie contracts expire. I don't see the sense in using first or second round picks on OTs--even though this team doesn't have any good OTs--because those picks could better be used on running backs!! " If a plan such as the above looks like a bad idea in hindsight--as well it should--then it ought to have seemed like a bad idea at the time as well. There were many on this list who argued against the above-described mistakes as they were being made. Those people were right, those mistakes were avoidable, and they would have been avoided by better, more mentally self-disciplined front office personnel. I consider the OT positions both more important, and harder-to-fill, than interior OL positions (especially OG). So the fact that the Bills used a first and second rounder on a pair of OGs does not make up for their neglect of the OT positions--especially not when the earlier of those two picks was obtained by trading away the best player on the Bills' OL in the first place! On any other NFL team the man responsible for the last ten years of bad drafting would have been fired and replaced like 6 times, only Detroit with Matt Millen has shown more ineptitude the last decade. The buck stops at the top, and that is the current president of the Buffalo Bills. No real change will take place until the fans stop buying tickets and the stadium stops selling out game after game. I honestly don't understand how Bills fans can keep endorsing this mess of a franchise. RW may not be the richest or the winning est, but he is the smartest owner in the league to hire such a brilliant marketing team to keep fans buying into a loser for so long, I can only imagine the next move will be to draft Cam Newton... Edited January 11, 2011 by Harvey lives
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Thanks for putting this list together. I don't claim to be ultra-familiar with the Eagles roster of the early 2000s, but very few of those names seem like success stories to me. The only one that really jumped out at me is Donovan McNabb. His career yards per attempt is 6.9--which is fairly solid, but doesn't suggest elite play. It's also worth noting that Mike Ditka had tried to trade up with the Eagles so he could take Ricky Williams; and that the Eagles refused. Ditka offered a king's ransom to move up a few slots. But the Eagles were in love with McNabb, and hence turned Ditka down. I think the argument could easily be made that the Eagles could have gotten more out of the Ditka/Ricky Williams deal than they would have had by staying put and taking McNabb. Then again, for the Ricky Williams deal to have been successful, the Eagles would have had to have been able to turn their extra draft picks into good players. It's not necessarily clear Modrak could do that. Why I posted his record in Philly was because it is lackluster. There is the McNabb pick, of course. But, other than that it's a bunch of backups, busts, and role players. The same sort of players that the Bills have collected on his watch and which the Modrak apologists seem to want to give him praise for finding. Like I posted earlier, maybe he is The Genius, but if that is the case there was no one listening to him in Philadelphia, Donahoe didn't listen to him, Levy didn't listen to him, Brandon didn't seem to listen to him, and we can't say Buddy's first draft was a ginormous success story either. When can we say these results are at least a trend if not typical and representative?
Dirtbag Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Why I posted his record in Philly was because it is lackluster. There is the McNabb pick, of course. But, other than that it's a bunch of backups, busts, and role players. The same sort of players that the Bills have collected on his watch and which the Modrak apologists seem to want to give him praise for finding. Like I posted earlier, maybe he is The Genius, but if that is the case there was no one listening to him in Philadelphia, Donahoe didn't listen to him, Levy didn't listen to him, Brandon didn't seem to listen to him, and we can't say Buddy's first draft was a ginormous success story either. When can we say these results are at least a trend if not typical and representative? the saddest part is that you even had to reference his philly years, rather than just point to his clear record of abject failure in buffalo. that's how beaten down we've become. that's how comfortable we've become with accepting mediocrity and ineptitude (and even defending it). it shouldn't be this way. we've had ten years of this guy's influence in buffalo and nothing has changed. there are literally zero positions that are currently untouchable on our team. we can pretty much draft almost any position on the field since so many are in need of a dramatic upgrade. if that's not an indictment of the modrak years, i don't know what is. Edited January 11, 2011 by Dirtbag
Hplarrm Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 I specifically do take issue with the positions the Bills draft!! Since 2001, the Bills have done the following: Used three first round picks and a second round pick on RBs. Used another three first round picks on DBs. Have drafted just one QB in the first round. Have drafted zero LTs and just one RT in the first round; and no OTs in the second round. Have drafted no DEs in the first round. (I consider Maybin an OLB.) Have drafted just one DT or NT in the first round, and only one in the second. Suppose a man was to walk up to the owner of an NFL team, put his arm around the owner's shoulder, and begin talking about his ten year plan for that owner's team. "I see today that your team has no quarterback," the man would say. "At the end of this ten year plan it still won't have one. But during those ten years I'll use three first round picks and a second rounder on running backs!!! :w00t: Plus I'll use three first rounders on DBs, even though the other part of my plan is to allow whichever of my DBs have the best combination of youth + proven accomplishment to leave via free agency when their rookie contracts expire. I don't see the sense in using first or second round picks on OTs--even though this team doesn't have any good OTs--because those picks could better be used on running backs!! " If a plan such as the above looks like a bad idea in hindsight--as well it should--then it ought to have seemed like a bad idea at the time as well. There were many on this list who argued against the above-described mistakes as they were being made. Those people were right, those mistakes were avoidable, and they would have been avoided by better, more mentally self-disciplined front office personnel. I consider the OT positions both more important, and harder-to-fill, than interior OL positions (especially OG). So the fact that the Bills used a first and second rounder on a pair of OGs does not make up for their neglect of the OT positions--especially not when the earlier of those two picks was obtained by trading away the best player on the Bills' OL in the first place! \\You make a pretty compelling case here that the man who has hired Modrak and empowered him time and again to scout the draft is really the one at fault here for the Bills problems,
Gabe Northern Posted January 11, 2011 Author Posted January 11, 2011 you have no idea where he stacks some of these guys on the board. Are you just brainstorming arguments to defend Modrak, or do you honestly believe this nonsense? This isn't about one or two bad picks. This is about 65 draft selections over a 9 year period that have left us with arguably the least talented roster in football. Either you think Modrak is responsible for this mess, or you think the draft team summarily dismisses the work of the guy hired to scout, evaluate, grade, and rank every draft eligible player each year.
