Bob in STL Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Q: Why do the Bills take a high 2nd round DT pick if they know he won't be getting playing time because he is behind your best D-lineman? It almost sounds like the Bills weren't sure what front ( 3-4 or 4-3 ) they would be playing this year. I'm still not sure what from they are playing. 1. Depth is critical. Kyle Williams is not a true 3-4 NT although he played very well this season and earned Pro Bowl honors. He cannot play the nose on every down. Baltimore took Cody and they already have Ngata and others. They want depth. 2. Good defenses rotate linemen all the time. Fresh players make big plays as the game progresses and the OL starts to wear down. 3. The Bills played both 3-4 and 4-3. Many of the 3-4 defenses of today are hybrids and play both formations. Unfortunately, we have below average talent to be effective at either scheme. Edited January 9, 2011 by Bob in STL
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 1. Depth is critical. Kyle Williams is not a true 3-4 NT although he played very well this season and earned Pro Bowl honors. He cannot play the nose on every down. Baltimore took Cody and they already have Ngata and others. They want depth. 2. Good defenses rotate linemen all the time. Fresh players make big plays as the game progresses and the OL starts to wear down. 3. The Bills played both 3-4 and 4-3. Many of the 3-4 defenses of today are hybrids and play both formations. Unfortunately, we have below average talent to effective at either scheme. Good post & the bolded part is what I love to hear from the Bills. Don't make players fit a system. Make the system fit the players. Plus, you can never ever have enough d-linemen.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Troup, like Carrington, did fine. Played a ton, now know how to prepare for next season. They, like D Bell and the other newbie o line guys will get stronger and bigger in the offseason.. and will come back ready for better play next season. I liked his locker cleanout interview. Nothing out of line or inappropriate but he sounded disgusted by the D performance this year. If he takes that attitude into the the weight room and other off season prep he could contribute next year.
LancasterSteve Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Apparently he had a nice game against the Steelers: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/12/15/re-focused-week-14-browns-at-bills/ I vaguely remember that. Ya but the next game: Torell Troup (-0.8) didn’t back up his best game of the season from his last game against Pittsburgh, returning to mediocre performances. …
John from Riverside Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Just what do you expect out of Troupe? He is a NOSE TACKLE.....they are supposed to tie up blockers and eat spaced so linebackers make plays.... You say he hasnt made any plays....I saw him make several tackles and SOME of them were downfield....he moves VERY well for a player of his size. I was very impressed with that.
Thoner7 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays. You make some decent points by comparing Troupe to other in his class, but I thought those guys werent any good either. Dan WIlliams played like a shopping cart in college and was completely dominated by 1 blocker the entire Alabama game. Cody played less than half of his defenses snaps in college and his conditioning was a huge issue and still seems to be. I didnt want to draft a big fat guy who would eat himself outta the league. And I never saw Cam Thomas so ill leave that out. So now we reached for a guy who had a rough year and Im supposed to feel better because everyone else stunk too? Sorry if I dont. Lamar Houston might be listed as a DT in the drafthistory page but he played DE for the Raiders, similar to Neal in GB and Odrick in Mia. College players that played inside but in the pros were projected to play DE in a 3-4. Out of the group that people wanted for NT, you can argue Troup had a better year statistically than his peers. Are you going to tell me that Troup can't become stronger and be better and more consistent with hand technique? I guess time will tell. What I like about Troup is that it seems that he will put the work required to be better. Ys I know that.
LancasterSteve Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Actually I think on a bad team it takes longer. If you put him say on the Jets' D-line,if he makes some mistakes the guys around him can hide them Plus as an opposing offesne, you'r more worried about the other guys, there's no one on the Bills D except maybe Williams that you need to worry about. So everyone takes someone one on one. Easy to make a rookie look bad. D linemen seem tto take longer to develop with the exception of a guy whose main job is pass rushing. I recall Bruce Smith having trouble fist few seasons particually against the run. Spot On ! linemen be it defensive or offensive take time to develope and you are correct it even took Bruce Smith a few seasons to become the Pro bowl DE that he eventually became. Smith worked his rear off to lose weight and gain strength.
LancasterSteve Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) Ya but the next game: Torell Troup (-0.8) didn’t back up his best game of the season from his last game against Pittsburgh, returning to mediocre performances. … I tried to edit my post but was denied. Never happened before but I am now using my laptop. So a C&P will work Anyhoo here is what I wanted to add: And I should add that it takes time for linemen to develope. So its to be expected that a player like Troup will have his ups and downs. Three years to judge linemen. Edited January 9, 2011 by LancasterSteve
John from Riverside Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Ya but the next game: Torell Troup (-0.8) didn’t back up his best game of the season from his last game against Pittsburgh, returning to mediocre performances. … Rookies do that
lets_go_bills Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Troup didn't play much, he's a rookie. DT is not an easy position to learn or play and the transition from college to the pros is tough. The Bills say they're a 3-4 put spent much of the season in a 4-3. It was a mess and it looked sloopy, naturally yielding poor results. Due to a lack of personnel, the defense struggled in its transition to the 3-4. I expect Nix to draft a number of defensive players who suit the 3-4 to further aid in the transition and allow the Bills to actually deply a base 3-4 defense. Troup has a lot to learn but he was a fantastic run stuffer in college and as this defense is built and shaped, he'll find his place and contribute. I'm not making any conclusions after only one season. As Nix and Gailey have gone on record saying, we're building for the future.
jumbalaya Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 This fan base has gotten to the point where if a player doesn't win Rookie of the Year or goes to the Pro Bowl in his 1st year then he's a bust. So sad. But with all of the high picks we had we should have at least one from the first round that shows something in their rookie year.
