Fear of Coaching at TBD

[Hapless Bills Fan]

OK, let me say up front: I have never done this kind of deep dive into another team's coaching staff.

So I rely on you, my fellow "up against the Stadium Wall" friends, to help me: is this typical, or off the reservation?

 

Bottom line: most of our coaches and assistants are strongly connected to Gailey either through his tenure at the Chiefs, or his tenure at Georgia Tech.

I suspect this is typical around the NFL: head coaches bring in people whose work they know and respect and build loyalty by giving opportunity for a "step".

The good news: the staff presumably works well with and is willing to be led by Chan.

The bad news: since Chan hadn't been a HC since '99, we have minimal NFL experience and a lot of assistant coaches with Georgia Tech ties.

 

Potential problem: we have a bunch of assistant coaches on the DC side who are tied more tightly to Chan than to Edwards; only the DB coach Catavolos has ties to Edwards.

The OLB coach knew Chan in Mia and lost his job to Edwards; The DL coach is from GTech and has no prior experience in the NFL. If you've got an in with my boss, do I feel free to critique or even direct? How well is dissent handled? I'm told all head coaches are born control freaks, but Chan is an offensive-minded coach and needs a strong DC.

Does Edwards suck, or does he lack a free hand with most of his ass'ts tied to Chan more than to him? It can be a "CLM" to dish the buds of the boss.

 

The firing: Demontie Cross, ILB coach, was the only DA without prior ties to Chan or Edwards.

Was he not working well with the team/not doing his job well? He's one of two Fewell coaching holdovers; did he speak out too freely about problems this year?

Or was he fired because a sacrificial goat was needed and he's the guy who lacked the "previous colleague" card?

 

The question: Do our coaches really know what it takes to excel in the NFL or even to win, both in the prep. the coaches must put in or the prep. of the players?

If not, how can we get there from here?

 

Of all the units on our team, I would say the QB and WRs have made the biggest step up. Coincidence that those are the coaches who were apparently brought in on merit?

 

Our D and O coaching staff. Ties to Gailey are bolded; Ties to Edwards in italics.

Nix - OC for Chiefs '08, GTech '02-07, OC for Mia '00-01, HC Dal '98-99

Offensive Staff

OC: Modkins Den RB '09 Chiefs RB '08 GTech DB, RB '02-07

TE: Bicknell Chiefs OL/TE '07-09, Temple '06, NFL Europe OC '04-'05

QB: Cortez CFL 18 years

OL: D'Alessandris Chiefs '08-09 GTech '02-07

asst OL: Bobby Johnson IU '05-'09

WR: Hixon Wash '04-'09, LSU '00-'03

QC/scouting: Patullo Chiefs QC '07-08 UAriz '04-06

DC: G. Edwards Mia LB '05-09, Cle LB '04, Wash DC '03, Dal LB '98-01

DB: Catavolos Buf DB '06-10, Det '04-05, Wash '02-'03

ILB: Cross Buf LB/ass't '06-'10, IowaSt '01-'05

OLB: Sanders Buf '09-'10, GB DC '06-08 LB '05, Mia LB '01-04

DL: Gif Smith Buf '10, GTech '04-09

QC/scouting: White Buf ''08-'10

 

Personal knowledge is a time-honored method of talent acquisition.

It works when the decision makers know 'the best'. It's an epic fail when the only talent personally known to the decision makers is 2nd rate.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Awesome post. Great thesis and (I think) research.

 

Totally valid points.

 

Legitimate critical perspective coming from a poster who is always balanced.

 

I wish I could refute your work, but I can't.

[BillsVet]

Demontie Cross had never worked in a 34 before, yet inexplicably was tabbed to coach ILB's in the scheme. Of the other DJ holdovers, at least OLB coach Bob Sanders had coordinated a 34 and Catavolos has been around for years. IIRC, Cross was relying heavily in the off-season on Andra Davis' knowledge to help him transition. That's not a good sign.