Gabe Northern Posted January 11, 2011 Author Posted January 11, 2011 Clearly he sets a nice baord which is why they get good production late. He is not responsible when Dickie j reaches for Whitner, mcargo , and Maybin to fill his need for lite fast defenders He doesn't get good production late. This is totally false. Top teams routinely draft solid contributors from Rounds 3-5. Here's the complete list of solid NFL starters Modrak has drafted in that range: 2003: Crowell, McGee 2006: Butler, Kyle Williams 2010: Moats (as of now looks decent) That's it. The rest of the guys from those rounds who've started have been stop-gaps who've been replaced at the first opportunity. If you want to cite Stevie Johnson and other guys drafted in late rounds, these are like lottery tickets. You have to measure them against all of the other 6/7th rounders and UDFAs signed that don't work out. Hitting on 1 out of 100 of these guys is not "good production."
ColdBlueNorth Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 The thing I think is naive is to not seem to recognize that even if one stipulates as an unassailable fact that Modrak sucks (or that Jauron sucks or that Levy sucks, or whomever, the buck clearly must stop with one guy who is to blame for a decade plus without the playoffs, This is Mr, Ralph! I mean get a clue. Who has been in charge for the entire decade plus whether it was Butler leading a toxic final draft, TD stepping in to lead the team only to deserve by all assessments to get canned, or Levy stepping in a first time GM who was only up to the job for 2 years, or any of the series of failures at HC from Gregg Williams, to Mularkey to Jauron, From my standpoint any article which tries to lay the blame for our failures on Modrak without flat out recognizing that it is Mr. Ralph who had retained and empowered Modrak again and again is simply bad reporting. Even going back past a decade for the seeds of the current disaster it really starts and pretty much ends with recognizing Mr. Ralph completely bollicksed the relationship with Polian and then with Butler. If you want to point to his exercising his owner's right to meddle but doing so poorly with horrendous football judgment it starts with him making a handshake deal to reward Jimbo in his next contract and him not recognizing that Jimbo was done. This led directly to the stretch to take TC rushing him to start and a litany of QB miscues through Losman/Edwards. Blaming Modrak is simply bad reporting not because he is good but because as bad as anyone wants to claim he is then the blame must go to the guy who keeps hiring and empowering this idiot, Honest reporting gives Mr. Ralph kudos for keeping the team here, but also indicts him and only him as the guy who the buck stops with. Wow. Ralphy is like 200 years old or something... I sincerely wonder if Ralph even knows when it is time to change his depends let alone has time to evaluate potential players in the draft. Have you seen this guy lately in front of the cameras... he is dazed, confused, and meanders down memory lane a lot. Has Ralph meddled in the past - what owner hasn't, but I truly believe this is a bone that has been picked clean. He "plays" tennis, or someone lobs balls at his racket, he attends charity events, spends much of his time in Florida sleeping or whatever "active" retired folk do when they are about to hit the century mark.
Dirtbag Posted January 11, 2011 Posted January 11, 2011 Wow. Ralphy is like 200 years old or something... I sincerely wonder if Ralph even knows when it is time to change his depends let alone has time to evaluate potential players in the draft. Have you seen this guy lately in front of the cameras... he is dazed, confused, and meanders down memory lane a lot. Has Ralph meddled in the past - what owner hasn't, but I truly believe this is a bone that has been picked clean. He "plays" tennis, or someone lobs balls at his racket, he attends charity events, spends much of his time in Florida sleeping or whatever "active" retired folk do when they are about to hit the century mark. given the bills' (mostly) dismal track record on coaches and general managers, ralph's ability to spot football management talent is, to put it generously, questionable at best. (that said, his ability to find marketing talent is exceptional.) and as he gets older, it's clear that he wants to stick with people he knows, which probably explains modrak's continued tenure at one bills drive. it's not terribly surprising -- as you say, dude is almost a century old. it's not exactly a time of experimentation. still, the idea that ralph is out there scouting players and working phones on draft day seems ludicrous -- the old man sequestered in his detroit war room, slamming coffee, grinding through bowl games in fevered, desperate pursuit of the next jim kelly or thurman thomas. even if i'm completely wrong here and ralph is actively drafting players, someone had to unearth maybin for him. there's no way he came upon that horrendous pick on his own.
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