jester43 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Good lord some people are just...Nevermind. IF YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD TAKE 2-3 YEARS TO REBUILD THIS MESS OF A TEAM NIX/GAILEY ACQUIRED THEN YOU ARE PRETTY NAIVE. If Troupe and Carrington are as good as the Good Ol' Boys think they will be in a few years (maybe as soon as next year), then the wait will be worth it. Yes they could have taken someone who may have started quicker but longterm these guys have more potential in the eyes of Nix and company. Look at the best teams in the league, they're loaded with talent up and down the team. Why? Because they build within. They develop players, they let them learn and when the time is right they plug them in. so what you're saying is that makes perfect sense the team went backards this year. ok. buddy himself said we're closer than you think on the day he was hired. i don't think he would have considered 4-12 a step forward then, do you? now all of a sudden we are losing more than we did under jauron, but it's obviously all part of a big master plan. bull ****. ralph didnt want to look for a real gm and you pollyannas all have yourself convinced that drafting a bunch of high round guys who are invisible is part of his master plan. you're like those knights in mony python who get their arms and legs chopped off and claim you got'em right where you want'em.
Peter Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Very good post. If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays.
Wagon Circler Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 The OP happens to be right. Troupe showed very little this year. He may develop or....he might not. Certainly there was nothing to dissuade the Bills from going DT in the first round. The jury is still out on this draft; Year 1 was not too good.
coastalpika Posted January 10, 2011 Author Posted January 10, 2011 Again.. I am not saying the guy is a bust I am just asking if anyone else noticed what I witnessed this season. I hope he proves me wrong and kicks ass next season but it is going to take a ton of work.. As far as those who say we picked him as a 2-3 year project.. Only the Bills would take a 2-3 year project in the 2nd round when there was starting talent in critical positions available. It seems like every pick we have had over the past decade has been a 2-3 year project who is never on the team when 3 years rolls around.
Green Lightning Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 wtf? how the hell is a team as bad as ours taking 2-3 yr projects in the 2nd round?! you're telling me that by the time the second round comes we're already drafting "projects?" then nix and gailey are worse than i thought! Just watched BJ Ragi - big time 1st rounder with a couple of years under his belt - play a so so game. TT will progress nicely. He very young with the necessary frame to get bigger and stronger. If we're going to be fair Thoner, it should be mentioned that there were three other "nose tackle type" players that were being harped upon last year at this time and leading up to the draft: Dan Williams Terrence Cody Cam Thomas Williams (26th overall) did very little on a very bad Arizona Cardinals defense. He was schooled this year, looking lost most of the season. Cody (57th overall and a TSW favorite) saw very few snaps after failing his conditioning test as a rookie with the Baltimore Ravens. Thomas (146th overall) did have two sacks…among his 5 total tackles. Troup (41st overall) had as good if not a better year than any of the other top nose tackle prospects. Troup also is listed at 315 pounds but played near 350 earlier in his college career. He took up running to slim down and increase his endurance because he didn't want to be a fat piece of poop. He's a dedicated athlete. If he needs to bulk up, I'm sure he will. As for Troup's strength, probably he'll need to increase his lower body strength but at the combine he had 34 bench presses which is an excellent number. Troup was a 3.5 year starter in college and a team captain. I have zero concerns that this guy will become a good starter on this team…regardless of what position he plays. Yep. I should have kept reading before I posted because San Jose has it nailed.
billsfan89 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 From the Lions game to the Dolphins game both Troup and Carrington's playing time increased and they played solid but unspectacular. The team as a whole played like crap in the last two games. I actually thought that both guys looked good at times its just that those times were few and far between. Its really wait and see with both guys. Give them another off-season to better prepare and digest a year in the NFL and we will see what they truly have to offer. One of the criticisms I had of Gailey was that he didn't give both those guys more snaps. When Troup played he wasn't that bad yet he didn't see a meaningful increase in playing time. Gailey should have given both guys more playing time early on as to get a better grasp of what they had.
Hplarrm Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 The silliest thing about this thread is that a big part of the reason Troup did not get anywhere #1 NT reps on this 3-4 team with only one DT slot is that in order for Troup to play that means you have to sit the lone Pro Bowl qualifier on this team Kyle Williams, I do not think this would have or should have happened. Quite frankly anyone disappointed by the not bad back-up to a Pro Bowler #s which Troup put up are simply spouting a lot of non-football assessment. In fact arguably one of the reasons that the Bills began to play more 4-3 this year rather than their base 3-4 is that Troup played well enough that this was a better team playing with the traditional 2 DT set-up than they did with an LB corps not only ravaged by injuries but Poz had trouble picking up the 3-4 ILB set-up and our OLB simply proved to be weak,
Dr. Trooth Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 If Troup wants to be a stud nose tackle, he needs to spend less time in the weight room and more time in the cafeteria. 315 lbs. and not much of a belly won't cut it. More pasta, less meat. Another 25 - 30 lbs. should do it.
Green Lightning Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 If Troup wants to be a stud nose tackle, he needs to spend less time in the weight room and more time in the cafeteria. 315 lbs. and not much of a belly won't cut it. More pasta, less meat. Another 25 - 30 lbs. should do it. He was that big early on in college but ran to lose the weight because he wanted to be an every down player with stamina, not a fat pig like Cody. TT has a massive frame. Our strength coaches are emphasizing squats and lower body power. With a year of training and a year of NFL under his belt, I bet he comes back in spring somewhere around 330-335 and that is plenty of size if it's power and not lard.
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