 

It's obvious to see most of the these guys, especially on offense, are Chan's boys. None of them are proven at the level they're coaching at, and I don't think some of them would be in the NFL without the HC.

Edited January 9, 2011 by BillsVet

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Awesome post. Great thesis and (I think) research.

 

Totally valid points.

 

Legitimate critical perspective coming from a poster who is always balanced.

 

I wish I could refute your work, but I can't.

 

Thanks for the kind words SJBF. It's all off the Buffalo Bills website and hopefully I captured it right.

 

I don't know if it's valid. Just because a guy is new to a job doesn't mean he can't do it, maybe as well or better than a vet

 

I do think it's legitimately worrisome that we seem to have coaches with minimal NFL experience (and not with winners) trying to take players with minimal NFL experience up a level. I can't help thinking there's an element of "blind leading the blind" there.

 

But I've never looked at the coaching staff of a team that's successfully "turned it around" and maybe I'm off base.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Demontie Cross had never worked in a 34 before, yet inexplicably was tabbed to coach ILB's in the scheme. Of the other DJ holdovers, at least OLB coach Bob Sanders had coordinated a 34 and Catavolos has been around for years. IIRC, Cross was relying heavily in the off-season on Andra Davis' knowledge to help him transition. That's not a good sign.

 

Interesting gouge BillsVet!

 

Couple questions: Do you know what scheme Georgia Tech ran under Gailey? That's the primary experience of the Bills DL coach. This seems a bit concerning as DC has a LB coach background and Bills otherwise seem rather thin on DL experience.

 

Also, what's the word on Sanders? The Packers D improved markedly from 2006 to 2007. Was he the fall guy for injuries or did he deserve to go?

 

It's obvious to see most of the these guys, especially on offense, are Chan's boys. None of them are proven at the level they're coaching at, and I don't think some of them would be in the NFL without the HC.

 

I knew most of the offensive assistants were Chan's buds. What surprised me when I looked was how deeply that was true of the D assistants as well. If anything sometimes more true - pretty clear Gif Smith owes his NFL chance to Gailey.

[JPS]

Maybe Ralph wanted some accountability for the crappy defense and it landed on Cross. Considering the Bills defensive performance, who cares?

[BillsVet]

Interesting gouge BillsVet!

 

Couple questions: Do you know what scheme Georgia Tech ran under Gailey? That's the primary experience of the Bills DL coach. This seems a bit concerning as DC has a LB coach background and Bills otherwise seem rather thin on DL experience.

 

Also, what's the word on Sanders? The Packers D improved markedly from 2006 to 2007. Was he the fall guy for injuries or did he deserve to go?

 

 

 

I knew most of the offensive assistants were Chan's buds. What surprised me when I looked was how deeply that was true of the D assistants as well. If anything sometimes more true - pretty clear Gif Smith owes his NFL chance to Gailey.

 

I'm not an expert on the Chan years at GT, but there is someone here who is more of an authority. He was fairly mediocre at GT, but on the surface recruited some pretty decent talent. Bob Sanders was fired after the 2008 season when GB went 6-10 after advancing to the NFC title game the season before.

[sllib olaffub]

I am glad you made this post, because it give me a chance to suggest this: I am most critical of this team in a few ways - one, their apparent poor handling of personnel, and two, their almost complete failure to bring in good, highly regarded, coaches.

 

Now, I like some of what this team is doing, and I feel if they draft good, and are serious in bringing in good F.A.'s, then we might stand a chance. But, this second part needs to happen, too.

 

I've said it a few times over the last year and a half. Teams have shown that you can bring in a new D.C. and install a new scheme, and even if the team, at that point, isn't suited to the new scheme, there are defensive coordinators who've made it work. Green Bay, Denver and Miami both come to mind.

So, I cannot stand using Edward's lack of NFL experience and our team's misfitted players as excuses for being bad. If Edwards wasn't projected as being potentially an elite coordinator, why did they bring him in in the first place? And, if the personnel wans't right, why didn't they pursue better replacements in the offseason?

 

Now, Houston Texans ran a similar defense as we did with Jauron. With Wade Phillips - a respected D.C. - going in and taking over, we can see with a very similar set-up what fans should expect a defense to look like in year one of a similar rebuild. I'm guessing he does a heck of a lot better of a job than Edwards did with our team this year.

 

Still, we have a new season approaching. I don't know how highly regarded Edwards was - I hope he's a genius waiting to turn into the next highly coveted D.C. But, if our defense is poor again next year, or even merely average - I will be ever closer to giving up on this franchise as one with serious aspirations for being elite. I mean, it seems, so often, that our owner merely wants to keep making a buck, and that he has this "we're inferior, we cannot compete" mentality about not being serious about bringing in a championship caliber staff and players. I hope he proves me wrong soon.

Anyway, I think we got shorted with Edwards, and Green Bay and Denver were enough for me to think so, but I'm betting the Texans prove it yet again. We should have someone better running the show.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Jon Tenuta was the DC at Tech under Gailey. More recently, he was at Notre Dame under Weis. He runs an aggressive 4-3 scheme on defense.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/233416-what-does-a-tenuta-coached-irish-defense-look-like

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm not an expert on the Chan years at GT, but there is someone here who is more of an authority.

 

Cool, I hope he speaks up. It's really what D scheme they were running 3-4 or 4-3 I was curious about

Wanting to know how much experience Gif Smith has with 3-4.

 

Bob Sanders was fired after the 2008 season when GB went 6-10 after advancing to the NFC title game the season before.

 

That part I knew. Packers D went from 26th in 2006 to 6th in 2007 under Sanders, then fell to 22rd again in 2008.

What I don't know and would like to, if anyone knows, is why they regressed?

Did Sanders lose the locker room, or prepare badly, or was he a "fall guy" for stuff not really his fault like injuries and lack of depth?

As I recall it wasn't just Sanders...Green Bay got out a broom and swept out the whole staff on the defensive side.

Whatever it was it worked for them...7th last year and 2nd this year. 'course it helps they got Raji and Matthews.

 

Jon Tenuta was the DC at Tech under Gailey. More recently, he was at Notre Dame under Weis. He runs an aggressive 4-3 scheme on defense.

 

http://bleacherrepor...fense-look-like

 

So would it be correct to say DL coach Gif Smith has little experience coaching 3-4 DL, as well as no prior NFL experience?

[Sisyphean Bills]

So would it be correct to say DL coach Gif Smith has little experience coaching 3-4 DL, as well as no prior NFL experience?

Giff was a good recruiter and had a good network across the Peach State. To say he is inexperienced in the 3-4 and at the NFL level would be quite fair.

[BillsVet]

Cool, I hope he speaks up. It's really what D scheme they were running 3-4 or 4-3 I was curious about

Wanting to know how much experience Gif Smith has with 3-4.

 

That person spoke up already about 25 minutes before your post.

 

Sanders was a holdover on Mike Sherman's staff in 05 and became DC in 07. GB's defense had issues holding onto leads in the 4th quarter in 08 and I've read multiple places that Sanders had problems with in-game adjustments.

 

Sanders in Green Bay

 

Giff Smith appears to have coached his entire career in the college ranks with the 43.

[LynchMob23]

If you look at most coaching staffs, there is a strong incestuous relationship between the coaches. Because the hire/fire rate is as bad as it is, many will just surround themselves with people they know. Moreso in an environment where the coach has a specific focus. There are some exceptions, such as the Steelers with Tomlin.

 

For a great example, take a look at the Eagles and Packers coaches and how well they know A) Andy Reid or B) Mike Holmgren.

[Bob in STL]

OK, let me say up front: I have never done this kind of deep dive into another team's coaching staff.

So I rely on you, my fellow "up against the Stadium Wall" friends, to help me: is this typical, or off the reservation?

 

Bottom line: most of our coaches and assistants are strongly connected to Gailey either through his tenure at the Chiefs, or his tenure at Georgia Tech.

I suspect this is typical around the NFL: head coaches bring in people whose work they know and respect and build loyalty by giving opportunity for a "step".

The good news: the staff presumably works well with and is willing to be led by Chan.

The bad news: since Chan hadn't been a HC since '99, we have minimal NFL experience and a lot of assistant coaches with Georgia Tech ties.

 

Potential problem: we have a bunch of assistant coaches on the DC side who are tied more tightly to Chan than to Edwards; only the DB coach Catavolos has ties to Edwards.

The OLB coach knew Chan in Mia and lost his job to Edwards; The DL coach is from GTech and has no prior experience in the NFL. If you've got an in with my boss, do I feel free to critique or even direct? How well is dissent handled? I'm told all head coaches are born control freaks, but Chan is an offensive-minded coach and needs a strong DC.

Does Edwards suck, or does he lack a free hand with most of his ass'ts tied to Chan more than to him? It can be a "CLM" to dish the buds of the boss.

 

The firing: Demontie Cross, ILB coach, was the only DA without prior ties to Chan or Edwards.

Was he not working well with the team/not doing his job well? He's one of two Fewell coaching holdovers; did he speak out too freely about problems this year?

Or was he fired because a sacrificial goat was needed and he's the guy who lacked the "previous colleague" card?

 

The question: Do our coaches really know what it takes to excel in the NFL or even to win, both in the prep. the coaches must put in or the prep. of the players?

If not, how can we get there from here?

 

Of all the units on our team, I would say the QB and WRs have made the biggest step up. Coincidence that those are the coaches who were apparently brought in on merit?

 

Our D and O coaching staff. Ties to Gailey are bolded; Ties to Edwards in italics.

Nix - OC for Chiefs '08, GTech '02-07, OC for Mia '00-01, HC Dal '98-99

Offensive Staff

OC: Modkins Den RB '09 Chiefs RB '08 GTech DB, RB '02-07

TE: Bicknell Chiefs OL/TE '07-09, Temple '06, NFL Europe OC '04-'05

QB: Cortez CFL 18 years

OL: D'Alessandris Chiefs '08-09 GTech '02-07

asst OL: Bobby Johnson IU '05-'09

WR: Hixon Wash '04-'09, LSU '00-'03

QC/scouting: Patullo Chiefs QC '07-08 UAriz '04-06

DC: G. Edwards Mia LB '05-09, Cle LB '04, Wash DC '03, Dal LB '98-01

DB: Catavolos Buf DB '06-10, Det '04-05, Wash '02-'03

ILB: Cross Buf LB/ass't '06-'10, IowaSt '01-'05

OLB: Sanders Buf '09-'10, GB DC '06-08 LB '05, Mia LB '01-04

DL: Gif Smith Buf '10, GTech '04-09

QC/scouting: White Buf ''08-'10

 

Personal knowledge is a time-honored method of talent acquisition.

It works when the decision makers know 'the best'. It's an epic fail when the only talent personally known to the decision makers is 2nd rate.

 

 

Good work. You certainly put a lot into that post.

 

As long as I have followed football there is one constant. Head Coaches bring in "their people". They bring in guys they know and trust. Guys who will coach or teach their system.

 

In the case of Cross, he obviously stayed on his merit from his previous work. Unfortunately, he did not have a 3-4 background and our ILBs suffered for that. You can blame Chan for keeping him, or you can applaud Chan for giving him a shot. Sometimes things work out, other times they don't. Cross will land on his feeet and will most likely appreciate that Chan gave him a shot.

 

The bigger concern is Edwards, not Cross. Edwards has never been a DC before. His sphere of influence with position coaches may be limited because of that. Chan's selection of Edwards is something that will be scrutinized throughout his tenure as HC. If Edwards turns out to be the next Buddy Ryan then Chan will be a genious. If Edwards is not adequate then Chan is open for second guessing. I suspect that Chan will give Edwards another year.

[CardinalScotts]

Good work. You certainly put a lot into that post.

 

As long as I have followed football there is one constant. Head Coaches bring in "their people". They bring in guys they know and trust. Guys who will coach or teach their system.

 

In the case of Cross, he obviously stayed on his merit from his previous work. Unfortunately, he did not have a 3-4 background and our ILBs suffered for that. You can blame Chan for keeping him, or you can applaud Chan for giving him a shot. Sometimes things work out, other times they don't. Cross will land on his feeet and will most likely appreciate that Chan gave him a shot.

 

The bigger concern is Edwards, not Cross. Edwards has never been a DC before. His sphere of influence with position coaches may be limited because of that. Chan's selection of Edwards is something that will be scrutinized throughout his tenure as HC. If Edwards turns out to be the next Buddy Ryan then Chan will be a genious. If Edwards is not adequate then Chan is open for second guessing. I suspect that Chan will give Edwards another year.

If you took the DC position with the players we have and were required to change to a 3-4 without the players to do it, which the head coach finally realized about week four allowed then to go to a 4-3. Still no players on defense that is not your fault, no pass rush, no LB's etc. Then after one year your told your out because our players are good enough (which is essentially what you would be saying) who would want to fill those shoes. You don't just keep switching coordinators every year - there is NO reason he should be fired. Was I upset with him - yes in a way but I'm asking for marginal players (Pos, Kelsay, Whitner) to make plays for us because we have no one else. Also the LB's we ran out there were comical, this year wasn't as much about the X's and O's than the Jimmy and Joes.

[Zulu Cthulhu]

No arguments from me and great post hopeful. Quite a "good ol' boy" network chan has going.

[RealityCheck]

Good work. You certainly put a lot into that post.

 

As long as I have followed football there is one constant. Head Coaches bring in "their people". They bring in guys they know and trust. Guys who will coach or teach their system.

 

In the case of Cross, he obviously stayed on his merit from his previous work. Unfortunately, he did not have a 3-4 background and our ILBs suffered for that. You can blame Chan for keeping him, or you can applaud Chan for giving him a shot. Sometimes things work out, other times they don't. Cross will land on his feeet and will most likely appreciate that Chan gave him a shot.

 

The bigger concern is Edwards, not Cross. Edwards has never been a DC before. His sphere of influence with position coaches may be limited because of that. Chan's selection of Edwards is something that will be scrutinized throughout his tenure as HC. If Edwards turns out to be the next Buddy Ryan then Chan will be a genious. If Edwards is not adequate then Chan is open for second guessing. I suspect that Chan will give Edwards another year.

Nice voice of reason. This is the least talented Bills team that I have ever seen in my lifetime. This coming season will be extremely telling in terms of where this team is headed.

[Bob in STL]

If you took the DC position with the players we have and were required to change to a 3-4 without the players to do it, which the head coach finally realized about week four allowed then to go to a 4-3. Still no players on defense that is not your fault, no pass rush, no LB's etc. Then after one year your told your out because our players are good enough (which is essentially what you would be saying) who would want to fill those shoes. You don't just keep switching coordinators every year - there is NO reason he should be fired. Was I upset with him - yes in a way but I'm asking for marginal players (Pos, Kelsay, Whitner) to make plays for us because we have no one else. Also the LB's we ran out there were comical, this year wasn't as much about the X's and O's than the Jimmy and Joes.

 

 

I was not suggesting that Chan fire Edwards.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Bob in STL

[Hapless Bills Fan]

That person spoke up already about 25 minutes before your post.

 

Sanders was a holdover on Mike Sherman's staff in 05 and became DC in 07. GB's defense had issues holding onto leads in the 4th quarter in 08 and I've read multiple places that Sanders had problems with in-game adjustments.

 

Sanders in Green Bay

 

Giff Smith appears to have coached his entire career in the college ranks with the 43.

 

Thanks, BillsVet. I'm glad I put the time into that post, I got some good info back and some good discussion.

[Helpmenow]

Nice voice of reason. This is the least talented Bills team that I have ever seen in my lifetime. This coming season will be extremely telling in terms of where this team is headed.

Should have seen some teams of 60's and 70's